Fascinating!

[cladking]

Order never happens without intelligent direction according to my observations. Who created the laws governing what you call " natural" ? What is "natural" exactly? What happened to the law of cause and effect? You can ignore it when it suits?

This is just a manifestation of logic. With different lengths the pendulums all have different periods so they clock out so as to form patterns.

Obviously it might have been God who set the logic of reality but this hardly constitutes evidence for a Creator, IMO.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey, I'm at least that smart. My friends all agree I'm smarter than the average picinic basket.

I'm rarely fooled and shouldn't have been with this one. But I saw a version that claimed it wasn't known why this happens and anyone can be thrown by a lie or by intent.

Be careful about associating your self with pickanick baskets.
Our resident pickanick basket inspector, @Wu Wei, is very thorough....& dangerous.

 

[Deeje]

She toys with us.
We're an ant farm in the sun, & she's the kid with the magnifying glass.
Or we're rats running thru her devious maze loaded with treats & traps.

And I thought I was foolin y'all.....

beware of the bacon trail......you will not know where it leads until its too late....

 

[Deeje]

This is just a manifestation of logic. With different lengths the pendulums all have different periods so they clock out so as to form patterns.

Obviously it might have been God who set the logic of reality but this hardly constitutes evidence for a Creator, IMO.

Each one must make up their own minds about what is "natural".....who created "natural" anyway? If laws exist then the logical conclusion is that there is a lawmaker. Laws show intent or purpose....intent and purpose shows intelligence.....God is that intelligence.....that is what is logical to me.

 

[cladking]

Be careful about associating your self with pickanick baskets.
Our resident pickanick basket inspector, @Wu Wei, is very thorough....& dangerous.

That's probably sound advice but I might be smarter than the average bear as well.

 

[cladking]

Each one must make up their own minds about what is "natural".....who created "natural" anyway? If laws exist then the logical conclusion is that there is a lawmaker. Laws show intent or purpose....intent and purpose shows intelligence.....God is that intelligence.....that is what is logical to me.

Yes, perhaps.

Did God create mathematics or did man discover it? I don't recall much talk about it in the Bible though I confess I never read all of numbers.

There is very much an "intelligence" to reality but I can't say it is caused by a Creator or just its nature. Certainly consciousness displays "intelligence" yet we seem to ignore it except for human consciousness.

 

[Polymath257]

Order never happens without intelligent direction according to my observations. Who created the laws governing what you call " natural" ? What is "natural" exactly? What happened to the law of cause and effect? You can ignore it when it suits?

First, order frequently happens without intelligent agency. Spontaneous order is actually pretty common in the natural world. Easy cases are the spherical shapes of larger bodies. These are simply the action of gravity producing a minimal volume-> a sphere.

I can give a host of other examples where the simple application of natural laws produces order spontaneously, from convection cells to crystal formation.

Why do you think the laws of nature (which merely describe the properties of matter and energy and are NOT proscriptive laws) were 'created', let alone created by an intelligence?

The 'law' of cause and effect Isn't nearly uniform as you seem to think. First of all, it is incredibly subtle to even define what it means to be a 'cause'. Second, one of our best scientific theories, quantum mechanics, is not a causal theory. Instead of the causes that existed in classical theory, there are probabilities and numerous possibilities instead of a single effect. Third, there simply is no general law of 'cause and effect'. The closest I know of is a law of causality in quantum field theories, but that only says that events that are outside of their respective light cones are uncorrelated.

So it isn't being ignored. It isn't even a true law to begin with.

In fact, I'll go further. To even talk about causality requires there to be natural laws of some sort. It is only through the action of such laws that anything is *ever* caused to happen. This means two important things: 1.the most fundamental natural laws *cannot* be caused. and 2. Time itself cannot be caused: all causes are within time.

 

[Polymath257]

Each one must make up their own minds about what is "natural".....who created "natural" anyway? If laws exist then the logical conclusion is that there is a lawmaker.

Wrong. You are confusing proscriptive laws (like man-made laws) which can be broken, but are punished when they are, with *descriptive* laws, which merely describe the properties of things.

Laws show intent or purpose....intent and purpose shows intelligence.....God is that intelligence.....that is what is logical to me.

