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Faith is Dangerous

Truth&Hope

Jesus Freak
quote-in-the-beginning-there-was-faith-which-is-childish-trust-which-is-vain-and-illusion-elie-wiesel-47-53-82.jpg


Faith that God or the universe has some benevolent plan for you.

Thousands are killed daily, go hungry are homeless. There are no guarantees in the universe. No reason to believe the the universe is going to take your best interest into consideration. No reason to believe your future is bright.

My son believes the universe/God has a special plan for him. That he just needs to wait for the universe/God to reveal it.

Who has been watching out for him are his mom and dad. Parents who sacrifice so he has a place to live and food to eat. Not everyone has parents who are able or wiling.

Is it not folly to assume that someone or something exists that will watch out for your best interests? Or that tomorrow you will have a place to sleep. Food to eat. A family to rely on?

I think about the thousands on families in Ukraine who have lost their homes, parents who have lost their children, children who have lost their parents. Who are now homeless.

Faith is a luxury no one can afford.

Faith in people and the world is never good.
God is always good; have faith in Him only.
All the bad things in world are the result of sin; which humans choose everyday.
Everyone wants free will but not the consequences that come with those choices.
 

Truth&Hope

Jesus Freak
All faith has inherent risk. Faith is as likely to let you down as support you.
Certainly the ideal is to reduce the reliance on faith as much as possible.

The more one relies on faith the more likely something will go wrong.
Validate whenever possible. Faith as a last resort.
The opposite is true for me: have faith in only Him, who should always come first. He is the only one hasn’t disappointed me and not having faith in Him means death in every sense of the word.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The best thing about this is that no one sees themselves as being in that comforting lies queue, when in fact, we all are.

"They're all stupid of course, but I strive for truth and really do see the world as it is!" :D
The nice thing about facts is, you can test your belief.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
The nice thing about facts is, you can test your belief.


The danger is though, that in putting all one’s faith in that which can be calibrated, measured, and contained, one forgets that the infinite can be neither measured nor contained; indeed, it cannot even be envisaged. And infinities keep finding their way into every model of the universe, as much so in science as in philosophy. We limit ourselves unnecessarily, when we mistake all that we see, for all that there is.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The danger is though, that in putting all one’s faith in that which can be calibrated, measured, and contained, one forgets that the infinite can be neither measured nor contained; indeed, it cannot even be envisaged. And infinities keep finding their way into every model of the universe, as much so in science as in philosophy. We limit ourselves unnecessarily, when we mistake all that we see, for all that there is.
Well, for infinities and infinitesimals we have maths.
What we don't have is a scientific or mathematical theory of value. That is still in the realm of philosophy and religion.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Faith in people and the world is never good.
God is always good; have faith in Him only.
All the bad things in world are the result of sin; which humans choose everyday.
Everyone wants free will but not the consequences that come with those choices.
As if you know those things
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The danger is though, that in putting all one’s faith in that which can be calibrated, measured, and contained, one forgets that the infinite can be neither measured nor contained; indeed, it cannot even be envisaged. And infinities keep finding their way into every model of the universe, as much so in science as in philosophy. We limit ourselves unnecessarily, when we mistake all that we see, for all that there is.

Who makes that mistake? That would be
really stupid.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
Actually, it is really not that bad. Life comes with it's ups and downs. Keeps things interesting. You just take life as it comes at you.
I like to improve my ability to handle whatever life throws at me.
No expectation for the good or bad. Just the knowledge of having been able to handle everything myself.

In that case I think you have hope and belief that there is chance for good.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
What makes you think that not hoping to win the lottery or some other fantasy is " no hope"?

Seems you are confused where the folly is.
1213, next time dont delete the context
and have me go look for it,
if you want an answer.

You speak of " no hope" as if what you
guess might happen after you die is the only
hope or motive.
Its not.
Its folly to think that.

Oh, and if you only want Christian affirmation,
stay away from atheists, your group,dors not own
this forum.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Faith in people and the world is never good.

That's a very sad, and cynical assertion.

God is always good; have faith in Him only.

I don't believe in any deity, or deities. I've also read enough of the biblical deity to find this assertion very dubious, even as a hypothetical, and of course good is an entirely subjective notion.

All the bad things in world are the result of sin

Sin is just unevidenced superstition, so I don't believe it is real, and again bad is another entirely subjective term.

Everyone wants free will but not the consequences that come with those choices.

I find that claim extremely dubious as well, but since all you have offered is yet another bare assertion, there is not much to debate.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
The danger is though, that in putting all one’s faith in that which can be calibrated, measured, and contained, one forgets that the infinite can be neither measured nor contained; indeed, it cannot even be envisaged. And infinities keep finding their way into every model of the universe, as much so in science as in philosophy. We limit ourselves unnecessarily, when we mistake all that we see, for all that there is.
God of the gaps.
 
