Faith

[Trailblazer]

Actually the logical thing to do would be to NOT accept anything that cannot be verified. It's the 9/11 terrorists 'faith' that convinced then God wanted them to do horrible things. Maybe if they had refused to take anything on faith and had demanded verifiable evidence from God then it never would have happened.

True, if they had verifiable of evidence from God it never would have happened, because God would never approve of terrorism.

However, that does not mean that it was faith that “caused” it to happen. If they had followed the teachings of the Qur’an it would never have happened either, because the Qur’an does not condone terrorism.

If you insist on verifiable evidence of God, then you will never believe in God because God can never be verified to exist, since God is immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then I guess you will never believe in Magical Fairies, at least not in this earthly life, because there will never be verifiable evidence for Magical Fairies, since Magical Fairies is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. The Essence of Magical Fairies is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men and can never be known except through Messengers of Magical Fairies who manifest Magical Fairies and reveal Magical Fairies’s attributes and Magical Fairies’ will.

No, that is not a logical argument because there is no evidence of Magical Fairies, and because there is no evidence for Magical Fairies we cannot know anything about them; so we cannot say that they are immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived or that their Essence is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

By contrast, there is evidence for the existence of God through a Messenger who has revealed that God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived and the Essence of God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

So when are you going to start believing in Magical Fairies? If not, WHY not?

When there is evidence for Magical Fairies I might start believing they exist but until then I will withhold my belief. The reason I won’t start believing in Magical Fairies is because there is no evidence that indicates they exist.

 

[QuestioningMind]

True, if they had verifiable of evidence from God it never would have happened, because God would never approve of terrorism.

However, that does not mean that it was faith that “caused” it to happen. If they had followed the teachings of the Qur’an it would never have happened either, because the Qur’an does not condone terrorism.

If you insist on verifiable evidence of God, then you will never believe in God because God can never be verified to exist, since God is immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.

Of course it was their faith that caused it to happen. If they had NOT taken it faith that it was what God wanted, they would not have done it.

That's a pretty hollow threat. It's like me saying that if you insist on verifiable evidence you'll NEVER believe in magical fairies or invisible dragons. Why would you WANT to believe in anything for which there is no verifiable evidence? That's precisely what the 9/11 terrorists did.

 

[QuestioningMind]

No, that is not a logical argument because there is no evidence of Magical Fairies, and because there is no evidence for Magical Fairies we cannot know anything about them; so we cannot say that they are immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived or that their Essence is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

By contrast, there is evidence for the existence of God through a Messenger who has revealed that God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived and the Essence of God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

When there is evidence for Magical Fairies I might start believing they exist but until then I will withhold my belief. The reason I won’t start believing in Magical Fairies is because there is no evidence that indicates they exist.

No, that is not a logical argument because there is no evidence of Magical Fairies, and because there is no evidence for Magical Fairies we cannot know anything about them; so we cannot say that they are immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived or that their Essence is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

That really depends of how low your threshold is for what you consider to be 'evidence'. I can claim that dew on morning grass and rainbows are BOTH evidence of magical fairies because that's where morning dew and rainbows come from. Why I can even give you books to read that will tell you all about magical fairies.

By contrast, there is evidence for the existence of God through a Messenger who has revealed that God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived and the Essence of God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

So you know of a messenger from God who has actual VERIFIABLE evidence for God's existence? LET'S HERE IT! Hopefully it isn't the same sort of 'low threshold' evidence like morning dew and rainbows, but ACTUAL VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE. I can't wait!

When there is evidence for Magical Fairies I might start believing they exist but until then I will withhold my belief. The reason I won’t start believing in Magical Fairies is because there is no evidence that indicates they exist.[

Funny, but that's always been my view when comes to your unverifiable God claims. But of course, you claim that there's a messenger from God who has verifiable evidence for your God that isn't as useless as my morning dew or rainbows evidence. Like I said, I can't wait

 

[Trailblazer]

TB: No, that is not a logical argument because there is no evidence of Magical Fairies, and because there is no evidence for Magical Fairies we cannot know anything about them; so we cannot say that they are immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived or that their Essence is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

QM: That really depends of how low your threshold is for what you consider to be 'evidence'. I can claim that dew on morning grass and rainbows are BOTH evidence of magical fairies because that's where morning dew and rainbows come from. Why I can even give you books to read that will tell you all about magical fairies.

