Faith - Fact

[Profound Realization]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

Seems to me also. Such as the evolution of the measure of awareness and confidence/trust in abstracts and/or physical.

Faith-fact are as a ceaseless chain of intertwining causes and effects. Seeds that grow/change into differing measures of confidence/trust until fully bloomed and revealed. Gradual or instantaneous confidence/trust into knowing.

Likely many reasons as to war... individuals divided within themselves and having internal wars with themselves, individuals offended by a mere word, individuals looking to blame, individuals looking to win something, or feel superior to someone else, individuals who will argue relentlessly, individuals who indirectly or unknowingly feel a need to be in control of others, control of definitions, but the #1 reason for me are individuals who aren't yet aware of their own faith/confidence/trust.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Let me sum up how I understand what you are saying.
Your saying,
People should not put faith in fact.

and I am saying,
People should always put faith in fact.

but there only words perhaps I understand wrong.

Everybody in this thread seems to get the very idea of "faith" wrong, from my own point of view. Too many people claim to have "faith" in this or that -- and then spend the vast majority of their lives behaving as if they did not. How many Christians go to church for 50 minutes on Sunday, and spend all of the rest of the weeks behaving in ways that Christ himself would have vilified the Pharisees and Sadducees for? I know them, and you know them, and the answer is "most."

"Faith" isn't about believing -- it's about living, about how you live, about what actually informs your actions as you go about the business of living.

"True faith" is something that you could not act in a contradictory way to. The person who truly believes with perfect faith could not act in a way that denies that faith.

I would, in fact, prefer to use a word like "authenticity" to "faith."

 

[bobhikes]

Everybody in this thread seems to get the very idea of "faith" wrong, from my own point of view. Too many people claim to have "faith" in this or that -- and then spend the vast majority of their lives behaving as if they did not. How many Christians go to church for 50 minutes on Sunday, and spend all of the rest of the weeks behaving in ways that Christ himself would have vilified the Pharisees and Sadducees for? I know them, and you know them, and the answer is "most."

"Faith" isn't about believing -- it's about living, about how you live, about what actually informs your actions as you go about the business of living.

"True faith" is something that you could not act in a contradictory way to. The person who truly believes with perfect faith could not act in a way that denies that faith.

I would, in fact, prefer to use a word like "authenticity" to "faith."

Our brain use dual modes for solving day to day problems Logic is a rather slow one, emotions are quicker and older. Emotions are our first reactions in emergency circumstances this is where faith evolved as a trust in our emotions. The reasons religions adopted the word faith is because it was already known and used by people. Using emotions for decisions in not authentic or factual.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Okay lets look at it this way, I'm a child in school and I get to the grade where I am told about where I live, I'm told that the earth is round, they show me pictures(pre-Photoshop, I think/hope), I can't fight with those picture so I accept the idea, again because I can't fight it. This idea is reinforced all through out my education so I don't even question it any more even though I haven't proved it to my self. I trusted my teachers, I put my faith in those facts. I didn't make them facts but I trust the system that supposedly made them into facts.

In a sense, you have a point; in that the education systems worldwide are tainted with misinformation and utter BS. Take, for example, the outlandish claim of Texas and other Southern states claiming that the American Civil War was about "State's Rights"; not about "Slavery"; or educational curriculum stating as "fact" that the planets were formed by dust particles drawing themselves together (which is the most likely hypothesis; but this hypothesis failed computer simulations and other tests -- because these textbooks have difficulty saying 'We're not sure how the planets got here, but the most probable explanation, based on available evidence, is: ..... ").

We live in an age of misinformation and where junk science, altered history and false conclusions are pumped into our lives through mainstream media and the internet. It is arguably more important than ever, in our day and time, to understand critical thinking, fact checking, inductive and deductive reasoning, and logic;because those who lack those skills can so easily fall prey to a wide range of ridiculous, unsubstantial, even disprove ideas such as "Sandy Hook was a government operation carried out by a Manchurian Candidate"; "There was no plane at the Pentagon"; "The Earth is flat"; "Bigfoot is real"; "We have audio recordings of Hell"; "Spaceships crashed at Roswell"; "No man has ever been to the moon"; "the military shot down TWA 800"; "MH370 disappeared because the Rockefellers were on board"; "Dandelions can cure cancer"; and a host of other unadulterated, imaginative lies that someone, somewhere, wants you to believe.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Faith-fact are as a ceaseless chain of intertwining causes and effects. Seeds that grow/change into differing measures of confidence/trust until fully bloomed and revealed.

Rubbish.

This is the most basal reason why rationalists have such a hard time dealing with the believer.

So if I (or we) "believe" hard enough that Santa Clause is real, then that seed of belief will cause a baby Santa to start growing in the North Pole or some dude will put on a Santa suit and start gaining weight; and if the confidence and trust in that idea is of sufficient measure, ten Santa will become fully bloomed and revealed?

I know this world you live in. Its called "Fantasyland"; I go there once a week when I sit around with my friends and play "Dungeons and Dragons". The difference is, though, when I remove myself from the table, I understand that it wasn't real.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

I'd agree that faith is the mother of fact- but the child doesn't always respect it's parents!

when we acknowledge our beliefs, our faith as such, we are open to questioning them, we recognize other people may have different beliefs.

