Walkntune
Well-Known Member
If I communicate from the heart no matter sincere or how much I come from a place of humility, it still seems to come across as dogmatic!Wise enough not to debate people about "wisdom."
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Faith Isn't Knowledge...Nor Should It Be
- Thread starter UntemperedSchism
- Start date
Looncall
Well-Known Member
Please define your terms. This comes across as meaningless.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
A friend of mine taught me this. I think he got it from Chuck Missler:Wise enough not to debate people about "wisdom."
Knowledge is learning with retention
Understanding is knowledge with perpective.
Wisdom is understanding with discernment.
Photonic
Ad astra!
Sounds like science to me.
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
I will try to in simple terms or from a simple example.You are not your thoughts.Thoughts seek out what is right or wrong or what is correct or not correct in order to control and fix problems or in order to just maintain control. It creates a false self or an ego.
If you can quiet your thoughts then you you discover the real you and the truth.The real truth only exists in the here and now and from your beingness.It does not exist in thoughts that are from the past and concerns of the future.They are not real and don't even exist and therefore no truth can be found in them but only what we percieve to be right and wrong or correct and not correct.
Eample
Most of the time pain is just a memory that we are holding on to. It does not exist anymore but we still hold on to it in thought and so therefore we can still feel it.We hold on to the pain and try and find a solution to fix it in our thoughts.We only seek right or wrong in thoughts to find justification to release the pain.You can let it go anytime you choose.In this way all of reality is distorted by trying to seek truth in thoughts as truth is only found in "beingness"meaning the here and now.Truth is you could have let go of the pain from the very beginning without the suffering and without trying to seek right or wrong in the thoughts for justification to let it go.For many this is what faith does.
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Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
It is not wise to confuse agreement with wisdom.You seem wise and intelligent!
Knowledge is a tricky thing, because most of what we "know" is really just what we believe to be true to the "best of our knowledge". Beliefs shift around a lot, especially as we gain new experiences that contradict expectations. That is completely natural. The ability to learn is key to our survival, but religious faith strives to isolate some beliefs from the scrutiny that they deserve.
Faith denies both experience and the ability to learn from failed expectations. Religion extolls faith, because religion itself is not grounded in direct experiences. It is grounded in trust of things that other people say--basically hearsay. And when it appears to fail our expectations--say when a devout believer suffers bad fortune--faith prevents one from arriving at new insights as to how nature really works. Thus, we still have people whose faith leads them to see God's wrath in hurricanes and earthquakes, natural events that have no direct cause in human obedience or disobedience. We also have people who put more faith in God to cure an illness than proven medical science, a delusion that can too often lead to death or permanent injury. Religious faith is difficult to maintain, and that is why it requires indoctrination from an early age and extraordinary measures to isolate it from our wiser thought processes.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
which begs the question, why is it so important to understand the scope of his power? is jesus insecure?
it's like a husband threatening his sickly wife, if she were to divorce him she will no longer be covered through his insurance...
the understanding is knowing the husband has the power to provider her coverage
the insecurity is why would you threaten someone you supposedly love?
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
Let me answer you with some of your own quote.
Perhaps I replied to her not because she agreed with me but because she understood the different points of view.
Survival from what? Ourselves?It seems mans knowledge can be very detrimental to the planet and environment.
If those who placed their faith in religion did not see that which they placed their faith in manifest then they would not continue.Through experience the faith grows.
Faith allows one to view nature and bad fortunes as it really is without trying to control or manipulate it.It keeps one from the state of denial.Like I said the intellect cannot be in truth but only in thoughts which become distorted in times of distress.
Knowledge is a tricky thing, because most of what we "know" is really just what we believe to be true to the "best of our knowledge".=Copernicus;2648190]It is not wise to confuse agreement with wisdom.
Perhaps I replied to her not because she agreed with me but because she understood the different points of view.
Survival from what? Ourselves?It seems mans knowledge can be very detrimental to the planet and environment.
Faith is faith. Religion is just one place people place it.Its not like you just choose to have it. You are born with it.It is knowledge that increases fear.You can dangle a baby off of a high rise building and it would just look at you and giggle.It has to learn to fear.
Without faith you just assume that which is in your intellect is true. Clearly from your fist statement that isn't so.
If those who placed their faith in religion did not see that which they placed their faith in manifest then they would not continue.Through experience the faith grows.
Faith allows one to view nature and bad fortunes as it really is without trying to control or manipulate it.It keeps one from the state of denial.Like I said the intellect cannot be in truth but only in thoughts which become distorted in times of distress.
You can never do away with faith or indoctrinate people not to have it.Its a silly notion.Every breathe you take you rely on it to be there by faith.When faith is gone,so are you.
Learning something is different than actually experiencing it.
Photonic
Ad astra!
Are you so desperate to classify everything outside of absolute knowledge as faith?
heretic
Heretic Knight
I think how deep is one's faith in a religion depends extremely on the proofs it had, there may be some who accept a faith without an evidence but sure it will not be in the same strength as this of who believe with evidences to their religion
I think people this time is more advanced mentally , and intangible evidences for religious facts is not acceptable as they were tens years ago, existence of God is one of the most hot debatable point since the beginning of humanity , understanding it differs according to the mental and spiritual maturity progress through the human history
God created man with many powers , the most important are the mental and the spiritual ones , and it will be wrong on people by God if he asked them to fulfill one and leaving the other. It's every individual right to build the sufficient knowledge that feed his/her faith .
