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Fall of Lucifer

I didn't contact you at all. I characterized a statement as rubbish because it was and is. Whine less.

Your opinions are just that.Don't play games.It is addressed to me in post#38 Your mind is not right.You post a comment and addressed it to me .It's right there.When you reply to someone that is called addressing them.If you simply wanted to make a statement ,then you just post on the open forum.You didn't though,you replied to me and I received it because of this.I remember you now, and how you operate.I shall place you on ignore list since your tact and social skills are lacking.You seem to like to upset people and make sorry remarks.Rejected twice.......
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Your opinions are just that.
No, my opinions are positions informed by scholarship. So, for example ...

The Book of Isaiah (Hebrew: ספר ישעיה‎, "Sefer Yeshayahu") is the first of the Latter Prophets in the Hebrew Bible and the first of the Major Prophets in English Bibles. The book identifies itself as the words of the 8th century BCE prophet Isaiah ben Amoz, but there is ample evidence that much of it was composed during the Babylonian captivity and later. The scholarly consensus which held sway through most of the 20th century saw it as three separate collections of oracles:Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), containing the words of Isaiah; Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40–55), the work of an anonymous 6th-century author writing during the Exile; and Trito-Isaiah (chapters 56–66), composed after the return from exile. While virtually no-one today maintains that the entire book, or even most of it, was written by one person, a great deal of current research concentrates on the book's essential unity, with Isaiah 1–33 projecting judgement and restoration for Judah, Jerusalem and the nations, and chapters 34–66 presupposing that judgement has already taken place and restoration is at hand. It can thus be read as an extended meditation on the destiny of Jerusalem into and after the Exile.

...

While it is widely accepted that the book of Isaiah is rooted in a historic prophet called Isaiah, who lived in the Kingdom of Judah during the 8th century BCE, it is also widely accepted that this prophet did not write the entire book of Isaiah. The observations which have led to this are as follows:

  • Historical situation → Chapters 40–55 presuppose that Jerusalem has already been destroyed (they are not framed as prophecy) and the Babylonian exile is already in effect – they speak from a present in which the Exile is about to end. Chapters 56–66 assume an even later situation, in which the people are already returned to Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple is already under way.
  • Anonymity → Isaiah's name suddenly stops being used after chapter 39.
  • Style → There is a sudden change in style and theology after chapter 40; numerous key words and phrases found in one section are not found in the other.
These observations led scholars to the conclusion that the book can be conveniently divided into three sections, labelled Proto-Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, and Trito-Isaiah. Early modern-period scholars treated Isaiah as independent collections of sayings by three individual prophets, brought together at a much later period, about 70 BCE, to form the present book. The second half of the 20th century saw a marked change in approach, and scholars have begun to detect a deliberate arrangement of materials to give the book an overarching theological message.

The composition history of Isaiah reflects a major difference in the way authorship was regarded in ancient Israel and in modern societies: the ancients did not regard it as inappropriate to supplement an existing work while remaining anonymous. While the authors are anonymous, it is plausible that all of them were priests, and the book may thus reflect Priestly concerns, in opposition to the increasingly successful reform movement of the Deuteronomists. Wikipedia
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
The Fall of Lucifer 1/3

Please read Ezekiel 28;13-17 & Isaiah 14;12-14 KJV. Before beginning this study.


Lucifer in heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God’s dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic.A special light beamed in his countenance and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Christ, God’s dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Lucifer was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone. SR 13.1

The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that He might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon His Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by Himself that Christ, His Son, should be equal with Himself; so that wherever was the presence of His Son, it was as His own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son He had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was His Son to work in union with Himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out His will and His purposes but would do nothing of Himself alone. The Father’s will would be fulfilled in Him. SR 13.2

Lucifer was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels bowed to Jesus to acknowledge His supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, he bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into the special counsel of God in regard to His plans, while Lucifer was unacquainted with them. He did not understand, neither was he permitted to know, the purposes of God. But Christ was acknowledged sovereign of heaven, His power and authority to be the same as that of God Himself. Lucifer thought that he was himself a favorite in heaven among the angels. He had been highly exalted, but this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his Creator. He aspired to the height of God Himself. He gloried in his loftiness.He knew that he was honored by the angels. He had a special mission to execute. He had been near the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glorious light enshrouding the eternal God had shone especially upon him. He thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity.Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before himself? SR 14.1