Only proscriptive laws show such purpose. Bu tthe only proscriptive laws we know of are produced by humans.

 

[Deeje]

Did God create mathematics or did man discover it? I don't recall much talk about it in the Bible though I confess I never read all of numbers.

The whole universe is based on mathematics. Even on earth the Fibonacci sequence never ceases to fascinate mathematicians. To my way of thinking, who can discover something that is not first created by some-one or some-thing?

There is very much an "intelligence" to reality but I can't say it is caused by a Creator or just its nature. Certainly consciousness displays "intelligence" yet we seem to ignore it except for human consciousness.

Intelligence is demonstrated everywhere in nature.....does DNA just occur for no reason? It is a code that is used in the construction of all biological species. How do the cells in the body, programmed by the DNA, know how to become a specific body part and to perform a specific function in that body? Does that sound like a fluke to you?

DNA is an information code....can such a code exist by chance? Don't all codes need an intelligent writer?

 

[Deeje]

First, order frequently happens without intelligent agency. Spontaneous order is actually pretty common in the natural world. Easy cases are the spherical shapes of larger bodies. These are simply the action of gravity producing a minimal volume-> a sphere.

I can give a host of other examples where the simple application of natural laws produces order spontaneously, from convection cells to crystal formation.

Why do you think the laws of nature (which merely describe the properties of matter and energy and are NOT proscriptive laws) were 'created', let alone created by an intelligence?

The 'law' of cause and effect Isn't nearly uniform as you seem to think. First of all, it is incredibly subtle to even define what it means to be a 'cause'. Second, one of our best scientific theories, quantum mechanics, is not a causal theory. Instead of the causes that existed in classical theory, there are probabilities and numerous possibilities instead of a single effect. Third, there simply is no general law of 'cause and effect'. The closest I know of is a law of causality in quantum field theories, but that only says that events that are outside of their respective light cones are uncorrelated.

So it isn't being ignored. It isn't even a true law to begin with.

In fact, I'll go further. To even talk about causality requires there to be natural laws of some sort. It is only through the action of such laws that anything is *ever* caused to happen. This means two important things: 1.the most fundamental natural laws *cannot* be caused. and 2. Time itself cannot be caused: all causes are within time.

I don't think you can hear yourself through the ears of a believer in Intelligent Design.....what you wave away and justify to me is just nonsense. You can believe it is all a fluke if you like...it matters little to me.

 

[cladking]

The whole universe is based on mathematics.

First I disagree but that might not be relevant.

If the universe is based on math then what is God's function? Did He invent math? Did He cause the universe to obey math? What is so surprising about the pendulums if they merely obey mathematical law?

 

[Deeje]

First I disagree but that might not be relevant.

If the universe is based on math then what is God's function?

He is a mathematical genius who uses math and calculus in everything he does. Laws are so precise that we could set our watch by them.

Did He invent math?

He is the first cause of everything that exists....so I guess he did. But who can say for sure?

Did He cause the universe to obey math?

Think about that question for a moment.....can anyone or anything obey a law that has no purpose? Why do laws exist so that the universe must obey them in the first place? What purpose is demonstrated in the existence of a universal law? Is the purpose deliberate or just a lucky fluke? How many lucky flukes would it take to explain the universe, the earth and its inhabitants?

What is so surprising about the pendulums if they merely obey mathematical law?

Not surprising at all if they had intelligence to evaluate the law that they are following.....but these things are mindless and yet they obey.....I said it was fascinating.....which it undeniably is.

 

[ecco]

Order never happens without intelligent direction according to my observations.

Deeje, we are well aware of the fact that you believe God individually creates each and every snowflake.

 

[ecco]

Wrong. You are confusing proscriptive laws (like man-made laws) which can be broken, but are punished when they are, with *descriptive* laws, which merely describe the properties of things.

One of the great failings of language is that there are multiple uses for individual words.

Imagine how much less confusion there would be if someone had called them bidilgips instead of lasw.:

Newton's bidilgips of Gravity.

The bidilgips of Nature.

The bidilgip of conservation of energy.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't think you can hear yourself through the ears of a believer in Intelligent Design.....what you wave away and justify to me is just nonsense. You can believe it is all a fluke if you like...it matters little to me.

