Faith Isn't Knowledge...Nor Should It Be

[lunamoth]

But belief isn't necessary for living a good life, building yourself, family, and community, etc. So why count those as benefits of belief when they're not? If anything, examining belief systems of the world have many interpretations that actually limit the amount of good that you can do (for instance, by prohibiting you from voting for marital equality between heteros and homos), etc.

I have no problem voting for marital equality for heteros and homos.

Exactly how am I limited?

 

[Willamena]

That isn't entirely accurate...

(Just want to point out that it's also inaccurate because rationalization is the opposite of exercising reason and critical thought.)

 

[Penumbra]

Faith is usually improper methodology, imo. It doesn't provide a good mechanism for fact-checking or removing errors. The result of it is that people in different places all believe different things, and entirely different views of metaphysics are believed.

Contrasting this with science, or believing that which has sufficient evidence, knowledge is more certain and uniform, and growing. For instance, different cultures don't all have various opinions on what the speed of light is, but they do all have different opinions on what god is. Weeks ago when scientists announced they discovered neutrinos traveling at superluminal velocity, a portion of the worldwide scientific community jumped at the data and came up with explanations, such as one of the more likely scenarios of improper measurement with the GPS satellite. Proper methodology and fact-checking can increase knowledge and rule out errors.

If there aren't enough facts for something, then probabilities should be assessed, or the evidence needs to be analyzed and understood to still be a question rather than an answer. Weak varieties of evidence can and should lead people in the direction that they imply, but faith doesn't add anything to that scenario.

I think their argument is "If I'm correct, then infinite gain. If I'm wrong, then no loss."

However, they're not considering many actual and potential losses -- such as any time, effort, and money invested into the faith-based belief; or the possibilities they're failing to consider where some other faith is actually the "correct" one and that by believing in the "wrong" faith they've offended some other actual god(s) and will therefore suffer for it (rather than having "no loss.")

They may think "If I'm right, infinite gain. If I'm wrong, no loss." But it's actually something more like, "If I'm right, infinite gain. If I'm wrong, anything between no loss and infinite loss." Sounds like very poor odds to me -- and the height of irrationality to ignore critical thought processes when such stakes are the case.

It's interesting how widespread Pascal's Wager is, either by name or just by agreement.

Actually, the analysis is "if I'm right - gain, if I'm wrong - still
gain." The only way to lose is if one of few flavors of religion that insists they are the only way that is right, really is.

If I'm right, I've lived my life in a manner aligned with God's will. If I'm wrong, I've lived a good life and done things that build up myself, my family, my immediate community, and my world.

Some of this presupposes that you would not do these good things if not for your belief, which I find unlikely.

Religion influences the ethics of culture, and culture influences the ethics of religion, because religion is intertwined with culture and an aspect of it, but considering there are ethical and not so ethical varieties of all groups of people, I don't see how faith is a win/win scenario at all.

 

[lunamoth]

Some of this presupposes that you would not do these good things if not for your belief, which I find unlikely.

I certainly would not be out doing bad things without my religious beliefs, but I tend to do more good things because my faith continuously reminds me of my connection to all other people, and it focuses on hope and generosity; I am less focused on myself, or anxieties or worry.

 

[Penumbra]

I certainly would not be out doing bad things without my religious beliefs, but I tend to do more good things because my faith continuously reminds me of my connection to all other people, and it focuses on hope and generosity; I am less focused on myself, or anxieties or worry.

The faith gives hope for what? An afterlife, divine intervention for improvement of earthly human affairs, or something else?

(serious, non-sarcastic question, btw. I see a lot of people tie the concept of hope into faith and I don't usually know what angle they're establishing that connection from.)

 

[Quagmire]

(Just want to point out that it's also inaccurate because rationalization is the opposite of exercising reason and critical thought.)

Good point.

 

[lunamoth]

The faith gives hope for what? An afterlife, divine intervention for improvement of earthly human affairs, or something else?

(serious, non-sarcastic question, btw. I see a lot of people tie the concept of hope into faith and I don't usually know what angle they're establishing that connection from.)

Hope that all shall be well and all shall be well. Nothing more specific than that. I don't expect an afterlife or divine intervention.

 

[Quagmire]

Hope that all shall be well and all shall be well. Nothing more specific than that. I don't expect an afterlife or divine intervention.

Or that it already is. :yes:

 

[lunamoth]

Or that it already is. :yes:

Nice.