I think for a religion to make people believe in it's proposed metaphysical concepts must build a level of trustiness , before asking them to believe.a level of trustiness is made through tangible , or scientific evidences, right explanations of natural laws and elements, when a level of trustiness is built it will be more acceptable to believe in religious explanation of metaphysical concepts
If Jesus came just to ask people to believe then there's no need for him , because to believe is an instinct and inner need , and we can see many religions and doctrines trying to build an image of God or the Devine being or at least to explain nature , but are they enough , are they true? How can I be sure if some religion is true or not ? Is the man really a messenger of God? is the proposed life style suits me?what about afterlife? A religion may be unable to answer such questions .
I don't agree we are people commanded to just believe , we have been made thinking beings and the normal way is to search , to know , to better believe
Yes it's more worthy to spend time to know better to increase my faith than justify my believes to others
I think people this time is more advanced mentally , and intangible evidences for religious facts is not acceptable as they were tens years ago, existence of God is one of the most hot debatable point since the beginning of humanity , understanding it differs according to the mental and spiritual maturity progress through the human history
God created man with many powers , the most important are the mental and the spiritual ones , and it will be wrong on people by God if he asked them to fulfill one and leaving the other. It's every individual right to build the sufficient knowledge that feed his/her faith .
I think for a religion to make people believe in it's proposed metaphysical concepts must build a level of trustiness , before asking them to believe.a level of trustiness is made through tangible , or scientific evidences, right explanations of natural laws and elements, when a level of trustiness is built it will be more acceptable to believe in religious explanation of metaphysical concepts
If Jesus came just to ask people to believe then there's no need for him , because to believe is an instinct and inner need , and we can see many religions and doctrines trying to build an image of God or the Devine being or at least to explain nature , but are they enough , are they true? How can I be sure if some religion is true or not ? Is the man really a messenger of God? is the proposed life style suits me?what about afterlife? A religion may be unable to answer such questions .
I don't agree we are people commanded to just believe , we have been made thinking beings and the normal way is to search , to know , to better believe
Yes it's more worthy to spend time to know better to increase my faith than justify my believes to others
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Walkntune
Well-Known Member
Does it take faith if you have absolute knowledge?
Photonic
Ad astra!
waitasec
Veteran Member
waitasec
Veteran Member
what can be outside of absolute knowledge or proof/evidence that you don't take on faith?
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
The boogie man?
waitasec
Veteran Member
The boogie man?
what does that mean?
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
Sounded like you asked me what exists outside of my knowledge and my faith?You got me?
"Faith" isn't knowledge, it's a substitute for or a supplement to knowledge.
Given our nature we have to have an opinion about various things outside of or beyond the reach of our senses. That aspect of our psychological make up is what got us this far: our early ancestors lacked the sensory acuity of other predatory species: we couldn't tell what was beyond the next hill or behind the next bush, etc., via our sense of smell, sight, or hearing so we had to learn to think abstractly. Whereas a tiger would know by it's sense of smell that an antelope had passed by a trail, and when, and which direction it had been moving in, our ancestors would have to look for signs---tracks, turds, broken brush---and deduce all of the above, and make predictions (educated guesses) based on those signs and whatever they had learned from experience as to what those signs meant and what that particular animals habits were in order to determine where the antelope might be now.
Once we became civilized, and all of our physical needs became routinely secure for the immediate future, that part of our minds that goes looking for knowledge, experience, and assurances beyond it's immediate surroundings and circumstances was set free to explore the non-physical, theoretical realities: Philosophy, religion, the arts, the sciences.
On a more personal level, each of us is constantly trying to make predictions and assessments about things beyond our immediate perception, we can't help it.
Since it's almost impossible to be emotionally indifferent to this process, emotionally speaking that leaves us with two choices: hope or fear.
Faith is choosing hope. To borrow a quote I believe I saw Jayhawker Soule use once, "We pray that we might live by our hopes rather than our fears".
It makes perfect sense. Unless someone is unusually disciplined, they're going to have an emotional attachment to things beyond their perception and beyond their control. Given that, what the choice ultimately comes down to is faith or neurosis.
Given our nature we have to have an opinion about various things outside of or beyond the reach of our senses. That aspect of our psychological make up is what got us this far: our early ancestors lacked the sensory acuity of other predatory species: we couldn't tell what was beyond the next hill or behind the next bush, etc., via our sense of smell, sight, or hearing so we had to learn to think abstractly. Whereas a tiger would know by it's sense of smell that an antelope had passed by a trail, and when, and which direction it had been moving in, our ancestors would have to look for signs---tracks, turds, broken brush---and deduce all of the above, and make predictions (educated guesses) based on those signs and whatever they had learned from experience as to what those signs meant and what that particular animals habits were in order to determine where the antelope might be now.
Once we became civilized, and all of our physical needs became routinely secure for the immediate future, that part of our minds that goes looking for knowledge, experience, and assurances beyond it's immediate surroundings and circumstances was set free to explore the non-physical, theoretical realities: Philosophy, religion, the arts, the sciences.
On a more personal level, each of us is constantly trying to make predictions and assessments about things beyond our immediate perception, we can't help it.
Since it's almost impossible to be emotionally indifferent to this process, emotionally speaking that leaves us with two choices: hope or fear.
Faith is choosing hope. To borrow a quote I believe I saw Jayhawker Soule use once, "We pray that we might live by our hopes rather than our fears".
It makes perfect sense. Unless someone is unusually disciplined, they're going to have an emotional attachment to things beyond their perception and beyond their control. Given that, what the choice ultimately comes down to is faith or neurosis.