Neo Deist
Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Small correction...it is used only one time in the English translation of the Bible.
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Fall of Lucifer
- Thread starter feneluscliff
- Start date
Small correction...it is used only one time in the English translation of the Bible.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I was expanding on one quote (if you're talking to me).
That one quote notes only that Man is less than the angelic.
The rest of the post I must claim as my own....my ongoing line of reasoning.
I have recited the Lord's Prayer....and then considered....
The first two words are actually a declaration.
You declare yourself a son of God.
Heaven hears this.....so too the devil.
Then the words...Thy will on earth as it is in heaven....
This would be your agreement to God's will.....now....and then later.
As for the rebellion.....
I can see the cause of it.....and the line drawn.
How about you?
Nada
#
Lucifer is not satan the devil.The word Lucifer in Latin means light bearer,morning star.It comes from the original Hebrew word Hel el,meaning shining one.This word refers to the Babylonian Dynasty led by King Nebuchadnezzar.If you read Isaiah 14,you will see how it speaks of Lucifer as a man who will go down to the grave when all is done.I will show you the scriptures.
Isaiah 14:3,4. On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you,4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
12 How you have fallen from heaven,morning star, son of the dawn! (Lucifer)
You have been cast down to the earth,you who once laid low the nations!
When it speaks of falling down to earth,this is metaphorically,not literally.If you go to the book of Daniel,you will see where King Nebuchadnezzar brags about how he did everything on his own.In Nebuchadnezzar's heart he wanted to be like a god.
Daniel 4:30 he said, “Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?”
So we can see how this is the King, and Babylon, that is being spoken of in
Isaiah.
Also in Daniel 4:26 it compares Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom to a cut stump in the vision.The Kingdom would be restored after the 7 year curse on him.After he acknowledges God and the heavens.
So King Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom is the tree that has been cut down,but left a stump.This means his kingdom would be restored.The king was the tall tree in the vision and he was cut down by God.
Now go back to Isaiah 14:12. ".... You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!"
So this is judgment on King Nebuchadnezzar and his Dynasty.
Also,we know that satan the devil is reserved for the eternal lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
In Isaiah 14:15 it states, "But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit."
Another thing,Lucifer is called a man.
Isaiah 14:16,17.
Those who see you stare at you,they ponder your fate:“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,17 the man who made the world a wilderness,who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?”
So from this thorough study of scripture we can clearly see that Lucifer is not satan the devil.This is a common misconception based on traditional thinking of men that have no real biblical knowledge.It is taught by many, and this is how one sees who holds the truth.
Isaiah 14:3,4. On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you,4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
12 How you have fallen from heaven,morning star, son of the dawn! (Lucifer)
You have been cast down to the earth,you who once laid low the nations!
When it speaks of falling down to earth,this is metaphorically,not literally.If you go to the book of Daniel,you will see where King Nebuchadnezzar brags about how he did everything on his own.In Nebuchadnezzar's heart he wanted to be like a god.
Daniel 4:30 he said, “Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?”
So we can see how this is the King, and Babylon, that is being spoken of in
Isaiah.
Also in Daniel 4:26 it compares Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom to a cut stump in the vision.The Kingdom would be restored after the 7 year curse on him.After he acknowledges God and the heavens.
So King Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom is the tree that has been cut down,but left a stump.This means his kingdom would be restored.The king was the tall tree in the vision and he was cut down by God.
Now go back to Isaiah 14:12. ".... You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!"
So this is judgment on King Nebuchadnezzar and his Dynasty.
Also,we know that satan the devil is reserved for the eternal lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
In Isaiah 14:15 it states, "But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit."
Another thing,Lucifer is called a man.
Isaiah 14:16,17.
Those who see you stare at you,they ponder your fate:“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,17 the man who made the world a wilderness,who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?”
So from this thorough study of scripture we can clearly see that Lucifer is not satan the devil.This is a common misconception based on traditional thinking of men that have no real biblical knowledge.It is taught by many, and this is how one sees who holds the truth.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Nada
#
Lucifer was not God's favored angel.It is explained in post #23.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Xenosaga Dragonzord
Member
lucifer or iblis are jinn race.........not angel & jinn race have free will like human
Nada
#
That's what I have been telling many when the subject of Lucifer comes up Thief.I too believed this long ago.I literally thought that Satan the devils name was Lucifer because that is what we were all taught growing up.Come to find out that this is not true at all.When I did through research on my own,this is when I began to see all the discrepancies in peoples traditional beliefs compared to what the holy scriptures actually says.It is like night and day.If you look into who teaches this you will be very surprised.This is how one knows who speaks the truth about the holy scriptures and those who practice traditional beliefs of men.
Even if one is an Atheist,they can still see that the information being given by those who teach traditions, instead of biblical truth,are false in their teachings.
Watch this.... It is a video of a show on CW.It is showing just how mixed up people are about it because of false teachings.It shows Gabriel the Angel talking to who is supposed to be "Lucifer the angel"(satan).Gabriel is telling "Lucifer the angel" that God loved him more than Gabriel or Michael.It is all false but great for tv.
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EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Lucifer has nothing to do with the Abrahamic faiths, He is not mentioned in the Christian bible.
Lucifer is a pre-Christian deity of ancient Roman and Greek mythology. He is mentioned in Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses", which was written in 8 B.C.E., Roman poet Virgil mentions him as far back as 29 B.C.E. And the first mention is from Timaeus by Plato written 360 B.C.E
The title Lucifer was used for the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar as well as Jesus himself. This title however is directly associated with the Morning Star which appears even earlier in Phoenician/Canaan cosmology.