But there is no reason to think there is any such thing as Magical Fairies; angels yes, but fairies no.

If you do not LIKE the evidence for Messengers of God and the religions they establish, you do not LIKE it, but that does not mean it is not evidence of God.

If God had never used Messengers, hardly anyone would believe in God because the main reason people believe in God is because of one of those Messengers as indicated by the fact that 84 percent of the world population has a faith and those faiths all have some kind of Founder, what I refer to as a Messenger.

TB: By contrast, there is evidence for the existence of God through a Messenger who has revealed that God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived and the Essence of God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

QM: So you know of a messenger from God who has actual VERIFIABLE evidence for God's existence? LET'S HERE IT! Hopefully it isn't the same sort of 'low threshold' evidence like morning dew and rainbows, but ACTUAL VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE. I can't wait!

What I meant is that the evidence for the existence of God is the Messenger because He was a Manifestation of God. There is also verifiable evidence that supports the claim that the Messenger was a Manifestation of God but nobody can prove that He received communication from God. That has to be taken on faith, after one has verified to their satisfaction that He was a Manifestation of God by looking at all the evidence that supports His claim.

TB: When there is evidence for Magical Fairies I might start believing they exist but until then I will withhold my belief. The reason I won’t start believing in Magical Fairies is because there is no evidence that indicates they exist.

QM: Funny, but that's always been my view when comes to your unverifiable God claims. But of course, you claim that there's a messenger from God who has verifiable evidence for your God that isn't as useless as my morning dew or rainbows evidence. Like I said, I can't wait.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The Messenger of God has evidence that indicates God exists but He does not have evidence that verifies God exists.

God can never be verified by anyone. The Messenger of God knows God exists because He gets the communication, and we either choose to trust Him of not. That is how God set it up so we cannot do anything about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course it was their faith that caused it to happen. If they had NOT taken it faith that it was what God wanted, they would not have done it.

It was their beliefs and their faith, or should I say it was their faith in their beliefs.

That's a pretty hollow threat. It's like me saying that if you insist on verifiable evidence you'll NEVER believe in magical fairies or invisible dragons. Why would you WANT to believe in anything for which there is no verifiable evidence? That's precisely what the 9/11 terrorists did.

It is not fair to compare terrorist beliefs that we have no good reasons to believe, beliefs that make no sense with beliefs that we do have a good reason to believe, beliefs that make sense.

There is verifiable evidence for Baha’u’llah, so that is why I believe in Him. There is no verifiable evidence for God, because God does not provide it. I thus believe in God because of the verifiable evidence I have for Baha’u’llah. Nobody can prove that Baha’u’llah got communication from God, but the verifiable evidence that surrounds His Revelation is adequate for me.

Regarding Baha’u’llah, there is verifiable evidence of everything I listed below.

1. What He was like as a person (His character);
2. What He did during His mission on earth;
3. The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
4. The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
5. What others have written about Him;
6. The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming;
7. The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
8. The predictions He made that have come to pass;
9. The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

 

[QuestioningMind]

But there is no reason to think there is any such thing as Magical Fairies; angels yes, but fairies no.

If you do not LIKE the evidence for Messengers of God and the religions they establish, you do not LIKE it, but that does not mean it is not evidence of God.

If God had never used Messengers, hardly anyone would believe in God because the main reason people believe in God is because of one of those Messengers as indicated by the fact that 84 percent of the world population has a faith and those faiths all have some kind of Founder, what I refer to as a Messenger.

