Fasad and the death penalty.

[stevecanuck]

The Qur'an contains the root word for 'corruption' (fasad [ألفَسَادَ] in Arabic) in 46 verses, and always in the context of being in opposition to the wishes of Allah. Verse 5:33 says that those who make war on Allah and His messenger, and who commit 'fasad' should either be killed or crucified, have limbs amputated, or be banished. The question, therefore, of what constitutes an act of 'fasad' literally becomes a matter of life and limb. The following verses give strong clues that simple lack of obedience to the god of Islam, the Qur'an, and Mohamed as God's messenger, is all that is required for a person to be guilty of 'fasad', and as such, eligible for a penalty up to and including death:


2:11-12 - And when it is said to them [the Hypocrites], "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, 'We are but reformers.' Unquestionably, it is they who are the corruptors ...

2:60 - When Moses prayed for rain, We told him to strike the rock with his staff. Thereupon twelve fountains gushed out of the rock and each tribe knew their drinking place. The Lord told them, "Eat and drink from God's bounties and do not abuse the earth with corruption."

2:220 - To this world and the Hereafter. And they ask you about orphans. Say, "Improvement for them is best. And if you mix your affairs with theirs - they are your brothers. And Allah knows the corruptor from the amender. [Do not cheat orphans.]

3:62-63 - ... And there is no deity except Allah ... But if they turn away, then indeed - Allah is Knowing of the corruptors. [Do not "turn away" from belief in Allah.]

7:56 - [in the context of believing in Allah] Do not do corruption in the land, after it has been set, right; and call on Him fearfully.

7:74 - Remember God's bounties, and do not mischief in the earth, working corruption.

7:85 - O my people, serve God! You have no god other than He; there has now come to you a clear sign from your Lord. So fill up the measure and the balance, and diminish not the goods of the people; and do not do corruption in the land, after it has been set right. [Do not cheat in commerce.]

7:86 - And do not sit on every path, threatening and averting from the way of Allah those who believe in Him, seeking to make it [seem] deviant. And remember when you were few and He increased you. And see how the end of those who corrupted was. [This verse regarding 'fasad' is the only one to suggest that unbelievers might harm Muslims. However, it says that threats alone count as an act of 'fasad'. Actual harm need not be inflicted.]

7:142 - ... Moses said to his brother Aaron, "Take my place among my people, do right [by them], and do not follow the way of the corruptors." [The 'corruptors' in this verse refer to worshippers of the golden calf. No physical harm to anyone occured.]

10:40 - There are those who believe in it [the Qur'an], and those who do not believe in it. And your Lord is most knowing of the corruptors. [This clearly states that disbelief alone suffices to label a person a corruptor.]

16:88 - Those that disbelieve and bar from the way of God -- they We shall give increase of chastisement upon chastisement, for that they were doing corruption.

26:50-52 - So fear Allah and obey me. And do not obey the order of the transgressors, Who cause corruption in the land and do not amend.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

 

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Salam

It depends on the context. In context of what constitutes a death penalty, it can't just be spiritual corruption but is referring to havoc on the security of the land.

There are some hadiths for example, a person who sheds his sword and threatens people with it, would be counted as that. I would say things like human trafficking and rape count among this since it disturbs the security of the land.

Highway robbers for example, would be counted as that. Not stealing normally, but threatening people and stealing from them gang style for example by threat of life.

 

[stevecanuck]

Salam

It depends on the context. In context of what constitutes a death penalty, it can't just be spiritual corruption but is referring to havoc on the security of the land.

No, it doesn't. I gave some very clear examples where simple unbelief is considered fasad.

 

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No, it doesn't. I gave some very clear examples where simple unbelief is considered fasad.

2:11-12 - And when it is said to them [the Hypocrites], "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, 'We are but reformers.' Unquestionably, it is they who are the corruptors ...

This verse shows there is a group of people cause corruption/havoc in the earth, but they don't realize it. Okay. It doesn't actually say it's all hypocrites, but hadiths suggests hypocrites are described there, so we can go with that it's the hypocrites.