Except of course for the things that obviously are not well.

 

[Quagmire]

Nice.

Except of course for the things that obviously are not well.

Sometimes we just need to redefine "well".

 

[lunamoth]

Sometimes we just need to redefine "well".

I, for one, really appreciate Ibuprofen.

 

[Quagmire]

I, for one, really appreciate Ibuprofen.

Well then.

(and thanks for reminding me. My doc told me to start taking Ibuprfen every day almost a month ago. Only actually have once. )

 

[lunamoth]

Well then.

(and thanks for reminding me. My doc told me to start taking Ibuprfen every day almost a month ago. Only actually have once. )

You probably should not combine it with heavy drinking. Hard on the liver.

 

[Quagmire]

You probably should not combine it with heavy drinking. Hard on the liver.

How are you supposed to redefine "well" then?

 

[lunamoth]

How are you supposed to redefine "well" then?

I'm leaving that up to Sam Harris. He's going to figure it out using science.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I certainly would not be out doing bad things without my religious beliefs, but I tend to do more good things because my faith continuously reminds me of my connection to all other people, and it focuses on hope and generosity; I am less focused on myself, or anxieties or worry.

My lack of faith reminds me of my own personal responsibility and the precious nature of the short time that any of us truly has. Like your faith, my lack of faith also focuses on hope and generosity, and makes me less focused on myself, anxieties or worry.

I'm not sure how faith would represent a net benefit in this context.

 

[Averroes]

My lack of faith reminds me of my own personal responsibility and the precious nature of the short time that any of us truly has. Like your faith, my lack of faith also focuses on hope and generosity, and makes me less focused on myself, anxieties or worry.

I'm not sure how faith would represent a net benefit in this context.

Obviously that is how you define the void you call "lack of faith." I do not believe faith brings about narcissism, rather, it brings hope to a less-than-concrete reality.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Obviously that is how you define the void you call "lack of faith." I do not believe faith brings about narcissism, rather, it brings hope to a less-than-concrete reality.

I didn't say that faith causes narcissism (not in general, anyhow - maybe in specific cases, I suppose). My point is that - IMO, anyhow - I'm a generally good person and that I do have the feeling that my lack of faith informs this. OTOH, luna's also a generally good person and she says that her faith informs this.

I'm just pointing out that while we might get the impression from her case that faith makes her a good person, or from my case that lack of faith makes me a good person, if we consider both of us together, I think that the most logical conclusion is that faith - or lack thereof - is largely irrelevant to being a good person, despite both of our feelings to the contrary.

 

[Averroes]

I didn't say that faith causes narcissism (not in general, anyhow - maybe in specific cases, I suppose). My point is that - IMO, anyhow - I'm a generally good person and that I do have the feeling that my lack of faith informs this. OTOH, luna's also a generally good person and she says that her faith informs this.

I'm just pointing out that while we might get the impression from her case that faith makes her a good person, or from my case that lack of faith makes me a good person, if we consider both of us together, I think that the most logical conclusion is that faith - or lack thereof - is largely irrelevant to being a good person, despite both of our feelings to the contrary.

I see....I apologize for misunderstanding hmmm let me ponder this and get back to you-I say this cause I am recovering from drinking lol

 

[lunamoth]

I didn't say that faith causes narcissism (not in general, anyhow - maybe in specific cases, I suppose). My point is that - IMO, anyhow - I'm a generally good person and that I do have the feeling that my lack of faith informs this. OTOH, luna's also a generally good person and she says that her faith informs this.

Referring mostly to your other post quoting mine, I don't see how a lack of something can inform you about anything, unless you also stipulate that faith actually is also informing you. I don't see how a 'lack of faith' can focus on anything because it is the absence of something (state of being, point of view, whatever).

I'm just pointing out that while we might get the impression from her case that faith makes her a good person, or from my case that lack of faith makes me a good person, if we consider both of us together, I think that the most logical conclusion is that faith - or lack thereof - is largely irrelevant to being a good person, despite both of our feelings to the contrary.

I hardly think you can make that conclusion logically. :sarcastic At the most you can say that you believe faith is irrelevant to your life, but then to make that statement logically you'd have to compare 0.9 penguin with faith to 0.9 without faith.

Even if we found that 0.9 without faith really is a better person that 0.9 with faith, you can't extend your conclusion to luna with or without faith.