What I meant is that the evidence for the existence of God is the Messenger because He was a Manifestation of God. There is also verifiable evidence that supports the claim that the Messenger was a Manifestation of God but nobody can prove that He received communication from God. That has to be taken on faith, after one has verified to their satisfaction that He was a Manifestation of God by looking at all the evidence that supports His claim.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The Messenger of God has evidence that indicates God exists but He does not have evidence that verifies God exists.

God can never be verified by anyone. The Messenger of God knows God exists because He gets the communication, and we either choose to trust Him of not. That is how God set it up so we cannot do anything about it.

But there is no reason to think there is any such thing as Magical Fairies; angels yes, but fairies no.

If you do not LIKE the evidence for Messengers of God and the religions they establish, you do not LIKE it, but that does not mean it is not evidence of God.

But I TOLD you how morning dew and rainbows are evidence of fairies. You may not LIKE the evidence, but that doesn't mean it isn't evidence of magical fairies.

If God had never used Messengers, hardly anyone would believe in God because the main reason people believe in God is because of one of those Messengers as indicated by the fact that 84 percent of the world population has a faith and those faiths all have some kind of Founder, what I refer to as a Messenger.

There are THOUSANDS of religions, and every single one had a founder. If that's your criteria then you apparently believe is every single god ever imagined, even if some of the claims from these various gods are completely contradictory.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The Messenger of God has evidence that indicates God exists but He does not have evidence that verifies God exists.

I AM the messenger for magical fairies... I've offered you my evidence in the form of morning dew and rainbows. So either you accept my claim that magical fairies exist OR the simple fact that I claim to be a messenger and that I offer evidence that can't be verified isn't sufficient for you to accept my fantastical claim.

So if my magical fairies can never be verified by anyone and your god(s) cannot ever be verified by anyone, why would you believe in either one? The rational thing to do is to ONLY accept as real those things that CAN be verified.

 

[Trailblazer]

TB: But there is no reason to think there is any such thing as Magical Fairies; angels yes, but fairies no.

If you do not LIKE the evidence for Messengers of God and the religions they establish, you do not LIKE it, but that does not mean it is not evidence of God.

QM: But I TOLD you how morning dew and rainbows are evidence of fairies. You may not LIKE the evidence, but that doesn't mean it isn't evidence of magical fairies.

Can you show me how and why dew and rainbows are evidence are evidence of magical fairies, rather than just telling me that they are?

The morning dew and rainbows could be evidence of something else. In other words, there could be another reason why they exist. In fact, science offers an explanation for their existence.

By contrast, there is no other logical explanation for the existence of Messengers except that they came from God.

TB: If God had never used Messengers, hardly anyone would believe in God because the main reason people believe in God is because of one of those Messengers as indicated by the fact that 84 percent of the world population has a faith and those faiths all have some kind of Founder, what I refer to as a Messenger.

QM: There are THOUSANDS of religions, and every single one had a founder. If that's your criteria then you apparently believe is every single god ever imagined, even if some of the claims from these various gods are completely contradictory.

No, I do not believe that the claims of all religious people are necessarily valid, but my point was that most people believe in God because of a man who claimed to represent God. Most of the world population believes in a Messenger of God that was legitimate; e.g., Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah. Their messages are not contradictory; they just differ because the Messengers came at different times in history to different people who lived in a different world. All the great world religions share the same essential spiritual truths, which are eternal.

TM: Sorry for the misunderstanding. The Messenger of God has evidence that indicates God exists but He does not have evidence that verifies God exists.

QM: I AM the messenger for magical fairies... I've offered you my evidence in the form of morning dew and rainbows. So either you accept my claim that magical fairies exist OR the simple fact that I claim to be a messenger and that I offer evidence that can't be verified isn't sufficient for you to accept my fantastical claim.

If you are indeed the messenger for magical fairies, you owe it to me to explain why your claim is a valid claim. Can you do that? Can you explain why morning dew and rainbows are evidence of magical fairies? Can you explain how they could not be evidence of something else?

Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings). All this evidence can be researched and verified to be connected to Baha’u’llah, so nobody can say that Baha’u’llah did not offer proof that supports His claim to be a Messenger of God.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

So if my magical fairies can never be verified by anyone and your god(s) cannot ever be verified by anyone, why would you believe in either one? The rational thing to do is to ONLY accept as real those things that CAN be verified.

Magical fairies cannot be verified by anyone and God cannot be verified by anyone, but Baha’u’llah can be verified by everyone. It is then your decision whether the evidence He has presented is proof of His claim to be a Messenger of God.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Can you show me how and why dew and rainbows are evidence are evidence of magical fairies, rather than just telling me that they are?

The morning dew and rainbows could be evidence of something else. In other words, there could be another reason why they exist. In fact, science offers an explanation for their existence.

By contrast, there is no other logical explanation for the existence of Messengers except that they came from God.

No, I do not believe that the claims of all religious people are necessarily valid, but my point was that most people believe in God because of a man who claimed to represent God. Most of the world population believes in a Messenger of God that was legitimate; e.g., Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah. Their messages are not contradictory; they just differ because the Messengers came at different times in history to different people who lived in a different world. All the great world religions share the same essential spiritual truths, which are eternal.

If you are indeed the messenger for magical fairies, you owe it to me to explain why your claim is a valid claim. Can you do that? Can you explain why morning dew and rainbows are evidence of magical fairies? Can you explain how they could not be evidence of something else?

Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings). All this evidence can be researched and verified to be connected to Baha’u’llah, so nobody can say that Baha’u’llah did not offer proof that supports His claim to be a Messenger of God.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

Magical fairies cannot be verified by anyone and God cannot be verified by anyone, but Baha’u’llah can be verified by everyone. It is then your decision whether the evidence He has presented is proof of His claim to be a Messenger of God.

By contrast, there is no other logical explanation for the existence of Messengers except that they came from God.

Really? So when I say I AM A MESSENGER FROM GOD TO TELL YOU ABOUT MAGICAL FAIRIES, there is NO OTHER logical explanation for my existence than that I came from God. I guess NOW you agree that magical fairies MUST exist. Furthermore EVERY SINGLE person who claims to be a messenger from God MUST actually be a messenger from God, because there is NO OTHER logical explanation.

Might just be me, but there seems to be HUGE holes in this argument.

If you are indeed the messenger for magical fairies, you owe it to me to explain why your claim is a valid claim. Can you do that? Can you explain why morning dew and rainbows are evidence of magical fairies? Can you explain how they could not be evidence of something else?

It's a valid claim because it came from GOD. JUST LIKE the Messengers all claim that their claims are valid because they came from GOD. I have exactly as much evidence for MY claims as they do for theirs.

So, can YOU provide evidence that your Messengers are valid? Can you explain how they can't possibly be an explanation for something else? Can you explain how their 'prophecy can ONLY be interpreted in a SINGLE way and couldn't POSSIBLY be interpreted any other way? And how thees supposed prophecies are no different from an accurate prediction?

Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings). All this evidence can be researched and verified to be connected to Baha’u’llah, so nobody can say that Baha’u’llah did not offer proof that supports His claim to be a Messenger of God.

When can I meet this guy so I can examine his character? Or am I supposed to somehow 'examine his character' based how how OTHER PEOPLE claim to have examined his character? Which is to say, blindly accept what someone else CLAIMS his charter was like? And what SPECIFIC writings did he produce that provides genuine EVIDENCE that his claim to be God's messenger is true? I have written the words I AM GOD'S MESSENGER CONCERNING MAGICAL FAIRIES. Is that sufficient 'evidence' for you?

 

[THE HOOD APOLOGIST]

Faith is like a rock being held in a mans fist, he claims he holds a rock, you say open your fist, he say no have faith i am holding it, and you are content with that.

A Buddhist will simply ask that the hand be opened, until then do you hold a rock, maybe.

You may but without opening the hand there is absolutly no proof, faith was a word created to justify the belief in something without a shred of evidence.

I don't know where you got this example of faith from, but it surely is not the biblical representation of faith. More like blind belief. Blind belief would be believing he's holding a rock with no evidence whatsoever.