'fact' is when faith is denied, 'blind faith' - faith which does not recognize itself . the belief now becomes 'intellectually superior', even 'undeniable' now those with different beliefs become inherently inferior, 'justifying' having their beliefs attacked

denying faith and claiming fact- this is where the anger, the problems always begin, is it not?


case in point


“Evolution is a fact. Beyond reasonable doubt, beyond serious doubt, beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt, beyond doubt evolution is a fact...


Therefore....

“It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked,

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

denying faith and claiming fact- this is where the anger, the problems always begin, is it not?

Hey, you've got a great point, there, Guy! After all, the Inquisitions, the Crusades, the mass suicides of Heaven's Gate/People's Temple ... these acts of faith certainly aren't problems; but someone asserting evolution to be fact? Now THAT'S a PROBLEM!

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

“It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked,

Uh, let's finish the quote:

" To claim equal time for creation science in biology classes is about as sensible as to claim equal time for the flat-earth theory in astronomy classes. Or, as someone has pointed out, you might as well claim equal time in sex education classes for the stork theory. It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).

If that gives you offence, I'm sorry. You are probably not stupid, insane or wicked; and ignorance is no crime in a country with strong local traditions of interference in the freedom of biology educators to teach the central theorem of their subject.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Uh, let's finish the quote:

" To claim equal time for creation science in biology classes is about as sensible as to claim equal time for the flat-earth theory in astronomy classes. Or, as someone has pointed out, you might as well claim equal time in sex education classes for the stork theory. It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).

If that gives you offence, I'm sorry. You are probably not stupid, insane or wicked; and ignorance is no crime in a country with strong local traditions of interference in the freedom of biology educators to teach the central theorem of their subject.

How kind of you!

Point being; was the link between claiming fact, and intolerance towards differing beliefs, which Dawkins demonstrates perfectly here. And yes, it can happen in organized religion also.

I have a completely different belief, I think Dawkins could not be more wrong about the fundamental nature and mechanisms driving diversity in life. I agree with the late Curator of the Chicago Field museum, that much fiction has crept into evolutionary text books that does not serve scientific education well.


But I feel no hatred or disdain towards people who believe in evolution, I think they are overwhelmingly perfectly intelligent, decent, honest people who are looking at the same evidence and reaching different conclusions

there is nothing wrong with this, science could never progress otherwise.

...and anyone who disagrees with this is a #$#$%#*%!

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Point being; was the link between claiming fact, and intolerance towards differing beliefs, which Dawkins demonstrates perfectly here.

He is overly strident at times; but I do wish to point out that, in the quote in its entirety, the focus of his attack is not on people who think differently (though they do get some splash damage) but on the idea of introducing these ideas in classrooms.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

He is overly strident at times; but I do wish to point out that, in the quote in its entirety, the focus of his attack is not on people who think differently (though they do get some splash damage) but on the idea of introducing these ideas in classrooms.

In that instance yes, but both the statements are obviously stand alone , they apply to any skeptic of evolution,- i.e. the vast majority of free thinking humanity, and he has repeated similar in other situations.

I was taught in school about global cooling imminently bringing the next ice age, that oil would run out by 2000, that socialism is a great economic system- I believe such teachings created a lot of real world problems

One difference with Darwinian evolution, it's an abstract academic theory, inherently speculative, I don't think it would be a bad thing to highlight some of the problems with it, some alternate possibilities.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

One difference with Darwinian evolution, it's an abstract academic theory, inherently speculative,

It is neither abstract nor speculative.

 

[Milton Platt]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

Perhaps faith is understood to be belief without evidence and confidence in evidence (rather than faith) underlies acceptance of a fact.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

Facts are discovered. I don't see how faith applies past the premise as to whether something is actually true or not.

 

[Tmac]

Facts are discovered. I don't see how faith applies past the premise as to whether something is actually true or not.

Like Columbus discovered America.

Am I right in thinking that you think of faith as the force that that initiated the search for the fact and that when the fact is known, faith isn't there anymore, is that what I hear you saying?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Like Columbus discovered America.

Am I right in thinking that you think of faith as the force that that initiated the search for the fact and that when the fact is known, faith isn't there anymore, is that what I hear you saying?

It's close.

I like using parachute coat man as an example of faith. ;0)

Franz Reichelt believed his parachute coat would not fail him, he actually jumped off the Eiffel Tower and promptly killed himself in spite of his earlier promises to use a test dummy to ascertain if that was the case
or not. As Franz probably realized halfway down that faith alone maybe wasn't as good a method as he had hoped.

 

[Tmac]

It's close.

I like using parachute coat man as an example of faith. ;0)

He actually believed his parachute coat would not fail him, he actually jumped off the Eiffel Tower and promptly killed himself in spite of his earlier promises to use a test dummy to ascertain if that was the case
or not. As Franz probably realized halfway down that face alone maybe wasn't as good a method as he had hoped.

Why make something up when you have the Wright Brothers?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Why make something up when you have the Wright Brothers?

It's not made up. It actually happened.

I made some corrections on my post to clarify.

You responded while was editing. :0)

 

[Tmac]

Perhaps faith is understood to be belief without evidence and confidence in evidence (rather than faith) underlies acceptance of a fact.

You what I just realized, you don't know what faith is, to you its just word in a book. WOW. thank you.

 

[Tmac]

It's not made up. It actually happened.

I made some corrections on my post to clarify.

You responded while was editing. :0)

I am well aware of humanities early attempts at flight, some of which actually make me laugh, but in the end the laugh was on me because, we're flying.