Faith is not evidence. This is why atheism has more of an advantage.

[Berlin]

People do that all the time. It's called 'base jumping,' and it depends entirely on what one is wearing: wing suit or parachute. Oh, and it also depends upon whether one is willing to deal with the legal consequences of making it down alive. It's not legal most places.

............and y'know what? I honestly don't know about anybody passing a law against something that isn't physically possible.

Oh, yeah....and I have personally walked on water, and we can even arrange virgin births. We haven't split any seas yet, or changed water into wine (except by the slow way), but we DO heal lepers and by the standards of Jesus' time, we can certainly revive the dead. We're working on the 'make the lame to walk' bit, and are quite successful at it. We can even cause blind men to see, and the deaf to hear.

So it would be a good idea not to characterize all of the miracles of the Bible as 'physically impossible.' Quite a few of them are not; it is just a matter of knowing how to do it.

Ok. That's it. I'm outta here. Base jumping is not the same as walking off a roof without a parachute. And the virgin birth you speak of still took a human effort to make possible. I'm done. Finished. Thank you for helping me stick to science.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

.....and HOW many Christian belief systems are there, Berlin? Every one of them believe in the Bible. A few of them insist that it be taken literally, but even those few differ one from another in how to interpret it.

And you are setting up a false dichotomy here. There ARE more choices than 'take the bible literally' and 'toss it out."

You're absolutely right... there are THOUSANDS of choices. One of those choices is even to write your own addendum! Just pick up a pen and go to town! It's worked in the past, as you should very obviously know.

 

[socharlie]

Isn't it even referenced in scripture that God doesn't leave evidence of himself just lying around? "Blessed are those that have not seen, and yet believe." or some such. This is basically acknowledgement that it is going to be tough to believe in God because there is no way to witness Him. I, personally, believe that ideas like that were inserted by the writers because they knew how unsubstantiated their position was - they knew how ludicrous their claims were - and it left them extremely insecure (and rightly so). So they attempted to preempt what they knew would be some of the people's concerns over aspects of their writings by writing in reverse-psychology traps like this.

Bob (potential convert): "I've never witnessed anything directly from God, but the text claims that He did give others that very chance in the past. Why should I believe, when now He seems unwilling to give us the same chance?"
Biblical writer: "Didn't you read what I wrote?! You can be even MORE blessed if you haven't seen God but still believe!!!!"

it is a bit more complex: " 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God"
The key is "knew" which is "gnontes" - special knowledge that required and usually is not given without effort and cannot be obtained in atheist setting.

 

[Naama]

I know I don't have evidence.

I just interpret the world the way I do because of the way I'm raised and I'm okay with that.

I don't think I'm strong enough to be an atheist and I really admire them.

 

[dianaiad]

Ok. That's it. I'm outta here. Base jumping is not the same as walking off a roof without a parachute. And the virgin birth you speak of still took a human effort to make possible. I'm done. Finished. Thank you for helping me stick to science.

What...moving the goal posts? You did NOT specify that these things had to be done in a manner not understandable, or duplicated, by humans using methods they discovered using the scientific method.

you did NOT, for instance, specify that the one jumping off the roof cannot be wearing a wing suit or a parachute.

This reminds me of an old story about a castaway who prayed to God for deliverance. One day, mid prayer, a couple of fishermen came along in their boat and offered to get the castaway off his rock, but the castaway turned them away, saying that he had faith that God would deliver him. The NEXT day a launch showed up to get him...it was from a large cruise ship. The Castaway again sent them away, saying that God would deliver him. Finally a coast guard helicopter landed next to the castaway, and offered to take him off...and again the Castaway said 'no, thanks..." and it flew away.

Nobody else came, and the castaway died of hunger and thirst. When he got to the Pearly Gates, He met God and was irate; "I was a faithful worshiper, and I prayed to you all the time for rescue, and you never came!"

God said :"I sent a fisherman, a luxury cruise ship and a helicopter. What else did you want?"

Seems to me that those who cry 'science!" as the solution to all things and don't consider that it is POSSIBLE for God to do things in a way that we might be able to describe or comprehend....these people are as silly as those who insist that when there is a seeming conflict between their interpretation of scripture and science, that science should be utterly discarded.

Both sides are using the same argument...and that argument is flawed.

 

[Quintessence]

What I'm saying is the only reason there is a God argument is because people believe there is one. However, there is no evidence of a God at all, and that cannot be disputed.

Yes, it can. Did you miss my earlier post?

Also, there have been many Gods throughout history. Whey have most of them disappeared.