Biblical faith is trusting he has a rock in his hand when he says he does this 10th time because he has proven to be trustworthy in the past to be holding a rock 9 times out of 9. Therefore you having faith he's telling you the truth is based on prior evidence, not blind belief.
You can never be 100% sure he's holding a rock, he could be lying this time. But if he's showed you 9 times out of 9 that he has a rock in his hand, there's a 90% chance he's probably telling the truth this 10th time. So Biblical Faith is based on probability, not blind belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

TB: By contrast, there is no other logical explanation for the existence of Messengers except that they came from God.

QM: Really? So when I say I AM A MESSENGER FROM GOD TO TELL YOU ABOUT MAGICAL FAIRIES, there is NO OTHER logical explanation for my existence than that I came from God. I guess NOW you agree that magical fairies MUST exist. Furthermore EVERY SINGLE person who claims to be a messenger from God MUST actually be a messenger from God, because there is NO OTHER logical explanation.

That is a straw man. A real Messenger of God must have evidence to back up His claim to be a Messenger of God; the evidence is His character, His life, His mission, and His Writings. Additional evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

There are logical explanations as to why false messengers do what they do. It can be seen in their character and the way they lived their lives. Their selfish motives are clear and evident. As Jesus said, you shall know them by their fruits. It is clearly evident that Jim Jones had a bad character and bad fruits.

There are also logical explanations as to why the real Messengers of God sacrifice their entire lives; they do so for the Cause of God. We know that there are no selfish motives because they do not get anything for themselves. For example, Baha’u’llah sacrificed everything He could have had. He came from a wealthy family and could have been a minister in the government with money, property, and possessions, but He gave all of that up and lived as a prisoner and was exiled from place to place for 40 years. Many attempts were made on His life and He was poisoned by His enemies several times. All He got was suffering for claiming what He claimed, to be the bearer of a "new message" from God which conflicted with the Islamic stronghold into which He was born. That alone is not proof that He was a Messenger; you have to look at all the evidence I referred to above.

Might just be me, but there seems to be HUGE holes in this argument.

If you understand what I am saying, there are no holes.

TB: If you are indeed the messenger for magical fairies, you owe it to me to explain why your claim is a valid claim. Can you do that? Can you explain why morning dew and rainbows are evidence of magical fairies? Can you explain how they could not be evidence of something else?

QM: It's a valid claim because it came from GOD. JUST LIKE the Messengers all claim that their claims are valid because they came from GOD. I have exactly as much evidence for MY claims as they do for theirs.

This is where you have your problem in understanding my argument. You do not have any evidence to support anything you claim, but there is a ton of evidence that supports the claim of Baha’u’llah.

The other thing is this: None of the Messengers expected you to believe that they were from God because they said so. They all provided evidence that supported their claims to be from God and they told us to look at the evidence:

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men. The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8​

So, can YOU provide evidence that your Messengers are valid? Can you explain how they can't possibly be an explanation for something else? Can you explain how their 'prophecy can ONLY be interpreted in a SINGLE way and couldn't POSSIBLY be interpreted any other way? And how these supposed prophecies are no different from an accurate prediction?

Yes, I can.

TB: Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings). All this evidence can be researched and verified to be connected to Baha’u’llah, so nobody can say that Baha’u’llah did not offer proof that supports His claim to be a Messenger of God.

QM: When can I meet this guy so I can examine his character? Or am I supposed to somehow 'examine his character' based on how OTHER PEOPLE claim to have examined his character? Which is to say, blindly accept what someone else CLAIMS his character was like?

Since He is no longer alive, you must examine His life through what history has recorded about Him. There are accurate accounts of His life from early childhood through the 40 years of His mission, and from those you can come to your own conclusions about His character.

And what SPECIFIC writings did he produce that provides genuine EVIDENCE that his claim to be God's messenger is true? I have written the words I AM GOD'S MESSENGER CONCERNING MAGICAL FAIRIES. Is that sufficient 'evidence' for you?