Lucifer is a pre-Christian deity of ancient Roman and Greek mythology. He is mentioned in Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses", which was written in 8 B.C.E., Roman poet Virgil mentions him as far back as 29 B.C.E. And the first mention is from Timaeus by Plato written 360 B.C.E
The title Lucifer was used for the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar as well as Jesus himself. This title however is directly associated with the Morning Star which appears even earlier in Phoenician/Canaan cosmology.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Nada
#
The book of Isaiah,which is in what is called the Old Testament,before Christianity, was written in 732 B.C.E. This is 700 years before those dates you showed.
Lucifer is just the Latin translation of what is merely a title meaning light bearer.It comes from the original word in Hebrew Hel el.The holy scriptures were written in Hebrew,Aramaic,and later Koine Greek.Never in Latin.The words roots are Hebrew.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Doubtful, Persian Emperor Cyrus (580 - 529 BC) lived well over one hundred years later. Yet The Book of Isaiah in Chapters 44 and 45 speaks of Cyrus . . . it is widely accepted that Isaiah the prophet did not write the book, the term Lucifer didn’t even exist in the Biblical ages, the Old Testament was written primarily in Hebrew, so the word Lucifer could not have been in their language.
It was St. Jerome who placed the word Lucifer into the Bible . . .
Isaiah 14:12 according to the Vulgate translation:
"Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestries"
The Hebrew translation had the word helel in the place of Lucifer, or rather St. Jerome replaced the word helel with Lucifer. Helel means ‘shining one’.
In 382 AD, Pope Damasus I commissioned St. Jerome to write a revision of the old Latin translation of the Bible. This task was completed sometime during the 5th century AD, and eventually it was considered the official and definite Latin version of the Bible according to the Roman Catholic church. By the 13th century it was considered the versio vulgate – the common translation.
Nada
#
Yes.This is called prophecy.
" it is widely accepted that Isaiah the prophet did not write the book,"
-EtuMalku
Isaiah did write the book.Here is some information on this.
"Unity of Writership. Certain Bible critics in modern times have contended that the book of Isaiah was not all written by Isaiah. Some claim that chapters 40 through 66 were written by an unidentified person who lived about the time of the end of the Jews’ Babylonian exile. Other critics pare off additional portions of the book, theorizing that someone other than Isaiah must have written them. But the Bible itself does not agree with these contentions.
Inspired writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures credited both the material now designated chapters 1 to 39 and chapters 40 to 66 to “Isaiah the prophet.” They never intimated that there were two persons who bore this name or that the name of the writer of part of the book was unknown. (For examples compare Mt 3:3 and 4:14-16 with Isa 40:3 and 9:1, 2; also Joh 12:38-41 with Isa 53:1 and 6:1, 10.) In addition to this, there are numerous other places where the Christian Greek Scripture writers specifically credit material quoted from the latter part of the book of Isaiah, not to an unidentified writer, but to “Isaiah the prophet.” (Compare Mt 12:17-21 with Isa 42:1-4; Ro 10:16 with Isa 53:1.) Jesus Christ himself, when he read from “the scroll of the prophet Isaiah” at the synagogue in Nazareth, was reading from Isaiah 61:1, 2.—Lu 4:17-19.
Furthermore, the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah (IQIsa, believed to have been copied toward the end of the second century B.C.E.) contains evidence that the copyist who penned it knew nothing of any supposed division in the prophecy at the close of chapter 39. He began the 40th chapter on the last line of the column of writing that contains chapter 39.
The entire book of Isaiah has been passed down through the centuries as a single work, not as two or more. The continuity from chapter 39 to chapter 40 is evident in what is recorded at Isaiah 39:6, 7, which is an obvious transition to what follows."
WOL
"The Hebrew translation had the word helel in the place of Lucifer, or rather St. Jerome replaced the word helel with Lucifer. Helel means ‘shining one’."
-EtuMalku
Yes...this is what I said in my earlier comment.Lucifer is just the Latin translation that came after the original languages of Hebrew,Aramaic and Koine Greek.Hel el was the original word in the holy scriptures.Here is my post again from post #33
Lucifer is just the Latin translation of what is merely a title meaning light bearer.It comes from the original word in Hebrew Hel el.The holy scriptures were written in Hebrew,Aramaic,and later Koine Greek.Never in Latin.The words roots are Hebrew.
Many confuse the holy scriptures that were written first, with the bible.The holy scriptures were written in Hebrew,Aramaic and Greek.What Jerome did was translate a revised version of the old Latin from the Hebrew script, instead of the Septuagint, into Latin, 300+ years after the last of the holy scriptures written by the disciples,around 98 C.E.
Isaiah 14:12
How are you fallen from heaven,
O Shining One, son of Dawn!
O Shining One, son of Dawn!
From the commentary in the Jewish Study Bible ...
The king's vain aspirations to god-like status are mocked. Isaiah refers ironically to the king as Shining One, son of Dawn, applying to him the name of a character from ancient Canaanite myth. [pg.812]
Rubbish.
Which is evidence of very little when applied to a text evolved centuries earlier.
Nada
#
Hey man come on now.If you are going to talk to me, please do so repectfully.Don't be telling things like "Rubbish." If you wan't to speak to others like that,go for it,but please do not contact me again with such words.
Thank you.
Sincerely,Bible Student.
I didn't contact you at all. I characterized a statement as rubbish because it was and is. Whine less.