They haven't gone anywhere. Study religion and theology more.

We now know that the Gods are sending lightning down, causing storms or initiating earthquakes. No one believes in Thor, Zeus, Apollo, etc. anymore.

False. Paganisms are alive and well. Furthermore, if you think that this is accurately represents how Pagan theology really works... well... again, you have a lot of studying to do about religions.

 

[dianaiad]

You're absolutely right... there are THOUSANDS of choices. One of those choices is even to write your own addendum! Just pick up a pen and go to town! It's worked in the past, as you should very obviously know.

Or.....God could call prophets today just as He did for the OT and the NT. I do believe that there is more to it than just 'picking up a pen' and 'go[ing] to town."

But that is not the topic of this thread.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

it is a bit more complex: " 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God"
The key is "knew" which is "gnontes" - special knowledge that required and usually is not given without effort and cannot be obtained in atheist setting.

But don't you understand how convenient all of that is? Just like writing in that, in the end times, there will be many who do not believe. In my opinion it is all a ruse. Clever tricks to try and get people to doubt themselves and sign up for the belief system.

"Look! The Bible says right here that you wouldn't believe! It knew it all along, therefore it is ALL TRUE!"

And it is completely convenient that it is esoteric and requires "special knowledge" that "can't be obtained in [an] atheist setting." Then you can blame the atheists for not believing because they insist on remaining "in an atheist setting." What the heck is an "atheist setting" anyway?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Or.....God could call prophets today just as He did for the OT and the NT. I do believe that there is more to it than just 'picking up a pen' and 'go[ing] to town."

But that is not the topic of this thread.

In my honest opinion, God cannot call on prophets today. Because in my realm of knowledge and belief, god doesn't exist.

So, from that frame of reference, it was only ever about picking up a pen and "going to town".

However you are right, not the topic of this thread.

 

[sayak83]

Yes, it can. Did you miss my earlier post?



They haven't gone anywhere. Study religion and theology more.



False. Paganisms are alive and well. Furthermore, if you think that this is accurately represents how Pagan theology really works... well... again, you have a lot of studying to do about religions.

I have never quite understood how atheists came to believe that pagans gods were invented to explain lightning, earthquake etc. Even a cursory look at Egyptian writings or current shamanic religions for example shows otherwise.

 

[InChrist]

Not one shred of proof has been shown that proves the existence of God. People only know what they've been told and shown in a book. Science has testable evidence that is in your face daily. For me, following science makes sense.

Thank about it - most of us believed in Santa Claus with the same passion as a deity until we knew better. I used to listen for the sled and hooves landing on my roof or a very fat man squeezing down my chimney. I believed it because it's what I was told for several years. I don't see any difference in religion.

Last, if you believe in the Bible, you must believe every text in it literally. There is no room for riddles or interpretations. We know there are things in this world that are physically impossible. Just because it's in the bible, doesn't mean a miracle allowed an incident to negate physics. A man lived in the belly of a big fish for 3 days, Moses parting the red sea, Noah being able to squeeze 2 of every animal species on to a boat (which means he was able to feed, remove all feces, keep them from eating/fighting each other for the entire journey)? This is physically impossible. Two of every species of animal would not fit into the ark mentioned in the Bible.

Please join this discussion and explain your views.

Thanks.

If there is a Creator God with the ability to create the heavens and the earth, the entire universe, then from my perspective the physical impossibilities you assume to be impossible for a human or in the natural world, would not be so for such Being who controls the physical elements, as the scriptures indicate...

But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” Luke 18:27

For with God nothing will be impossible.” Luke 1:27

I think anyone sincerely looking for evidence for the existence of God finds an overwhelming amount...

http://christinprophecy.org/articles/israel-as-proof-of-gods-existence/

Israel and Prophetic Proof Part I

Prophecy

 

[Phantasman]

Existence (awareness) is taken for granted. Things just came together and viola, we became a complex biped, with strategically placed organs and a brain to challenge every corner of the Universe.

I guess accidents have consequences. I just see much more complexity in life/awareness than ABC. Just because we cannot see it, or understand it, means that it doesn't exist.

 

[Audie]

What...moving the goal posts? You did NOT specify that these things had to be done in a manner not understandable, or duplicated, by humans using methods they discovered using the scientific method.

you did NOT, for instance, specify that the one jumping off the roof cannot be wearing a wing suit or a parachute.