You would have to read those Writings and determine if they constitute evidence for you. Certainly, most of what Baha’u’llah wrote was not about claiming to BE God’s Messenger, but He had to make that claim in order for us to know that is who He was.

 

[QuestioningMind]

That is a straw man. A real Messenger of God must have evidence to back up His claim to be a Messenger of God; the evidence is His character, His life, His mission, and His Writings. Additional evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

There are logical explanations as to why false messengers do what they do. It can be seen in their character and the way they lived their lives. Their selfish motives are clear and evident. As Jesus said, you shall know them by their fruits. It is clearly evident that Jim Jones had a bad character and bad fruits.

There are also logical explanations as to why the real Messengers of God sacrifice their entire lives; they do so for the Cause of God. We know that there are no selfish motives because they do not get anything for themselves. For example, Baha’u’llah sacrificed everything He could have had. He came from a wealthy family and could have been a minister in the government with money, property, and possessions, but He gave all of that up and lived as a prisoner and was exiled from place to place for 40 years. Many attempts were made on His life and He was poisoned by His enemies several times. All He got was suffering for claiming what He claimed, to be the bearer of a "new message" from God which conflicted with the Islamic stronghold into which He was born. That alone is not proof that He was a Messenger; you have to look at all the evidence I referred to above.

If you understand what I am saying, there are no holes.

This is where you have your problem in understanding my argument. You do not have any evidence to support anything you claim, but there is a ton of evidence that supports the claim of Baha’u’llah.

The other thing is this: None of the Messengers expected you to believe that they were from God because they said so. They all provided evidence that supported their claims to be from God and they told us to look at the evidence:

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men. The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8​

Yes, I can.

Since He is no longer alive, you must examine His life through what history has recorded about Him. There are accurate accounts of His life from early childhood through the 40 years of His mission, and from those you can come to your own conclusions about His character.

You would have to read those Writings and determine if they constitute evidence for you. Certainly, most of what Baha’u’llah wrote was not about claiming to BE God’s Messenger, but He had to make that claim in order for us to know that is who He was.

You would have to read those Writings and determine if they constitute evidence for you. Certainly, most of what Baha’u’llah wrote was not about claiming to BE God’s Messenger, but He had to make that claim in order for us to know that is who He was.

That's just it... I've read TONS of what people claim are valid 'prophecies' that constitute 'evidence', yet I still have not read a single one that was either so vague it could mean virtually anything or no different from an accurate prediction. I was hoping you might have an example of a so called prophecy that was TRULY specific and could not possibly be interpreted in any other way.

More often that not it's something akin to: And the Great Dragon in the west will go to war with the Mighty Ox in the east and the Mighty Ox will prevail! And the believer says: CLEARLY the Mighty Dragon is nation X and the Mighty Ox is nation Y and in such and such century nation X DID go to war with nation Y and nation Y DID prevail... so that's undeniable evidence that the prophet was right.

So do you have anything that has like actual dates that very specific future events will happen? Anything like: In what will be known at the year 1969 on the twentieth day of what will be known as June the first human being will set foot on the moon. Something like THAT would constitute genuine evidence of an actual prophecy. But vague claims filled with symbolism that can be attributed to any number of things does not.

As for judging the character of an individual based on what other people claim about them, I don't see how that can be very reliable, especially if you never actually met any of the individuals who are making the claims

 

[Trailblazer]

TB: You would have to read those Writings and determine if they constitute evidence for you. Certainly, most of what Baha’u’llah wrote was not about claiming to BE God’s Messenger, but He had to make that claim in order for us to know that is who He was.

QM: That's just it... I've read TONS of what people claim are valid 'prophecies' that constitute 'evidence', yet I still have not read a single one that was either so vague it could mean virtually anything or no different from an accurate prediction. I was hoping you might have an example of a so called prophecy that was TRULY specific and could not possibly be interpreted in any other way.

When I said “Writings” In was not referring to the prophecies; I was referring to the scriptures.