Which things that I 'wave away'? Spheres are the solutions to many minimization problems in math. So a mass that has enough gravity *will* settle into a sphere (somewhat oblate if it is rotating). This is somewhat like the pendulums in your other post: nothing miraculous here, just the action of natural laws.

Similarly, if you heat a thin layer of water but don't allow it to boil, there will *spontaneously* for what are known as convection cells. In the right setting, they will form a very orderly array of hexagonal cells purely naturally.

My comments about causality and quantum mechanics are well supported by observation, even the very counter-intuitive aspects. The universe just doesn't need to work by rules that you or I find to be intuitive.

And as for the creation of the natural laws, once again, the process of creation itself depends on the action of natural laws. There is nothing that happens without them.

 

[Polymath257]

Think about that question for a moment.....can anyone or anything obey a law that has no purpose? Why do laws exist so that the universe must obey them in the first place? What purpose is demonstrated in the existence of a universal law? Is the purpose deliberate or just a lucky fluke? How many lucky flukes would it take to explain the universe, the earth and its inhabitants?



Not surprising at all if they had intelligence to evaluate the law that they are following.....but these things are mindless and yet they obey.....I said it was fascinating.....which it undeniably is.

Once again, it takes no intelligence to follow a natural law. If things have properties, then they interact in some way. Natural laws simply describe how things act. There is no violation of the *fundamental* natural laws: if a 'law' is violated, ever, it simply means it wasn't really the correct law.

 

[Wu Wei]

Hey, I'm at least that smart. My friends all agree I'm smarter than the average picinic basket.

I'm rarely fooled and shouldn't have been with this one. But I saw a version that claimed it wasn't known why this happens and anyone can be thrown by a lie or by intent.

Be careful about associating your self with pickanick baskets.
Our resident pickanick basket inspector, @Wu Wei, is very thorough....& dangerous.

Don't listen to him......

 

[Deeje]

Deeje, we are well aware of the fact that you believe God individually creates each and every snowflake.

Well, you are typically mistaken, as usual.

We believe that the mechanisms that create these amazing designs in nature were put in place by the Creator from the beginning. He has better things to do than individually design snowflakes....just as he has better things to do than individually design humans or any other living thing. His designs replicate themselves with no direct intervention from him. Is that rocket science?

 

[Deeje]

Once again, it takes no intelligence to follow a natural law. If things have properties, then they interact in some way. Natural laws simply describe how things act. There is no violation of the *fundamental* natural laws: if a 'law' is violated, ever, it simply means it wasn't really the correct law.

My approach to creation is fairly simple Ploymath....."cause and effect" means that whatever you see has a cause. If I see a jar of honey in the supermarket, I don't have to wonder where the honey came from. I already know that bees take nectar from flowers to make this delicious syrup that is stored in a brilliantly designed hexagonal capsule, sealed with another amazingly useful substance...beeswax. They also pollinate flowers in their assignment, which makes them a vital component in a complex ecology.

So where do bees come from? How did they get to design their extraordinary storage system and to contain this amazing fluid in a vertical position, sealed with something else that they can manufacture?
How did they get to become such a vital part of the continuation of life?

You can throw all the scientific jargon at the scenario, but my logic will fight with it at the most basic level.

All that we see on earth and in the wider universe, has a cause that science cannot explain at that most basic level. This is where I believe it fails.

"Natural" laws don't just pop up out of nowhere. They are purposeful and demonstrate often exquisite design.....my God is the Designer. Nothing science has to offer will ever replace him. The world and life itself makes no sense without him.

I don't just believe that God exists........I KNOW he does. It is totally illogical to me that design has no Designer who has a purpose for everything.

 

[ecco]

Well, you are typically mistaken, as usual.

We believe that the mechanisms that create these amazing designs in nature were put in place by the Creator from the beginning. He has better things to do than individually design snowflakes....just as he has better things to do than individually design humans or any other living thing.

What do you mean when you say "from the beginning"? Do you mean from the time the Creator came into existence? Do you mean from the time the Creator created the universe? Do you mean from the time the Creator created Adam & Eve?


What better things is He doing? Watching thousands die because of droughts? Watching His Christain Soldiers kill witches?