Faith is not evidence. This is why atheism has more of an advantage.

[socharlie]

But how are any of us any different?

intuition

 

[Audie]

I have never quite understood how atheists came to believe that pagans gods were invented to explain lightning, earthquake etc. Even a cursory look at Egyptian writings or current shamanic religions for example shows otherwise.

Seriously? What could be more obvious than that
"gods", "spirits" or whatever were concocted to explain the unknown?

This is not quite the same thing, but an acquaintance
spent a good many years in a native American community.

There were two hills nearby, in otherwise mostly flat country.

The story was that a giant had been carrying a big rock, but dropped it. It broke, the smaller hill actually looks as if it could have been the top of the bigger one.

I kinda dont think anyone saw it happen.

But everyone in the town knows about it.

My friends informant was an elder lady who said
her grandmother had thought up the story when
as a child she asked her grandmother how those
hills got there. It was only years later that she w as told that granny just made that up. But by then "everybody" knew it! And now it is true.

Parallels to such as Noahs ark, say, are of course,
unintended.

 

[Naama]

intuition

?

But people have differing intuition about different things. And a lot of it has to do with how we are raised. I know I practice my religion because I was raised in it.

 

[Quintessence]

Isn't Paganism today different than Paganism is the past though?

Yes, just as any religion of today is different than its precursors in the past. In case you weren't following the conversation, the OP was claiming nobody worships some of the historical Pagan gods anymore. This is simply untrue. They're under the mistaken impression that these practices have gone away. They have not. Contemporary Pagans approach worship of historical gods with varying concern for historical accuracy, but there's definitely still an active community that honors these traditions.

 

[Audie]

I do not exactly blame atheists , not completely, they are not really hopeless, belief system does not come first - one forms it based on knowledge, many atheists have closed minds - they have means to overcome that knowledge draw back it just may be harder for some of them, but easier than stepping over their closed minds.

Lots of everybody have closed minds.

Hardly anyone has a more closed mind than a YEC.

They will do just about anything to escape the realization that their faith is based on nonsense.

 

[WalterTrull]

And "there you have it" - God is inserted into yet another gap.

Yup. Thing is, it's not a real gap, just in our understanding. A whole bunch of qualities have been attributed to God. Don't know about them. My definition of God is what fills that gap. (Well, one of them)

 

[Naama]

Yes, just as any religion of today is different than its precursors in the past. In case you weren't following the conversation, the OP was claiming nobody worships some of the historical Pagan gods anymore. This is simply untrue. They're under the mistaken impression that these practices have gone away. They have not. Contemporary Pagans approach worship of historical gods with varying concern for historical accuracy, but there's definitely still an active community that honors these traditions.

Oh okay.

Yes I have many pagan friends, they just told me that their Paganism isn't as icky as a lot of Paganism of old.

 

[Nakosis]

But many people feel faith for their own gods and spirits and such. It doesn't prove that the God we believe exist.

I think the theory is that you, or mankind really, is incapable of faith on their own.

Kind of a axiom for some Christian beliefs. Folks who accept a axiom don't usually feel the need to justify it.

Kind of ends up being a catch 22 though. You believe because of God's grace. You don't belief because you lack God's grace. Either way God is a self-evident part of the equation. Kind of interesting how folks create truths to support what they already believe.

 

[Kenny]

Not one shred of proof has been shown that proves the existence of God. People only know what they've been told and shown in a book. Science has testable evidence that is in your face daily. For me, following science makes sense.

Please join this discussion and explain your views.

Thanks

I respect your position but I see it rather more like two people looking at the same evidence and coming to two different interpretations.

As Rabbi Hirchel said:

G-d's Torah need not teach us that there is G-d: "The heavens relate the glory of G-d. And the expanse tells of the works of His hands" (Ps. 19). The overwhelming regularity governing the orbit of the firmament's immense multitude, the never-changing course of day and night, the mysterious laws of nature which tie earth with heaven, light and rain, life and growth-all, the smallest and the largest, reveal an Almighty Creator: for there is no "law" without a "Law-Giver."


This world is full of laws. Universal law of gravitation, Laws of planetary motion, Newton’s law of motion, Laws of thermodynamics, Theory of general relativity.

All of these laws would never have existed without the lawgiver God. Everything created with purpose.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

All of these laws would never have existed without the lawgiver God. Everything created with purpose.

I will always find it more correct to state that all we know is that the universe exists, and it exists with employment of the specific "laws" of functioning that we can/have discerned. Beyond that in this particular arena, we know nothing.

 

[Sapiens]

If there is a Creator God with the ability to create the heavens and the earth, the entire universe, then from my perspective the physical impossibilities you assume to be impossible for a human or in the natural world, would not be so for such Being who controls the physical elements, as the scriptures indicate...

But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” Luke 18:27

For with God nothing will be impossible.” Luke 1:27

I think anyone sincerely looking for evidence for the existence of God finds an overwhelming amount...

Israel as Proof of God's Existence | Jews | Lamb and Lion Ministries

Israel and Prophetic Proof Part I

Prophecy

The problem is that the Exodus can be definitively shown to be fictional, which reduces all the rest of your case to similar historical fiction and fable.