However, since you brought it up, there are prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah and then there are predictions of the future that He made; these are two different things. Let me be clear though; Baha’u’llah did not make predictions in order to prove who He was; sometimes He made them to warn people of what would happen in the future.

Aside from what He wrote about God and spiritual matters, Baha’u’llah wrote about many practical matters. We know that Baha’u’llah did not have more than a rudimentary education so there is no explanation as to where He acquired the knowledge that He had.

Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. Here is a partial list of specific things Baha’u’llah knew and things He predicted that later came to pass:

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.
2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.
3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.
4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.
5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.
6. The break up of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.
7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.
8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.
9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.
10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.
11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.
12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.
13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.
14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.
15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).
16. America's violent racial struggles.
17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.
18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.
19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.
20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.
21. The development of nuclear weapons.
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.
26. Space travel.
27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.
28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.
29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.
30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

You can read exactly how these predictions were made and how they came to pass in the following book from which they were cited: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

More often that not it's something akin to: And the Great Dragon in the west will go to war with the Mighty Ox in the east and the Mighty Ox will prevail! And the believer says: CLEARLY the Mighty Dragon is nation X and the Mighty Ox is nation Y and in such and such century nation X DID go to war with nation Y and nation Y DID prevail... so that's undeniable evidence that the prophet was right.

Out of those 30 predictions you should be able to find some that are pretty specific.

So do you have anything that has like actual dates that very specific future events will happen? Anything like: In what will be known at the year 1969 on the twentieth day of what will be known as June the first human being will set foot on the moon. Something like THAT would constitute genuine evidence of an actual prophecy. But vague claims filled with symbolism that can be attributed to any number of things does not.

Here is the problem with Baha’u’llah giving exact dates and locations; as I told you He was not trying to prove anything with His predictions. More than anything else they were warnings about what would happen in the future, not to be used as evidence as His Prophethood.

As for judging the character of an individual based on what other people claim about them, I don't see how that can be very reliable, especially if you never actually met any of the individuals who are making the claims.

History is history. There are many accounts of His life and they are factual accounts. I do not understand how meeting these people would make any difference and of course that is impossible.

Interestingly, meeting someone is not going to tell you much about them, not as much as the accounts of what they did in their actual life. Many of those who knew Baha’u’llah and were closest to Him denied Him because they were spiritually blind, so they could not see who He was.

 

[QuestioningMind]

When I said “Writings” In was not referring to the prophecies; I was referring to the scriptures.

However, since you brought it up, there are prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah and then there are predictions of the future that He made; these are two different things. Let me be clear though; Baha’u’llah did not make predictions in order to prove who He was; sometimes He made them to warn people of what would happen in the future.

Aside from what He wrote about God and spiritual matters, Baha’u’llah wrote about many practical matters. We know that Baha’u’llah did not have more than a rudimentary education so there is no explanation as to where He acquired the knowledge that He had.

Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. Here is a partial list of specific things Baha’u’llah knew and things He predicted that later came to pass:

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.
2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.
3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.
4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.
5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.
6. The break up of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.
7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.
8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.
9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.
10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.
11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.
12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.
13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.
14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.
15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).
16. America's violent racial struggles.
17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.
18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.
19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.
20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.
21. The development of nuclear weapons.
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.
26. Space travel.
27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.
28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.
29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.
30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

You can read exactly how these predictions were made and how they came to pass in the following book from which they were cited: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Out of those 30 predictions you should be able to find some that are pretty specific.

Here is the problem with Baha’u’llah giving exact dates and locations; as I told you He was not trying to prove anything with His predictions. More than anything else they were warnings about what would happen in the future, not to be used as evidence as His Prophethood.

History is history. There are many accounts of His life and they are factual accounts. I do not understand how meeting these people would make any difference and of course that is impossible.

Interestingly, meeting someone is not going to tell you much about them, not as much as the accounts of what they did in their actual life. Many of those who knew Baha’u’llah and were closest to Him denied Him because they were spiritually blind, so they could not see who He was.