This reminds me of an old story about a castaway who prayed to God for deliverance. One day, mid prayer, a couple of fishermen came along in their boat and offered to get the castaway off his rock, but the castaway turned them away, saying that he had faith that God would deliver him. The NEXT day a launch showed up to get him...it was from a large cruise ship. The Castaway again sent them away, saying that God would deliver him. Finally a coast guard helicopter landed next to the castaway, and offered to take him off...and again the Castaway said 'no, thanks..." and it flew away.

Nobody else came, and the castaway died of hunger and thirst. When he got to the Pearly Gates, He met God and was irate; "I was a faithful worshiper, and I prayed to you all the time for rescue, and you never came!"

God said :"I sent a fisherman, a luxury cruise ship and a helicopter. What else did you want?"

Seems to me that those who cry 'science!" as the solution to all things and don't consider that it is POSSIBLE for God to do things in a way that we might be able to describe or comprehend....these people are as silly as those who insist that when there is a seeming conflict between their interpretation of scripture and science, that science should be utterly discarded.

Both sides are using the same argument...and that argument is flawed.

While I am an atheist, I still agree with your statement. Flawed, indeed.

I think a Dr. R. Feynman quote is relevant here-

"Religion is a culture of faith. Science is a culture of doubt."


I will put in that neither offers more than false certainty.

 

[Nakosis]

Please join this discussion and explain your views.

Thanks.

Some folks have experiential relationships with their god or gods. So it's not scientific evidence, it anecdotal evidence. Of course one can make a much stronger case with scientific evidence. However it hard to deny a spiritual experience you've experienced for yourself.

 

[Quintessence]

I have never quite understood how atheists came to believe that pagans gods were invented to explain lightning, earthquake etc. Even a cursory look at Egyptian writings or current shamanic religions for example shows otherwise.

It's not just atheists that believe this, though; it's a common thing claimed by Westerners who live in monotheist-dominated land in general. In public school, I remember being taught that Paganisms were dead, and that Pagan mythology was an explanation for natural phenomena. The notion of Paganisms being dead is straight up wrong, and brushing off Pagan mythology as merely explanatory is not in keeping with more contemporary study of religion. But... what gets taught in public schools tends to be a few decades (or more) behind the current trends in academia, so it is what it is.

It does mean that whenever I see someone floating arguments like the OP does, though, I basically go with "study more religion."

 

[Nakosis]

Not sure what you mean by that. For instance, are you saying faith is evidence of your god? And what do you mean by "love proves it"?

Possessing faith is proof that God gave you faith and the love you feel for God proves your faith.

I'm just guessing, but I was to saying something like that, it'd be close to what I'd ment.

If you get a real answer from MF please ignore this post.

 

[Naama]

It's not just atheists that believe this, though; it's a common thing claimed by Westerners who live in monotheist-dominated land in general. In public school, I remember being taught that Paganisms were dead, and that Pagan mythology was an explanation for natural phenomena. The notion of Paganisms being dead is straight up wrong, and brushing off Pagan mythology as merely explanatory is not in keeping with more contemporary study of religion. But... what gets taught in public schools tends to be a few decades (or more) behind the current trends in academia, so it is what it is.

It does mean that whenever I see someone floating arguments like the OP does, though, I basically go with "study more religion."

Isn't Paganism today different than Paganism is the past though?

 

[Naama]

Possessing faith is proof that God gave you faith and the love you feel for God proves your faith.

I'm just guessing, but I was to saying something like that, it'd be close to what I'd ment.

If you get a real answer from MF please ignore this post.

But many people feel faith for their own gods and spirits and such. It doesn't prove that the God we believe exist.

 

[socharlie]

But don't you understand how convenient all of that is? Just like writing in that, in the end times, there will be many who do not believe. In my opinion it is all a ruse. Clever tricks to try and get people to doubt themselves and sign up for the belief system.

"Look! The Bible says right here that you wouldn't believe! It knew it all along, therefore it is ALL TRUE!"

And it is completely convenient that it is esoteric and requires "special knowledge" that "can't be obtained in [an] atheist setting." Then you can blame the atheists for not believing because the insist on remaining "in an atheist setting." What the heck is an "atheist setting" anyway?

I do not exactly blame atheists , not completely, they are not really hopeless, belief system does not come first - one forms it based on knowledge, many atheists have closed minds - they have means to overcome that knowledge draw back it just may be harder for some of them, but easier than stepping over their closed minds.

 

[Naama]

I do not exactly blame atheists , not completely, they are not really hopeless, belief system does not come first - one forms it based on knowledge, many atheists have closed minds - they have means to overcome that knowledge draw back it just may be harder for some of them, but easier than stepping over their closed minds.

But how are any of us any different?