The nice thing about facts is, you can test your belief.

Unfortunately a very large component of our worldview and consequent experience of reality is mediated via highly subjective and untestable factors.

In addition, the sciences show us we are incapable of being consistently rational, are prone to all kinds of biases and our emotions and ideologies makes us unable to evaluate many "facts" neutrally and can even leave us unable to perform basic feats of reasoning when they lead to conclusions that go against our deeply held beliefs

It requires one to be either misinformed or delusional to believe they actually are rational and really do see the world as it is.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
What utter nonsense, if anything it's the other way around, many people who suffer substance abuse problems, seem unable to cope, and turn to theistic belief as a crutch. I've seen this happen many times.

Its a very common testimony
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Unfortunately a very large component of our worldview and consequent experience of reality is mediated via highly subjective and untestable factors.

In addition, the sciences show us we are incapable of being consistently rational, are prone to all kinds of biases and our emotions and ideologies makes us unable to evaluate many "facts" neutrally and can even leave us unable to perform basic feats of reasoning when they lead to conclusions that go against our deeply held beliefs

It requires one to be either misinformed or delusional to believe they actually are rational and really do see the world as it is.

You very well describe am issue with
religious beliefs.
Religion is all about emotions and " faith"-
A highest virtue is to believe anyway even
if all the data in the universe goes against you.




With science though, a highest value is the
opposite- question everything, TRY to
be objective, not shun it like its from the devil !

And you dont get 40,000 science - sects
each with the Truth they feel is correct.

One needs facts and a coherent theory,
when someone' s work is fraudulent,
slipshod or otherwise off the rails,
theres others kind of like outriggers
to keep things on a steady keel.

Nothing is perfect but religion is set up
to make sute it goes wrong and cant be corrected.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have learned to accept that largely and mostly things are just simply out of my control. There is no despair in that.

Agreed.

Acceptance is the fifth and final stage of grief for those that can get there. It was a few decades ago that I began to suspect that America as I knew it was disappearing and being replaced with something I could neither love nor respect. Initially, I received that I would learning that any loved one was terminally ill - acute grief. Eventually, I came to accept that this was OK. I have also gone through that process with the future of humanity. When I was younger, I was aware that man could self-destruct, but didn't expect it. I still thought that the likeliest future was better than the present. No more. Now I expect man to fail and do terrible damage to himself, other life, and clean environments. Too bad, but I've accepted it, and no longer grieve over it.

I think I might have gotten some of that from my experience with hospice, and the whole idea of accepting reality even if it is that an illness won't be getting better. I would see family members that could not do that dashed emotionally against the rocks every time their loved one lost another step, whereas those accepting the inevitable also suffered, but not in the same way, and not as much.

Without faith life and nature would fall apart. Without faith love, sex, and friendship are dead.

That's incorrect. I can vouch for that personally.

Of course, my definition of faith may not be yours. Look at the assortment of definitions we have seen in this thread, ranging from hope to courage to "the conviction that everything is as it should be." My definition of faith is insufficiently supported belief. You have a belief. Can you demonstrate that it is correct? Then it's not believed by faith. Are you unable to do that? Then you believe by faith. This definition cuts like a hot knife through butter. Any discussion using the word faith is easily resolved.

I should add that I consider holding unjustified belief undesirable in every case, even in those who consider it necessary for coping. It would be better if that could be done without holding insufficiently justified belief as I described above when describing the apparent demise of America and mankind et al.. No "it will all work out" or "It's in God's hands" is necessary. It's OK that there may be no god involved and that things not work out well if that's what's coming.

All men and women of faith have courage, sure.

Where's the courage in faith? Faith is effortless. One chooses what one wants to be true without contemplation or examination.

Here's what takes courage:

Try standing up like the bipedal ape you were born to be, and look out into the universe, which may be almost empty, and which may contain no gods at all. And then face and accept the very real possibility that we may be all there is for light years.

Accept that you may be vulnerable and not watched over.

Accept the likelihood of your own mortality and finititude.

Accept the reality of your insignificance everywhere but earth, and that you might be unloved except by those who know you - people, and maybe a few animals.

Because as far as we know, that's how it is.

Once one has reached this place, religion has nothing to offer unless one is just interested in social standing or fellowship in a religious community. Once faith is rejected as a path to truth, one's worldview then derives from the application of reason to evidence and to one's moral intuitions.

So blind trust in science is just as bad as blind trust in religion.

Blind trust is needed for religion, since there is nothing to observe - no evidence - but not for empiricism. I trust it because it works. Nothing blind there.
 
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