None of This Really Happened

 

[Audie]

The problem is that the Exodus can be definitively shown to be fictional, which reduces all the rest of your case to similar historical fiction and fable.

Kinda like Flood that way.

 

[Cary Cook]

Faith is not evidence.

Faith is not the substance of anything either.
I don't do faith - unless it is defined so broadly as to include all probability judgment. But I don't need faith (as the term is normally used) to believe a Supreme Being created the first created thing, and that a God (Supreme Being or otherwise) created this universe.

I must either believe that, or believe life evolved from non-life for no apparent reason.

 

[Naama]

Faith is not the substance of anything either.
I don't do faith - unless it is defined so broadly as to include all probability judgment. But I don't need faith (as the term is normally used) to believe a Supreme Being created the first created thing, and that a God (Supreme Being or otherwise) created this universe.

I must either believe that, or believe life evolved from non-life for no apparent reason.

Um as someone who believes in God I would beg to differ if you don't mind....

Because if God exists then nothing created the first thing because God was the first thing.

 

[socharlie]

Lots of everybody have closed minds.

Hardly anyone has a more closed mind than a YEC.

They will do just about anything to escape the realization that their faith is based on nonsense.

partially agree with you on YEC.

 

[blü 2]

Not one shred of proof has been shown that proves the existence of God. People only know what they've been told and shown in a book. Science has testable evidence that is in your face daily. For me, following science makes sense.

You're saying that conclusions honestly reasoned from examinable evidence have a solid foundation and stories (of themselves) don't.

I agree. Not everyone does. How would you plan to persuade them to leave their comfort zone?

if you believe in the Bible, you must believe every text in it literally. There is no room for riddles or interpretations.

No, that's not right. All the Christian believers of my close acquaintance think the bible is a spiritual resource, not one to use for science, history, or other fields of factual enquiry, and they don't read the bible much at all. And to my observation, only a small percentage of Christians ever do, and a vastly smaller percentage read it critically. Instead they've been told about it by practitioners of religion, and that seems to suit them fine.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Not one shred of proof has been shown that proves the existence of God. People only know what they've been told and shown in a book. Science has testable evidence that is in your face daily. For me, following science makes sense.

Thank about it - most of us believed in Santa Claus with the same passion as a deity until we knew better. I used to listen for the sled and hooves landing on my roof or a very fat man squeezing down my chimney. I believed it because it's what I was told for several years. I don't see any difference in religion.

Last, if you believe in the Bible, you must believe every text in it literally. There is no room for riddles or interpretations. We know there are things in this world that are physically impossible. Just because it's in the bible, doesn't mean a miracle allowed an incident to negate physics. A man lived in the belly of a big fish for 3 days, Moses parting the red sea, Noah being able to squeeze 2 of every animal species on to a boat (which means he was able to feed, remove all feces, keep them from eating/fighting each other for the entire journey)? This is physically impossible. Two of every species of animal would not fit into the ark mentioned in the Bible.

Please join this discussion and explain your views.

Thanks.

What makes you think, that Noah fed those animals, there is nothing written that Noah as feeding those animals.

I think your missing something. But then you know nothing about animals.

It only rained upon the earth for 40 days and 40 nights. That means, about
5 and half weeks. Go Figure, theres about
30 to 31 days in a Month.
So you have about 5 and half weeks, which would equal 40 days and 40 nights.

Seeing you have no idea what that fish was. You see it as an average fish, as we know a fish to be.
Therefore you have no idea what that fish was.

Two of every kind of animal could fit on the ark. If you had any idea how that would work.

You Go Figure how all these things are possible. It's not only easy, but also very simple to figure it out.
Just as easy as 2+2=4.

But I want to hear your analogy of it.

 

[sayak83]

Seriously? What could be more obvious than that
"gods", "spirits" or whatever were concocted to explain the unknown?

This is not quite the same thing, but an acquaintance
spent a good many years in a native American community.

There were two hills nearby, in otherwise mostly flat country.

The story was that a giant had been carrying a big rock, but dropped it. It broke, the smaller hill actually looks as if it could have been the top of the bigger one.

I kinda dont think anyone saw it happen.

But everyone in the town knows about it.

My friends informant was an elder lady who said
her grandmother had thought up the story when
as a child she asked her grandmother how those
hills got there. It was only years later that she w as told that granny just made that up. But by then "everybody" knew it! And now it is true.

Parallels to such as Noahs ark, say, are of course,
unintended.

I think it is quite clear to those who have studied Native American religion that there is much more substance there than a series of nice storied myths about the landscape.

 

[sayak83]

Isn't Paganism today different than Paganism is the past though?

Here is an example of a continuous Pagan religion.
Yoruba religion - Wikipedia

 

[blü 2]

What makes you think, that Noah fed those animals, there is nothing written that Noah as feeding those animals.

Yes there is.

Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you, to keep them alive. 21 Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them." 22 Noah did this; he did all that God commanded him.​

You Go Figure how all these things are possible. It's not only easy, but also very simple to figure it out.

One of the many things I have trouble with here is the assumption that the earth is flat, which is innate in the whole rain in-rain out idea.