Muffled
Jesus in me
Well none, as there is none posted.
I see the sun in the mirror would be best.
Regards Tony
I believe the sun does not have intelligence.
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Famous Trinity Diagram
- Thread starter rrobs
- Start date
I believe the sun does not have intelligence.
Skwim
Veteran Member
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you missed the false concept of family. Family members are single human entities. The Trinity is not.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Calling that belief false is illogical. By saying "may" I leave the door open for either answer which means that the answer will be true to my statement either way.
Skwim
Veteran Member
So what? "May" or no "may," it's still a false belief. Purge your mind Muffled . Purge your mind.
.
.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Well, I think you are neither right nor wrong depending on how one wishes to view it.
Just kidding...
rrobs
Well-Known Member
First of all, we need to know what the "word" really is. It's the Greek word "logos" and there is tons of information on the internet. Basically it means a plan that God had in mind. Specifically it was the plan of redemption He had in mind in case Adam and Eve blew it, which of course they did.
As far as the plan becoming flesh, you are right in saying that it could not literally become flesh. However, there are such things we all use in communication called figures of speech. A figure of speech is not meant to be taken literally. It is used to emphasize some point or another. The Bible, like all literature is full of them. Again, there is tons of information on the internet about figures of speech used in the Bible. John 1:14 is certainly one of them.
I think if you work it though you might see that Jesus was God's agent in carrying out the plan (the logos) that was in His mind from the beginning. Hebrews 1:1-2 tells us that throughout the OT God communicated His plan (logos) via several different ways, mostly the spoken word and the written word. Finally, as Hebrews 1:2 and John 1:14 say, Jesus was born and since He obeyed his Father's will to the letter, he was the perfect example of the plan, the logos. It is in that sense that the word became flesh. By using the figure of speech in John 1:14, it causes the reader to pause and really think about how perfectly Jesus really carried out the plan.
God had a plan for a man to redeem man and Jesus was the man who had the courage to carry it all the through to the cross.
Rom 5:15,
...For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Jesus had free will. Had he chosen at any time in his entire life to disobey God's will he would no longer have been the perfect image of God and John 1:14 would not have come to pass. God's plan is brilliant and Jesus' carrying it out is truly the greatest story ever told.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Come on, Tony. You gotta have a fair amount of intelligence just to pen words, be they right or wrong.
Come on, Tony. You gotta have a fair amount of intelligence just to pen words, be they right or wrong.
Thats true, well done you looked for the good.
I was muffled as what to say to such a reply.
Regards Tony
rrobs
Well-Known Member
On the other hand, you were absolutely right, something I thought of after my last reply; by simply reading what's written, you said it was the sun that has no intelligence. You really didn't say anything about the guy himself. You in now way insulted or degraded a fellow human being for which you also should get a well done.Thats true, well done you looked for the good.
I was muffled as what to say to such a reply.
Regards Tony
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Thanks. That is very interesting. But I think there is just as much reason to believe that the "Word" was Jesus in his pre-human form. He was with God and was God and then became flesh.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Have you read about the Bereans in chapter 17 in the Book of Acts? Basically Paul told them stuff about the scriptures which they had never heard before. It went against what they themselves believed. Instead of just blowing Paul off, "they searched the scriptures daily to see if the things Paul said were true."
I would strongly suggest you follow their lead and spend some time doing your own research to see if what I told you is true or not. I gave you plenty of material to chew on for some time. There is no way the scriptures can be understood until one understands the true nature of Jesus and God. Mixing them up all but makes the scriptures a closed book. You'll never understand the greatness of God's plan for redemption nor the accomplishment of Jesus in carrying out that plan. I know that by experience. I was also taught the trinity until someone told me what I am telling you. Once I turned to the true Jesus the scriptures opened up to me in a way that is absolutely impossible for a trinitarian. I guarantee 100% that the Jesus I preach is way more of hero than the Jesus of the trinity. Of course, if you are comfortable with tradition then stay with it. You'll see the truth when Jesus returns for you. Could be any day now!
God bless...
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that explanation. I do not believe God to be a trinity. I believe God is more like a family. Right now that family consists of a father and a son but in the future many more adopted sons and daugthers will be added. Jesus and the father existed before all else. Jesus was called the "Word" before He came to earth as a man. The Bible is very clear that the Word was with the Father at the beginning of creation and the Word became flesh as Jesus. And I agree that we will both know the truth when Jesus returns. I hope there is room for us both in His kingdom.Have you read about the Bereans in chapter 17 in the Book of Acts? Basically Paul told them stuff about the scriptures which they had never heard before. It went against what they themselves believed. Instead of just blowing Paul off, "they searched the scriptures daily to see if the things Paul said were true."