He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host. He introduced his subject, which was himself. As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself. He told them that henceforth all the sweet liberty the angels had enjoyed was at an end. For had not a ruler been appointed over them, to whom they from henceforth must yield servile honor? He stated to them that he had called them together to assure them that he no longer would submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs; that never would he again bow down to Christ; that he would take the honor upon himself which should have been conferred upon him, and would be the commander of all who would submit to follow him and obey his voice. SR 14.2

There was contention among the angels. Lucifer and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They were discontented and unhappy because they could not look into His unsearchable wisdom and ascertain His purposes in exalting His Son, and endowing Him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. SR 15.1

Angels that were loyal and true sought to reconcile this mighty, rebellious angel to the will of his Creator. They justified the act of God in conferring honor upon Christ, and with forcible reasoning sought to convince Lucifer that no less honor was his now than before the Father had proclaimed the honor which He had conferred upon His Son. They clearly set forth that Christ was the Son of God, existing with Him before the angels were created; and that He had ever stood at the right hand of God, and His mild, loving authority had not heretofore been questioned; and that He had given no commands but what it was joy for the heavenly host to execute. They urged that Christ’s receiving special honor from the Father, in the presence of the angels, did not detract from the honor that Lucifer had heretofore received.The angels wept. They anxiously sought to move him to renounce his wicked design and yield submission to their Creator; for all had heretofore been peace and harmony, and what could occasion this dissenting, rebellious voice? SR 15.2


Discussion Question:

1) With whom did Satan really have a problem with? Jesus Christ or the Father?

2) "Lucifer was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone.Lucifer was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels bowed to Jesus to acknowledge His supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, he bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred." What are the two laws out of the ten,did he break according to the scriptures that lead to his fall?


3) How does the fall of Lucifer should change view attitude towards God's Law?


When answering the question place the number to which you are answering. Please use scriptures to support your answer. Thank you.


Actually I would like to tell you truth that only I and a few others know.

God is a tyrannical ruler. He doesn't have anywhere near as much power as he claims. However he has a gift for persuasion. No one remembers who was first but he claims to have been. However his power and right to rule is a lie. He held onto his kingdom of heaven for as long as he could. He made sure that the angels were ripped of their ability to think for themselves and they were imprisoned if you will under his rule. However they were slaves that loved their shackles. A few talented angels were given extra authority and the shackles were loosened.

Lucifer who was the most talented and intelligent of the angels first realized the truth. It was like suddenly waking up out of an illusion that now is shattered. He could see for the first time that they were simply enslaved rather than being ruled. He saw through god's facade and managed to even awaken some of the other angels out of the mass delusion. He started to do it in secret as he knew that the other angels would betray him and he got to the point where had nearly gotten 1/3rd of the kingdom awoken. However god found out had the remaining 2/3rd of the population throw him and the others out. Having suffered this loss he turns to try and foster life in a new world. The world already had life so he just had to alter it some.
However Lucifer had his connections as well and was able to give them the fruit of knowledge to at least give humans a fighting chance against god.
So now you know.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Actually I would like to tell you truth that only I and a few others know.

God is a tyrannical ruler. He doesn't have anywhere near as much power as he claims. However he has a gift for persuasion. No one remembers who was first but he claims to have been. However his power and right to rule is a lie. He held onto his kingdom of heaven for as long as he could. He made sure that the angels were ripped of their ability to think for themselves and they were imprisoned if you will under his rule. However they were slaves that loved their shackles. A few talented angels were given extra authority and the shackles were loosened.

Lucifer who was the most talented and intelligent of the angels first realized the truth. It was like suddenly waking up out of an illusion that now is shattered. He could see for the first time that they were simply enslaved rather than being ruled. He saw through god's facade and managed to even awaken some of the other angels out of the mass delusion. He started to do it in secret as he knew that the other angels would betray him and he got to the point where had nearly gotten 1/3rd of the kingdom awoken. However god found out had the remaining 2/3rd of the population throw him and the others out. Having suffered this loss he turns to try and foster life in a new world. The world already had life so he just had to alter it some.
However Lucifer had his connections as well and was able to give them the fruit of knowledge to at least give humans a fighting chance against god.
So now you know.

We have had debates before, you never brought any of tthis up. I feel like I was having false debates.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Yes.This is called prophecy.


