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Fake Gods

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not really. It just means I don't ask "is this real" and instead ask "in what way do/can we know and experience this phenomenon" which gets at exactly what you're talking about. It's not hard and quite practical. In some ways, more practical because time isn't wasted on nonsensical arguments about whether or not something is "real" and can move on to actually discussing the phenomena in question. I find questions like "do gods exist" a waste of time that get in the way of better questions like "what do different cultures believe about gods" or "how are gods honored in ritual across the world's religions."

Unfortunately, from my experience, there are many who treat such concepts as factually existing entities with both universal mandatory prescriptions and proscriptions for how individuals should behave and interact with each other. Treating fiction as fact has real ramifications for a society if shared by a sufficient percentage of the population. To that end I see it as important to make these distinctions between what is meant by 'real'.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Unfortunately, from my experience, there are many who treat such concepts as factually existing entities with both universal mandatory prescriptions and proscriptions for how individuals should behave and interact with each other. Treating fiction as fact has real ramifications for a society if shared by a sufficient percentage of the population. To that end I see it as important to make these distinctions between what is meant by 'real'.
Eh, some humans want to be in control and dictate regardless of what is or isn't believed. I just don't attach the same importance to this as you do. Live and let live.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Eh, some humans want to be in control and dictate regardless of what is or isn't believed. I just don't attach the same importance to this as you do. Live and let live.

I think you are being insincere. You seem to take great issue with notions of human beings being granted unequivocal dominion of earth and other species. Do you believe women should have equal rights? What about freedom to express one's perceived sexual orientation? I know there are those who would support views opposite of mine on these issues and justify their stance upon their passionate belief their position is dictated by a factual supreme entity of some kind.

What people believe can have ramifications for everyone in a democratic society, not just the belief holder.
 

Dao Hao Now

Active Member
Since we have a thread on Real Gods up right now, I was thinking about many gods and goddesses which people don't believe in. What mental processes does one go through in order to logically determine which god is real as opposed to gods believed to be false?

How does one know that the Abrahamic God is real, while declaring gods such as Zeus or Thor to be "false"? Would an ancient Roman believe that Jupiter is real while Zeus is fake?

There are some who reject all gods due to a lack of evidence of gods (or even any coherent, usable definition of the concept). Most believers seem to pick and choose, where they believe in one god or some gods, while rejecting others. Is the process of picking and choosing just a feeling that people have, or is it simply a matter of upbringing?

Are there any people who believe in absolutely everything?
Excellent question:
What is the difference between real and fake gods?
From my experience what often follows is the failing of languages used (often subconsciously)
to obfuscate and lean on semantics.
The terms “god” when bandied about within these sort of conversations, when looked at from the outside may appear that as it is being used universally, yet in fact many participants are relating hugely different concepts and unfortunately are seemingly happy to knowingly do so…..
it enhances the obfuscation.

I often wonder, for many, how solid there internal concept of their god (or any for that matter) is.
Perhaps that may be the cognitive dissonance salve that enables them to cling to their faith.

Throw on top of that the fact that societies (humans being social species) are permeated with the ever present influence of a variety of religions, which are consciously baked into the upbringing of the children within those societies.
To the point that it becomes a essential part of their identity.

As result the terms “real”, “god”, “faith”, etc. become easy shields to appear to be in conformity with the greater whole, even when their internal understanding of these concepts are out of sync with those they want to identify with; if you’re using the same language (even when your personal understanding is different from those you are conversing with) they tend to accept you.

I’ve known several persons from the same church, who when discussing their understanding of their religion individually, each have remarkably different interpretations of their beliefs as compared to their fellow congregation members.
Yet when together as a group, they are certain they all are in unison.
Because of the relied upon vagueness of the language, they can accept that they all mean the same thing by using the same words despite the fact their individual understanding of those words are nuanced to fit their individual concepts which are different from those they are “agreeing” with.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Obviously. A point that can be made without being a jerk about it.

I make my points to the best of my admittedly meager abilities. I would also stress that my point here is not to force a concession from you, rather it is to illustrate to those reading along, considerations I feel were not adequately addressed or appreciated in your comments, however poor my attempt.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Since we have a thread on Real Gods up right now, I was thinking about many gods and goddesses which people don't believe in. What mental processes does one go through in order to logically determine which god is real as opposed to gods believed to be false?