I would strongly suggest you follow their lead and spend some time doing your own research to see if what I told you is true or not. I gave you plenty of material to chew on for some time. There is no way the scriptures can be understood until one understands the true nature of Jesus and God. Mixing them up all but makes the scriptures a closed book. You'll never understand the greatness of God's plan for redemption nor the accomplishment of Jesus in carrying out that plan. I know that by experience. I was also taught the trinity until someone told me what I am telling you. Once I turned to the true Jesus the scriptures opened up to me in a way that is absolutely impossible for a trinitarian. I guarantee 100% that the Jesus I preach is way more of hero than the Jesus of the trinity. Of course, if you are comfortable with tradition then stay with it. You'll see the truth when Jesus returns for you. Could be any day now!
God bless...
rrobs
Well-Known Member
First of all, I'm quite certain they'll be room for both of us. It'll be interesting to meet all the people we've both talked to on this forum. Should be kinda neat to hang out out with Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, and the rest of the group.
John says the Word was with God in the beginning (John 1:1). That word was later manifested in the flesh as Jesus (John 1:14). That much John clearly says. But verse 1 it does not say that Jesus was with God nor that Jesus was the Word in the beginning. The Word became flesh much later in time. Before Jesus was born the Word was not flesh nor did Jesus exist. Just read what's written without adding anything.
Any way, not to beat a horse to death, but I just thought I'd throw in one last point there.
Take care...
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Thanks friend. I also hope we can all meet up some day. Just goes to show we can disagree on some points but agree on others. Makes life interesting.
Jeremiah David
New Member
Jesus has to be God, a lunatic, or a liar. He claimed to be the voice of the burning bush, יהוה, all throughout Scripture! God says, in Isaiah 44:6, “Thus saith the Lord (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord (YHWH) of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” - Let’s also look at Revelation 2, Jesus speaking, “To the messenger of the church in Smyrna, write: ‘The first and the last, who was dead and became alive, says this...” - Jesus claims to be the Redeemer, YHWH, of Isaiah. Not only that, but the vision which was given to Jesus who signified it and gave it to John was revealed to Jesus by God. This was not some abstract thought, it was given by the Father to the Son, then from the Son to the messenger, i.e. John.
Isaiah 44:6-8, “This is what YHWH says, the King of Israel, and its Redeemer, YHWH of the Heavenly Armies is his name, “I am the first and I am the last, and apart from me there is no God. Who is like me? Let him proclaim and declare it, and lay it out for himself, since he made an ancient people. And let him speak future events; let them tell him what will happen. Do not tremble, and do not be afraid. Did I not tell you and announce it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? There is no other Rock, I do not know of any.” Who is the Rock? None other than Jesus. God, through Paul, declares in 1 Corinthians 10, “And [the Israelites in the wilderness] drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from the spiritual rock that went with them. That rock was the Messiah.”
God says in John 8, “Then the Jewish leaders told him, “Now we really know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and so did the prophets, but you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? The prophets also died. Who are you making yourself out to be?” Jesus answered, “If I were trying to glorify myself, my glory would mean nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘H is our God.’ You do not know him, but I know him. If i were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jewish leaders asked him, “You are not even fifty years old, yet you have seen Abraham?” Jesus told them, “Truly I tell all of you emphatically, before there was an Abraham, I AM!” At this, they picked up stones to throw ay him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the Temple.” - Here, Jesus claimed, directly, to be the I AM, the voice of the burning bush, the one & true God. The Jewish leaders, keeping to their view of Him & the Law, picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy. A punishment that would be fitting had He been lying. Now, if one argues that Jesus is not the I AM, then Jesus was blaspheming, ergo sinning, ergo not the Messiah.
Thomas declares Jesus to be God, and Jesus does not rebuke him, in John 20, “Then he (Jesus) told Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Take out your hand, and put it into my side. Stop doubting, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
God, through Isaiah, spoke thusly, “For to us (mankind) a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
God says in Hebrews 1, “But about the Son [the Father] says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, anointed you rather than your companions with the oil of gladness.” And, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will come to an end but you will remain forever. They will come to an end but you will remain forever. They will all wear out like clothes. But you remain the same, and your life will never end.”
God in John 1 says, “In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God. He existed in the beginning with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life brought light to humanity. And the light shines on in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it out.” - and Genesis 1, “In the beginning God created the universe.”
Honestly, there are so many examples to show the clear teaching that the Messiah is God. The argument is really futile if the holder of the heretical view if they are diligent readers of Scripture.
Isaiah 44:6-8, “This is what YHWH says, the King of Israel, and its Redeemer, YHWH of the Heavenly Armies is his name, “I am the first and I am the last, and apart from me there is no God. Who is like me? Let him proclaim and declare it, and lay it out for himself, since he made an ancient people. And let him speak future events; let them tell him what will happen. Do not tremble, and do not be afraid. Did I not tell you and announce it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? There is no other Rock, I do not know of any.” Who is the Rock? None other than Jesus. God, through Paul, declares in 1 Corinthians 10, “And [the Israelites in the wilderness] drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from the spiritual rock that went with them. That rock was the Messiah.”
