Fascism - Why...

[Friend of Mara]

The US has never been a Capitalist nor Socialist country, it is a "Market Economy". It has free enterprise as well as socialist programs and policies.

Neat.

 

[Quagmire]

That sounds like the excessively pessimistic views that it's Lord of Flies and everyone suddenly loses thousands and thousands of years of evolution that shapped us into who we are as a species, and centuries of political developments that aren't going to be erased from existence or forgotten.

In the grand scale thousands of years is the blink of an eye. We were tribal for hundreds of thousands of years, and in my opinion psychologically we still are.

I see plenty of evidence for that everywhere I look.

 

[Kfox]

I'm not. My father fought against religious bigotry and the demonization of blacks, gays, history deniers and intellectuals. Same thing Antifa does today.

I've seen plenty of Antifa rioters, and I've never seen them fight against bigotry, oppression of blacks & gays, or any other minority; as a matter of fact they only riot and destroy cities where blacks, and gays are least likely to be oppressed! The only ones I've seen Antifa of today attack were store owners, and the police.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In the grand scale thousands of years is the blink of an eye. We were tribal for hundreds of thousands of years, and in my opinion psychologically we still are.

I see plenty of evidence for that everywhere I look.

We're still social animals, however, and we've been evolving that way before the species we are came into existence. And centuries of political developments have made things like the UN Declaration of Human Rights something that has found support around the world.
Too many people have tasted freedom and liberty for fascism to be most people. Then it becomes like a Nietzsche metaphor sayijg it's not social justice when the lion turns violent when a piece of meat in front of it is taken away.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've seen plenty of Antifa rioters

I am so sure you have.

 

[icehorse]

... do so many Americans desperately want it?

("inspired" by the thread regarding Trump at the next election)

Sadly, I think that at both ends of the political spectrum there are influential groups promoting fascism.

 

[Firenze]

When Trump entered office, the economy grew by leaps and bounds. After Covid hit, we purposely destroyed the economy because we thought it would help end covid (wrong) But destroying the economy was not a part of his policies, his governing policies was what built it up in the beginning of his presidency. People who like Trump like his governing policies, not the way we destroyed the economy due to Covid

These the same people that drank bleach?

 

[Soandso]

These the same people that drank bleach?

And ingested anti-inflamatory medicine and horse dewormer

 

[Estro Felino]

You seem woefully unable to read the players. Something I thought would be detrimental to a jurist.

How much time have you actually spent truly listening to Donald Trump. Really listening?

Lots of time.
Real fascists are for universal healthcare and universal pension system.
Read Mussolini's laws.
I wish Trump was a fascist. At least he would be for universal healthcare.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Lots of time.
Real fascists are for universal healthcare and universal pension system.
Read Mussolini's laws.
I wish Trump was a fascist. At least he would be for universal healthcare.

Pol Pot was for those things? Stalin? Mao? Julius Ceasar? Lycurgus?

 

[Secret Chief]

I wish Trump was a fascist. At least he would be for universal healthcare.

If he was, can you think of any downsides to him being a fascist?

 

[exchemist]

That's different. That's not fascism.

I don’t think anybody denies Donald Trump has his share of flaws, there are plenty of negative adjectives that can be used to describe him. The way a Trump supporter described it to me was;

"when your house is on fire, the moral integrity of the firefighter though important; is secondary to his ability to do the job at hand; putting out the fire."

These people see the economy of this country as akin to a house on fire, and though trump may be a bully, a bragger, with countless other flaws, he governed in a way that brought the economy up to record levels, and this is what they liked about him.

What you are now saying is these people are prepared to risk the overthrow of US democracy, the destruction of faith in its legal system and the embrace of a semi-dictator, for basically the same reasons that were used to justify Mussolini, who was said to have "made the trains run on time".

Actually I'm not sure your analysis of their motives for preferring Trump really stands up. Trump has, from the start, made the core of his campaign style culture war issues that are nothing to do with the economy: nativism, dogwhistle white supremacy, religious fundamentalism, and the gaslighting of the public through promotion of lies and conspiracy theories.

As for the economy, where's the "fire", if Trump did such a great job in his last term? Has the US economy tanked disastrously under Biden? We see little evidence of that over here in Europe.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Lots of time.
Real fascists are for universal healthcare and universal pension system.
Read Mussolini's laws.
I wish Trump was a fascist. At least he would be for universal healthcare.

I can find nothing about your claim defining "real fascists" anywhere.

 

[Kfox]

What you are now saying is these people are prepared to risk the overthrow of US democracy, the destruction of faith in its legal system and the embrace of a semi-dictator, for basically the same reasons that were used to justify Mussolini, who was said to have "made the trains run on time".

No, concerning that foolishness of January 6, that was no real attempt to overthrow US democracy, that was just a bunch of emotional sore losers whose emotions got the best of them. When they stormed the capital, what did they do? Did they reinforce their positions and prepare for a fight? Did they provide a list of demands? Take hostages? No; none of that! Once they took over they walked around (like a dog chasing a car, when the car stops) took a few pictures, then left without further incident; the whole thing lasted less than 2 hours. If they really wanted to overthrow democracy, they would have had a plan in place and attempted to implement it. Trump and his followers did not attempt to overthrow democracy, they were just being sore losers because they lost the election

Actually I'm not sure your analysis of their motives for preferring Trump really stands up. Trump has, from the start, made the core of his campaign style culture war issues that are nothing to do with the economy: nativism, dogwhistle white supremacy, religious fundamentalism, and the gaslighting of the public through promotion of lies and conspiracy theories.