You think it means we should kill all hypocrites, then why didn't Prophet (s) do so? In the Quran, hypocrites exist, but they are not killed for being that.

2:60 - When Moses prayed for rain, We told him to strike the rock with his staff. Thereupon twelve fountains gushed out of the rock and each tribe knew their drinking place. The Lord told them, "Eat and drink from God's bounties and do not abuse the earth with corruption."

The corruption in the earth is commanded not be done. Okay.

2:220 - To this world and the Hereafter. And they ask you about orphans. Say, "Improvement for them is best. And if you mix your affairs with theirs - they are your brothers. And Allah knows the corruptor from the amender. [Do not cheat orphans.]

Here it says corruptor, but it doesn't say in "the land". Here corruption means regarding their wealth and misuse of the government charity for their selfish reasons.

This is different then when the "in the earth" clause which is more about security well being in the lands.

3:62-63 - ... And there is no deity except Allah ... But if they turn away, then indeed - Allah is Knowing of the corruptors.

This is without the clause "in the earth".

7:56 - [in the context of believing in Allah] Do not do corruption in the land, after it has been set, right; and call on Him fearfully.

This is a command not to cause havoc in the land, again, I don't see what's wrong with God commanding this.

7:74 - Remember God's bounties, and do not mischief in the earth, working corruption.

Same as above.

7:85 - O my people, serve God! You have no god other than He; there has now come to you a clear sign from your Lord. So fill up the measure and the balance, and diminish not the goods of the people; and do not do corruption in the land, after it has been set right. [Do not cheat in commerce.]

Same as above.

7:86 - And do not sit on every path, threatening and averting from the way of Allah those who believe in Him, seeking to make it [seem] deviant. And remember when you were few and He increased you. And see how the end of those who corrupted was. [This verse regarding 'fasad' is the only one to suggest that unbelievers might harm Muslims. However, it says that threats alone count as an act of 'fasad'. Actual harm need not be inflicted.]

The corrupting ones were nations destroyed by God. Most of these oppressed believers and others, but again, the clause "in the earth" is not found.

7:142 - ... Moses said to his brother Aaron, "Take my place among my people, do right [by them], and do not follow the way of the corruptors." [The 'corruptors' in this verse refer to worshippers of the golden calf. No physical harm to anyone occured.]

It means don't go about causing mischief. However, I do agree with you Shirk is corrupting the soul and others and even causes (collectively) mischief in the lands. However, there is a difference in participation in an action that indirectly causes mischief in the land and the actual direct action.

10:40 - There are those who believe in it [the Qur'an], and those who do not believe in it. And your Lord is most knowing of the corruptors. [This clearly states that disbelief alone suffices to label a person a corruptor.]

True, but it's not in the land at least not directly.

16:88 - Those that disbelieve and bar from the way of God -- they We shall give increase of chastisement upon chastisement, for that they were doing corruption.

26:50-52 - So fear Allah and obey me. And do not obey the order of the transgressors, Who cause corruption in the land and do not amend.

The last verse suggests the leaders of disbelievers against that Prophet (s) were causing havoc in the land. He is telling them do not obey these wasteful people who causes corruption in the land and don't set things aright. Rather fear God and obey me.

The verse you quoted and also the one in Maeeda (Surah 5) are about direct Fasad. Meaning, you are directly doing it.

Disbelief, is an indirect way of supporting what causes all the mischief in the land. For example, Imam Al-Jewad (a) says "Three are partners, the oppressors, the supporter and the one who watches (and does nothing about it)".

Yet, legally, the oppressor is the one liable to his oppression in the Shariah. Neither supporter nor the silently watching are to be killed even if he kills.

So the verse you referred to as well as Maeda putting all together refers to the direct fasad fel arth, while, we can say, turning away from God's guidance is in a way causing murderers and corrupt rulers and mischief makers and opppressors to rule the earth, and is indirectly a corruption and killing others, it's not direct version.

