Faith is being sure...

[PureX]

You missed my point.

The Bible uses "faith" in the sense I talked about (loyalty to God and trust that God will keep his promises), not the way you suggested (firm belief without proof).

I'm failing to see the difference. How is "loyalty to and trust in God" not "firm belief without proof"?

It appears to me that "firm belief without proof" is exactly what the Bible and what many subsequent religious organizations are constantly touting as being "faith".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm failing to see the difference. How is "loyalty to and trust in God" not "firm belief without proof"?

It appears to me that "firm belief without proof" is exactly what the Bible and what many subsequent religious organizations are constantly touting as being "faith".

The religious organizations maybe, but have a look at all of Hebrews 11 to see the verse from the OP in context.

Paul's argument is basically "even though the future is invisible to us, there's compelling evidence that God is trustworthy and keeps his promises, so we're justified in trusting that he'll keep his promise to us. Paul is arguing that God's past track record is as good as proof about what he'll do in the future.

The even larger context of Hebrews 10-11 is good to remember as well. This letter wasn't a theological exposition on the nature of "faith," even that's how many Christians try to proof-text with snippits of it. It was a motivational message to Christians who were suffering, Paul was encouraging them to think about the "long game" to help endure their suffering and difficulties, and to remind them that their struggle would be worth it in the end and that God's reward was certain even if it was currently invisible (because it was in the future).

 

[Brian2]

I as previously stated in another thread I would not apply the claim of proof to either position. Yes if is folly to apply any standard of proof to one's religious convictions.

And yet you do claim "proof" about your ideas on parts of OT history that are not proven or disproven.

 

[PureX]

The religious organizations maybe, but have a look at all of Hebrews 11 to see the verse from the OP in context.

Paul's argument is basically "even though the future is invisible to us, there's compelling evidence that God is trustworthy and keeps his promises, so we're justified in trusting that he'll keep his promise to us. Paul is arguing that God's past track record is as good as proof about what he'll do in the future.

There is no benevolent "track record" in a world that is still constantly trying to kill us. Yet we're being asked to just blindly presume that somehow, in the future, this will all be different, thanks to a God that is not doing us any favors in the present. Why is God promising us anything? Why isn't God just giving it to us, now?

This isn't a proposal of faith. It's a religion excusing it's own ineffectiveness because it doesn't understand what faith is, or is about. It only understands control. And is only about gaining and maintaining control.

The even larger context of Hebrews 10-11 is good to remember as well. This letter wasn't a theological exposition on the nature of "faith," even that's how many Christians try to proof-text with snippits of it. It was a motivational message to Christians who were suffering, Paul was encouraging them to think about the "long game" to help endure their suffering and difficulties, and to remind them that their struggle would be worth it in the end and that God's reward was certain even if it was currently invisible (because it was in the future).

What Paul was pushing, and what far too many religious adherents to this day push, as well, is BLIND BELIEF, not faith. Real faith does not need to make any excuses or future promises on behalf of the gods. It either works when we act on it, or it doesn't. And either way, we can learn, and adapt our hopes, and act again.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

So then, where does faith come from?

According to Romans 10:17, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."

 

[Nakosis]

There is no benevolent "track record" in a world that is still constantly trying to kill us. Yet we're being asked to just blindly presume that somehow, in the future, this will all be different, thanks to a God that is not doing us any favors in the present. Why is God promising us anything? Why isn't God just giving it to us, now?

This isn't a proposal of faith. It's a religion excusing it's own ineffectiveness because it doesn't understand what faith is, or is about. It only understands control. And is only about gaining and maintaining control.

What Paul was pushing, and what far too many religious adherents to this day push, as well, is BLIND BELIEF, not faith. Real faith does not need to make any excuses or future promises on behalf of the gods. It either works when we act on it, or it doesn't. And either way, we can learn, and adapt our hopes, and act again.

So, where does faith come from?
What is the source of faith?

 

[Nakosis]

According to Romans 10:17, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."

Something in common with fakenews.

We hear something repeated often enough, we begin to accept it as true.

Yet with some of Jesus' disciples Jesus just told them to follow him and they came. This seems a different kind of faith doesn't it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is no benevolent "track record" in a world that is still constantly trying to kill us. Yet we're being asked to just blindly presume that somehow, in the future, this will all be different, thanks to a God that is not doing us any favors in the present. Why is God promising us anything? Why isn't God just giving it to us, now?

This isn't a proposal of faith. It's a religion excusing it's own ineffectiveness because it doesn't understand what faith is, or is about. It only understands control. And is only about gaining and maintaining control.

What Paul was pushing, and what far too many religious adherents to this day push, as well, is BLIND BELIEF, not faith. Real faith does not need to make any excuses or future promises on behalf of the gods. It either works when we act on it, or it doesn't. And either way, we can learn, and adapt our hopes, and act again.

You didn't read the chapter, did you?

 

[jimb]

Something in common with fakenews.

We hear something repeated often enough, we begin to accept it as true.

Yet with some of Jesus' disciples Jesus just told them to follow him and they came. This seems a different kind of faith doesn't it?

Not in the slightest. Jesus said "Follow me" and they did. So they heard what Jesus said and had faith to follow Him.

 

[Nakosis]

Not in the slightest. Jesus said "Follow me" and they did. So they heard what Jesus said and had faith to follow Him.

Where did their faith come from?

 

[jimb]

Where did their faith come from?

Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ."

 

[2ndpillar]

Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ."

Apparently, according to your quote, your "faith" comes from the "word" of the false prophet Paul (Romans 10:17).

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Apparently, according to your quote, your "faith" comes from the "word" of the false prophet Paul (Romans 10:17).

In your opinion, at least.

 

[jimb]

It is unfortunate that the Bible as been divided into individual verses, as the original source documents had no such divisions, as this very often leads to people intentionally taking individual verses out of context to prove (often false) doctrine. An example is Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ."

Here is the context...

Romans 10:14-21, " But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.

But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have:

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth
and their words to the ends of the world.”
Again I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

“I will use those who are not a nation to make you jealous;
with a foolish nation I will provoke you.”
Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Paul, in his letter to the church at Rome, quotes Isaiah to demonstrate how peoples' faith from hearing the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. But he also shows that not all who hear the message believe it.

So faith comes through hearing the good news and believing it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I like to go with Abdul'baha on this subject.

I don't.
There is no proof that God exists, only evidence.
If there was proof that God exists then God's existence would be an established fact.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

 

[Trailblazer]

So, where does faith come from?
What is the source of faith?

It comes from oneself. It is an inner thing.

 

[Nakosis]

It comes from oneself. It is an inner thing.

So like an inner spirit that directs you?

 

[Trailblazer]

So like an inner spirit that directs you?

No, is is not like that, at least not for me.
Faith stems from a belief, which is an inner conviction that something is true.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

 

[PureX]

So, where does faith come from?
What is the source of faith?

Faith is the choice we make to take action based on the possibility that our hoped for outcome will be achieved. It 'comes from' the simple fact that we don't know what will happen. We are not 'assured' or 'convinced' of anything. We are simply willing to trust and act on a valuable possibility as a way to move forward through a world that we do not understand or control.

 

[jimb]

Faith is the choice we make to take action based on the possibility that our hoped for outcome will be achieved. It 'comes from' the simple fact that we don't know what will happen. We are not 'assured' or 'convinced' of anything. We are simply willing to trust and act on a valuable possibility as a way to move forward through a world that we do not understand or control.

We are assured! "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1