Sadly this is about what I expected. You provided me with a list of accurate predictions that this guy SUPPOSEDLY made. Sorry, but being able to make accurate predictions is NOT evidence that someone is a messenger from God. People have been accurately predicting future events since the beginning of man. All it is evidence of is that people are capable of using logic and reason to often make predictions that turn out to be correct. There was a general during the American Civil War who after watching the devastation that modern weapons produced stated that eventually human beings would produce a weapon capable of destroying the entire world. Low and behold, it wasn't too terrible long before we created the A bomb. But this general WASN'T a messenger from God. All he did was accurately predict what humans would eventually do.

And how exactly do you know for certain that this individuals actually DID make all of those predictions? Did he write them all down in handwriting that has been confirmed to have been his or is it third party claims that all of the above were predictions that he made?

Interestingly, meeting someone is not going to tell you much about them, not as much as the accounts of what they did in their actual life. Many of those who knew Baha’u’llah and were closest to Him denied Him because they were spiritually blind, so they could not see who He was

So you never actually met him. All you have to go on is other people's accounts of what he was like. Some people were convinced that he was a messenger from God, but OTHERS who were closest to him denied that he was a messenger from God. How do you know that it wasn't those who claimed he WAS God's messenger who were 'spiritually blinding' themselves?

So you have simply decided to accept the accounts that claim he is and ignore those accounts who say he is not. This isn't a decision you're making for yourself... you've simply decided to let other people decide for you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sadly this is about what I expected. You provided me with a list of accurate predictions that this guy SUPPOSEDLY made. Sorry, but being able to make accurate predictions is NOT evidence that someone is a messenger from God. People have been accurately predicting future events since the beginning of man. All it is evidence of is that people are capable of using logic and reason to often make predictions that turn out to be correct.

I only listed predictions that Baha’u’llah made as “part” of the evidence, and I never said it was proof that He was a Messenger of God. Baha’u’llah said what we are supposed to use as evidence: (1) the Person of the Messenger (His character); (2) everything that surrounds His Revelation (the history); (3) everything that He wrote (His scriptures);

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men.” Gleanings, p. 105​

I made my own list to expand upon that, since some people consider other things important.

There was a general during the American Civil War who after watching the devastation that modern weapons produced stated that eventually human beings would produce a weapon capable of destroying the entire world. Low and behold, it wasn't too terrible long before we created the A bomb. But this general WASN'T a messenger from God. All he did was accurately predict what humans would eventually do.

AGAIN, I never said that the predictions were proof that Bahaullah was a Messenger of God.

And how exactly do you know for certain that this individuals actually DID make all of those predictions? Did he write them all down in handwriting that has been confirmed to have been his or is it third party claims that all of the above were predictions that he made?

I assume that would be in His Original Writings. That might be explained in the book entitled The Challenge of Baha'u'llah.

TB: Interestingly, meeting someone is not going to tell you much about them, not as much as the accounts of what they did in their actual life. Many of those who knew Baha’u’llah and were closest to Him denied Him because they were spiritually blind, so they could not see who He was

QM: So you never actually met him. All you have to go on is other people's accounts of what he was like. Some people were convinced that he was a messenger from God, but OTHERS who were closest to him denied that he was a messenger from God. How do you know that it wasn't those who claimed he WAS God's messenger who were 'spiritually blinding' themselves?

Of course I never met Bahaullah, he dies in 1892. I know that He was who he claimed to be by looking at the evidence I noted above.

So you have simply decided to accept the accounts that claim he is and ignore those accounts who say he is not. This isn't a decision you're making for yourself... you've simply decided to let other people decide for you.

No, I did not simply decide that. I looked at all the evidence and then I decided that. Nobody decided for me because I was the one who looked at all the evidence and decided. I know the accounts of those who said that He was not but I have evidence that refutes what they said and I also know their motives. It is all there, available for anyone who wants to read it. They can read both sides and then make their own decision which one to believe. For me personally, the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the primary proof of His reality and truth. They are indisputable because we have proof that He wrote them with His Own Pen.