It's for the direction version there is a death penalty.

 

[stevecanuck]

This verse shows there is a group of people cause corruption/havoc in the earth, but they don't realize it. Okay. It doesn't actually say it's all hypocrites, but hadiths suggests hypocrites are described there, so we can go with that it's the hypocrites.

You think it means we should kill all hypocrites, then why didn't Prophet (s) do so? In the Quran, hypocrites exist, but they are not killed for being that.

Because he needed them to augment his army. They are given dozens of warnings because Mohamed didn't want to give up on them as potential arrow fodder. It was actually funny to read all those warnings. It was like the parent who always says "I really mean it this time".

The corruption in the earth is commanded not be done. Okay.


Here it says corruptor, but it doesn't say in "the land". Here corruption means regarding their wealth and misuse of the government charity for their selfish reasons.

This is different then when the "in the earth" clause which is more about security well being in the lands.

Aw, c'mon. That was so weak. Where else are they going to commit corruption - on Mars???

 

[stevecanuck]

This is a command not to cause havoc in the land, again, I don't see what's wrong with God commanding this.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with Allah commanding people not to do things that are against his wishes. It's what the religion demands. I'm simply pointing out that your god says that those who don't obey him should be killed. That describes a religion of terror and tyranny. In other words - Islam.

 

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Aw, c'mon. That was so weak. Where else are they going to commit corruption - on Mars???

Within the soul.

 

[stevecanuck]

Within the soul.

I believe you're wrong about that.

I looked at every verse that contained 'fasad' as the root, and not once could I find an example in which it referred only to being corrupt in thought. They were all given in the context of actions.

Please prove me wrong, and please be specific.

 

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I believe you're wrong about that.

I looked at every verse that contained 'fasad' as the root, and not once could I find an example in which it referred only to being corrupt in thought. They were all given in the context of actions.

Please prove me wrong, and please be specific.

Qaroun is an example. He was considered a mufsid but really it was inward corruption.

That's not my main argument though. My main argument at the end is difference between direct fasad and indirect in the earth. There are other verses that show all transgressors are that with the clause "in the earth". You didn't post that verse, but it exists so it makes the contention we have over it not relevant.

Indirectly I explained happens when we don't support the truth, and condone falsehood and oppression. So in the Quran, there is really two type directly causing the corruption/havoc in the earth. One that is direct which merits death penalty and one that is indirect, which is be opposed in different ways and fixed in different ways.

 

[stevecanuck]

@Link

On second thought, it doesn't really matter if corruption occurs in mind or deed, because it still means that people should be killed for unIslamic activity OR thought.

 

[stevecanuck]

Qaroun is an example. He was considered a mufsid but really it was inward corruption.

That's not my main argument though. My main argument at the end is difference between direct fasad and indirect in the earth. There are other verses that show all transgressors are that with the clause "in the earth". You didn't post that verse, but it exists so it makes the contention we have over it not relevant.

Indirectly I explained happens when we don't support the truth, and condone falsehood and oppression. So in the Quran, there is really two type directly causing the corruption/havoc in the earth. One that is direct which merits death penalty and one that is indirect, which is be opposed in different ways and fixed in different ways.

I was typing the above post when I saw that you answered with this.

The fact that people should be killed in accordance with Islamic fiat for unIslamic thought makes your religion even worse.

 

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I was typing the above post when I saw that you answered with this.

The fact that people should be killed in accordance with Islamic fiat for unIslamic thought makes your religion even worse.

It would make it a false religion and a very bad one. I agree with that, but is Islam teaching this? I don't think so and shown reasons why.

 

[stevecanuck]

It would make it a false religion and a very bad one. I agree with that, but is Islam teaching this? I don't think so and shown reasons why.

No, you haven't shown it - you've justified it.

Islam calls for people to be killed for the 'crime' of espousing non-Islamic ideas. Pure and simple. Oh, and evil. Don't forget that it's evil.