What did he do to give you the impression he did all of those things?
I will respond to the rest later

 

[anna.]

When fascists don't like who won an election, they don't mind subverting the will of the people to 'fix' the inconvenience of having lost.

Jan. 6 being the preeminent example, but here it is at the state level:

Republicans threaten to impeach newly elected Wisconsin supreme court judge

Smarting after Janet Protasiewicz’s election to the state’s highest court, Republicans are now changing tack to challenge Democrats

www.theguardian.com

Republicans in Wisconsin are threatening to remove from office the newly elected state supreme court justice Janet Protasiewicz if she refuses to recuse herself from cases involving gerrymandering. The effort comes on the heels of Republicans in the state senate advancing a move to oust the state’s top elections official.​

​

The efforts to remove Protasiewicz and the Wisconsin elections commission administrator, Meagan Wolfe, from office have been decried by Democrats and government watchdog groups as undemocratic and could affect the administration of elections in 2024.​

​

Protasiewicz won her election in April in a landslide – an uncommon victory in Wisconsin, where statewide elections are often determined by narrow margins. The race drew massive spending for both sides, with spending by special interest groups and campaign contributions topping $45m, making the race the most expensive state judicial election in US history.​

 

[exchemist]

No, concerning that foolishness of January 6, that was no real attempt to overthrow US democracy, that was just a bunch of emotional sore losers whose emotions got the best of them. When they stormed the capital, what did they do? Did they reinforce their positions and prepare for a fight? Did they provide a list of demands? Take hostages? No; none of that! Once they took over they walked around (like a dog chasing a car, when the car stops) took a few pictures, then left without further incident; the whole thing lasted less than 2 hours. If they really wanted to overthrow democracy, they would have had a plan in place and attempted to implement it. Trump and his followers did not attempt to overthrow democracy, they were just being sore losers because they lost the election

Trump and his team tried to overturn the election by a variety of means, not only by encouraging the insurrection at the Capitol - though Trump's performance on that alone would put him beyond the pale in the eyes of anyone that cares about the democratic process. There was also the mafioso-style phone call to Georgia to "find" 11,000 votes, the business with fake electors, the vexatious lawsuits all over the country (more than 60 of them, all thrown out by the judges), the lies about alleged flaws in the Dominion voting machines, and so on. All of which is unprecedented, quite disgusting and evidence of a determined attempt to subvert the democratic process.

 

[Stevicus]

As for the economy, where's the "fire", if Trump did such a great job in his last term? Has the US economy tanked disastrously under Biden? We see little evidence of that over here in Europe.

I think the U.S. economy has been in a slow decline for decades, largely due to torpor, mismanagement, corruption, and various misguided policies advocated by laissez-faire conservative economists (which even Democrats went along with). It's not something that can be laid solely at one individual's feet, or even on one party. It's not really Biden's fault, although there is visible evidence of economic decline, such as the growing number of homeless encampments around the country, the general deterioration of the infrastructure, the rising crime rates, apparent labor shortages, supply chain difficulties.

I wouldn't say that the economy has "tanked disastrously" - at least not yet. However, there are enough indicators to give some people cause for concern. The question is, does Biden or any other politician have any plan or proposal to fix it, other than continue with the status quo and go on doing what we've been doing and hope for the best?

What I find ironic is that there are things that could be done right now to forestall or fend off any possible growth of fascism in the United States, yet at the same time, I see such a pronounced intransigence when it comes to making any real meaningful reforms or changes in the economic or social systems in this country.

 

[exchemist]

I think the U.S. economy has been in a slow decline for decades, largely due to torpor, mismanagement, corruption, and various misguided policies advocated by laissez-faire conservative economists (which even Democrats went along with). It's not something that can be laid solely at one individual's feet, or even on one party. It's not really Biden's fault, although there is visible evidence of economic decline, such as the growing number of homeless encampments around the country, the general deterioration of the infrastructure, the rising crime rates, apparent labor shortages, supply chain difficulties.

I wouldn't say that the economy has "tanked disastrously" - at least not yet. However, there are enough indicators to give some people cause for concern. The question is, does Biden or any other politician have any plan or proposal to fix it, other than continue with the status quo and go on doing what we've been doing and hope for the best?

What I find ironic is that there are things that could be done right now to forestall or fend off any possible growth of fascism in the United States, yet at the same time, I see such a pronounced intransigence when it comes to making any real meaningful reforms or changes in the economic or social systems in this country.

I should have thought Biden's famous "Inflation Reduction" Act was an attempt at the sort of Roosevelt-style domestic pump-priming that would help. But he doesn't seem to be getting much credit for that.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Lots of time.
Real fascists are for universal healthcare and universal pension system.
Read Mussolini's laws.
I wish Trump was a fascist. At least he would be for universal healthcare.

It's "fascist" to support universal healthcare?!

That's a new one...

 

[Left Coast]

Call me cynical but I think most people in most places would be all for fascism as long as the fascists were on their side.

Although very few of the people benefiting from it would call it that.

In political science, some theorists have imagined the political spectrum as a circle, where the extreme ends actually come back around and meet each other. Authoritarian regimes are often similar, whether they arrived there through a right-wing or left-wing lens.