" it is widely accepted that Isaiah the prophet did not write the book,"
-EtuMalku

Isaiah did write the book.Here is some information on this.


"Unity of Writership. Certain Bible critics in modern times have contended that the book of Isaiah was not all written by Isaiah. Some claim that chapters 40 through 66 were written by an unidentified person who lived about the time of the end of the Jews’ Babylonian exile. Other critics pare off additional portions of the book, theorizing that someone other than Isaiah must have written them. But the Bible itself does not agree with these contentions.

Inspired writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures credited both the material now designated chapters 1 to 39 and chapters 40 to 66 to “Isaiah the prophet.” They never intimated that there were two persons who bore this name or that the name of the writer of part of the book was unknown. (For examples compare Mt 3:3 and 4:14-16 with Isa 40:3 and 9:1, 2; also Joh 12:38-41 with Isa 53:1 and 6:1, 10.) In addition to this, there are numerous other places where the Christian Greek Scripture writers specifically credit material quoted from the latter part of the book of Isaiah, not to an unidentified writer, but to “Isaiah the prophet.” (Compare Mt 12:17-21 with Isa 42:1-4; Ro 10:16 with Isa 53:1.) Jesus Christ himself, when he read from “the scroll of the prophet Isaiah” at the synagogue in Nazareth, was reading from Isaiah 61:1, 2.—Lu 4:17-19.

Furthermore, the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah (IQIsa, believed to have been copied toward the end of the second century B.C.E.) contains evidence that the copyist who penned it knew nothing of any supposed division in the prophecy at the close of chapter 39. He began the 40th chapter on the last line of the column of writing that contains chapter 39.

The entire book of Isaiah has been passed down through the centuries as a single work, not as two or more. The continuity from chapter 39 to chapter 40 is evident in what is recorded at Isaiah 39:6, 7, which is an obvious transition to what follows."

WOL



"The Hebrew translation had the word helel in the place of Lucifer, or rather St. Jerome replaced the word helel with Lucifer. Helel means ‘shining one’."
-EtuMalku

Yes...this is what I said in my earlier comment.Lucifer is just the Latin translation that came after the original languages of Hebrew,Aramaic and Koine Greek.Hel el was the original word in the holy scriptures.Here is my post again from post #33

Lucifer is just the Latin translation of what is merely a title meaning light bearer.It comes from the original word in Hebrew Hel el.The holy scriptures were written in Hebrew,Aramaic,and later Koine Greek.Never in Latin.The words roots are Hebrew.

Many confuse the holy scriptures that were written first, with the bible.The holy scriptures were written in Hebrew,Aramaic and Greek.What Jerome did was translate a revised version of the old Latin from the Hebrew script, instead of the Septuagint, into Latin, 300+ years after the last of the holy scriptures written by the disciples,around 98 C.E.
Prophecy? Hardy har har . . .
Anyway . . . the Ideal Lucifer of the Roman / Greek cosmology is NOT the word that was placed into the Christian bible by Jerome.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Isaiah 14:12

How are you fallen from heaven,
O Shining One, son of Dawn!​

From the commentary in the Jewish Study Bible ...

The king's vain aspirations to god-like status are mocked. Isaiah refers ironically to the king as Shining One, son of Dawn, applying to him the name of a character from ancient Canaanite myth. [pg.812]​

I know. I should amend that my comment was in reference to the KJV.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
In my way of thinking metaphorically Satan had to fall or rebel, so as for us to live a life separate from the source or God, its the only way that we can feel and enjoy our creations, or God's creation, the problem begins when we forget our place in the cosmos, and that we are one with God..........and hence the return, that is seen in all religions, that is what religion truly is, to bring us back to our source or God.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
In my way of thinking metaphorically Satan had to fall or rebel, so as for us to live a life separate from the source or God, its the only way that we can feel and enjoy our creations, or God's creation, the problem begins when we forget our place in the cosmos, and that we are one with God..........and hence the return, that is seen in all religions, that is what religion truly is, to bring us back to our source or God.

Except that in that story, Adam and Chav'vah perform that function, and there is no evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh.

*
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Except that in that story, Adam and Chav'vah perform that function, and there is no evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh.

*
Yes I don't believe Satan was evil, but at the same time I don't believe Satan to be real, like I said its all metaphorical, just as God is.
 
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