God says in John 8, “Then the Jewish leaders told him, “Now we really know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and so did the prophets, but you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? The prophets also died. Who are you making yourself out to be?” Jesus answered, “If I were trying to glorify myself, my glory would mean nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘H is our God.’ You do not know him, but I know him. If i were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jewish leaders asked him, “You are not even fifty years old, yet you have seen Abraham?” Jesus told them, “Truly I tell all of you emphatically, before there was an Abraham, I AM!” At this, they picked up stones to throw ay him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the Temple.” - Here, Jesus claimed, directly, to be the I AM, the voice of the burning bush, the one & true God. The Jewish leaders, keeping to their view of Him & the Law, picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy. A punishment that would be fitting had He been lying. Now, if one argues that Jesus is not the I AM, then Jesus was blaspheming, ergo sinning, ergo not the Messiah.
Thomas declares Jesus to be God, and Jesus does not rebuke him, in John 20, “Then he (Jesus) told Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Take out your hand, and put it into my side. Stop doubting, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
God, through Isaiah, spoke thusly, “For to us (mankind) a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
God says in Hebrews 1, “But about the Son [the Father] says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, anointed you rather than your companions with the oil of gladness.” And, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will come to an end but you will remain forever. They will come to an end but you will remain forever. They will all wear out like clothes. But you remain the same, and your life will never end.”
God in John 1 says, “In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God. He existed in the beginning with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life brought light to humanity. And the light shines on in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it out.” - and Genesis 1, “In the beginning God created the universe.”
Honestly, there are so many examples to show the clear teaching that the Messiah is God. The argument is really futile if the holder of the heretical view if they are diligent readers of Scripture.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I trust we can agree that the scriptures can not contradict themselves. If all those verses say Jesus is God, how do we square them with:
1 Cor 8:6,
But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
This clearly says the Father of Jesus is the one God. Therefore, Jesus, not being the Father, is not the one God.
I think you are reading too much into the verses you mentioned. For example, you stated that the burning bush was Jesus when the scriptures themselves say no such thing. Yes, Thomas called Jesus god. In the Hebrew culture of that time a god was understood as anybody with power and authority. That is easy to verify if you want. God called Moses a god to Pharaoh. Jesus even called the Jews gods (John 10:35) because the Almighty God had given them the scriptures. Even the devil is called a god (2 Cor 4:4 - the devil offered that power to Jesus in the desert).
Since Jesus had power and authority, he clearly qualified to be considered a god by the people, but the one true God, Yahweh, is still the Father.
Jesus always followed his Father's will despite being tempted just like you are tempted. Do you have any consciousness of being God when tempted?
1 John says, "...the word was God...", not "...Jesus was God...". That word (whatever it was) became flesh, i.e. Jesus, at some point in time. Before that it was the word, not Jesus. There is plenty of information on the internet on the word "logos" which is the Greek word translated as "word." Essentially it means a "plan." It's no surprise that God had a plan to redeem mankind. He said that in Genesis 3:15. Jesus was the man who carried out that plan to perfection. He was born without sin, just as Adam was created without sin. Of course Adam blew it but Jesus didn't. It doesn't mean Jesus was incapable of sin (he was just like us), but, but his free will (just like ours), he decided moment by moment to obey his Father. No big deal for God to obey Himself, but it's a different story altogether for a man to do that.
Making Jesus God is a disservice to both, to God for negating His brilliant plan in redeeming mankind with a sheep from among the flock (i.e. a human), to Jesus for minimizing his heroic effort as a man in carrying out that plan despite grave personal dangers, Did Jesus not ask God to remove the cup, that he could have asked for 10 legions of angels to rescue him? Did he not say, "not my will but thine be done?" God does not have two different wills! He obeyed because he loved, not because he was God.
In any case, all verses must fit with the clear declaration of 1 Corinthians 8:6 which says in 5th grade reading level that the one God is the Father. They also have to fit with the many declarations of Jesus himself that he could do nothing without the Father, that the Father knew things he himself did not know, that his Father was greater than himself, and many other clear verses that would make it quite impossible for Jesus to be God.
Either all verses must say Jesus is God or that he is not God. It is up to us as workmen of the word to make them all fit. I can say that most verses used to say Jesus is God really say nothing of the sort, the idea is introduced form sources outside the scriptures. On the other hand, there are many verses in the scriptures that clearly say Jesus is a man, not God or even a god-man. I'll give you one.
1Tim 2:5,
For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
God bless.
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The diagram was incoherent to begin with.
I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate with the numbers.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
For example:
God = 1
Jesus = 2
HS = 3
Substitute those numbers instead of the persons and it is clear the diagram is incoherent, as as is the trinity.