How does one know that the Abrahamic God is real, while declaring gods such as Zeus or Thor to be "false"? Would an ancient Roman believe that Jupiter is real while Zeus is fake?

There are some who reject all gods due to a lack of evidence of gods (or even any coherent, usable definition of the concept). Most believers seem to pick and choose, where they believe in one god or some gods, while rejecting others. Is the process of picking and choosing just a feeling that people have, or is it simply a matter of upbringing?

Are there any people who believe in absolutely everything?
They all are nonexistent gods in the waking world but they are certainly real , well, and alive in people's minds.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I make my points to the best of my admittedly meager abilities. I would also stress that my point here is not to force a concession from you, rather it is to illustrate to those reading along, considerations I feel were not adequately addressed or appreciated in your comments, however poor my attempt.
Thanks, that's fair. The points you made were important ones. Live and let live is a nice ideal that never survives contact with reality; conflict is inherent to the world.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There are apparently people who genuinely have a hard time settling on specific beliefs. Some even seem to have typical cycles.

Me, I don't think that is noteworthy. Belief is absolutely the worst thing to mix with any sort of deity anyway, all the more so if it is on purpose.

But mostly, it is just wrong to talk about "belief in god" as a desirable or constructive thing - for pretty much any god, albeit for different reasons.

Either belief is extraneous, or it is harmful. Gods are inspirational beings. We align to them according to vocation and preference; or we develop unhealthy attachments to the idea that they are real; or we just don't care.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think it is possible that many of those ancient "gods" existed. I just think they should not be kept as ones God.

For clarification, why did you put the word 'gods' in quotes? What were you trying to communicate regarding the term when you did that? You also used the past tense of 'exist' in reference to ancient "gods", I presume it to mean that having once existed, they no longer do. What was the nature of their existence? Was it as described by their adherents? How have they come to no longer exist? You did not specify a culture, so my assumption here would be that in your use of the term 'ancient' you are referring to all ancient cultures around the globe prior to some date. What is the cut-off date to qualify as ancient as you use it here?
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
They all are nonexistent gods in the waking world but they are certainly real , well, and alive in people's minds.
Is nonexistent the correct word, though? Are thoughts nonexistent in the waking world?

I think a better term might be "unmanifest" or "formless." The thoughts that led to me typing this certainly existed.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Good point. Better might have been something more like ...

" ... do you see no substantive difference between the plausibility of Thor and the plausibility of the God of Genesis 1?​

We know that the events as narrated in Genesis 1 didn't happen. This would make Thor more plausible.

If, however, what you meant by pointing to Genesis 1 is the concept of a god that created the universe, then sure, this is more plausible than Thor.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Is nonexistent the correct word, though? Are thoughts nonexistent in the waking world?

I think a better term might be "unmanifest" or "formless." The thoughts that led to me typing this certainly existed.

We are speaking about abstractions here. There is an important distinction that can and should be made between the abstraction itself and what the abstraction is meant to point or refer to. For example, let's assume for the sake of argument that I exist physically in the real world, consisting of mass/energy with spatio-temporal extension. There are many abstractions we can create to refer to me or hold the concept of me in one's mind. Examples might include the moniker @MikeF, my given name at birth, a photo of me, the visual memory of me if I have been seen in person, simply pointing at me, etc, etc. All of those abstractions exist, and exist in different forms, but none of them *are* me. My existence and their existence is separate and distinct. If I did not actually exist, then those abstractions that could still be created would point to nothing.

Due to the nature of abstractions and abstract language specifically, we can create abstractions that do not point to, or refer to phenomena or events in the real world. Sometimes we can create purely abstract concepts that are useful to us, like concepts of currency, or laws, and sometimes we can create gibberish in the way we associate language abstractions, as in this sentence: "Jangle elbow Denver Xslkfjei tincture happenstance drive angst Wilberforce temple swift oekjden."

We have the capacity to create abstractions that point to nothing or are otherwise meaningless. When one makes a claim that 'gods' exist, it is the subject of the abstraction, what the abstraction is meant to point to or represent, who's existence is in question, not the abstraction itself. It is silly to conflate the subject with the abstraction as a means of claiming existence of the subject based on the existence of the abstraction.
 
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