Fascism - Why...

[Friend of Mara]

I'm beginning to think there's a world short of dictionaries.

My current guess is that they are attempting to make a semantic argument. I am curious to see what it rounds back too. I think I know where its going and hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[Estro Felino]

There might be a mouse living in your walls and you wouldn’t know it. But if there was an elephant sleeping in your bed you would notice it.

That is why I spoke of God. God sees and knows anything. Even the slightest thing done secretly.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No; hierarchy implies more RANK than you. Many structures require hierarchy in order to get things done.

Probably not as many as people think.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yeah.... There is no gay gene

Do you think people choose to be gay (or straight)? Like choosing to support a particular football team?

 

[Estro Felino]

I was thinking of the last scene of the movie I'm back, where a journalist asks Katya Bellini: "don't you think it's immoral that you are legitimizing Fascism?" and she replies: "I think speaking of Fascism after more than 70 years have passed is definitely old-fashioned".

Yes...I think that using the word fascism to define Trump...it's out.

 

[Kfox]

Except it is in every single instance of fascism we have ever seen.

It's also in every single instance of socialism, democracy, communism, or republic that we have ever seen. No surprise there!

What does it mean to disagree with homosexuality in this case that wouldn't lead to homophobia in your mind?

That is the point the person you were making that I objected to isn't it? You said: " Homophobes don't just "disagree" with homosexuality they disagree with a whole group of people who exist as they are "

 

[Kfox]

I don’t know what you mean by disagree. Seems like a vague term in this context.

That is the phrase the person I was debating with used. I assume it means to disapprove of.

But if judge someone, if you think their sexual expression is less valid than yours or should not be allowed, then I am pretty comfortable calling a person like that a bigot.

So you agree with the point I was making?

 

[Kfox]

Probably not as many as people think.

Name an economic structure that does not have a hierarchy, Name a political structure, a business, an economic system, an enterprise that does not have hierarchy.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yeah.... There is no gay gene

Perhaps not a single gene -- but if there is nothing genetic going on, you will have an absolutely terrible time explaining this:

Homosexual orientation in twins: a report on 61 pairs and three triplet sets​

F L Whitam 1, M Diamond, J Martin
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 8494487
• DOI: 10.1007/BF01541765

Abstract​

Twin pairs in which at least one twin is homosexual were solicited through announcements in the gay press and personal referrals from 1980 to the present. An 18-page questionnaire on the "sexuality of twins" was filled out by one or both twins. Thirty-eight pairs of monozygotic twins (34 male pairs and 4 female pairs) were found to have a concordance rate of 65.8% for homosexual orientation. Twenty-three pairs of dizygotic twins were found to have a concordance rate of 30.4% for homosexual orientation. In addition, three sets of triplets were obtained. Two sets contained a pair of monozygotic twins concordant for sexual orientation with the third triplet dizygotic and discordant for homosexual orientation. A third triplet set was monozygotic with all three concordant for homosexual orientation. These findings are interpreted as supporting the argument for a biological basis in sexual orientation.

 

[metis]

I am not understanding something:
the problem here is Trump only, or DeSantis is a problem, as well?
I mean...who said that Trump will be the 2024 candidate?

I wouldn't say that DeSantis is into neo-fascism, but Trump certainly is, and time will tell if Trump is going to be able to run in the general election next year.

 

[metis]

I've yet to meet anyone calling themselves a Democrat who "idolizes Soros."

Yes, that is not only a bogus claim but is also dangerously close to being anti-Semitic as this meme is used by many anti-Semites.

 

[Colt]

... do so many Americans desperately want it?

("inspired" by the thread regarding Trump at the next election)

We don't! Most people don't know what the original Fascist Manifesto contained. Today it seems everyone other than one's own political hero's is a "Fascist"!

So, lets look at the elements of the actual Fascist Manifesto that originated the term! and see which party favors more of it's elements.

Contents of the Fascist Manifesto​

The Manifesto (published in Il Popolo d'Italia on June 6, 1919) is divided into four sections, describing the movement's objectives in political, social, military and financial fields.[2]

Politically, the Manifesto calls for:

• Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all ages 25 and up;
• Proportional representation on a regional basis;
• Voting for women;
• Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector;
• The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the Senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown);
• The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers.

In labor and social policy, the Manifesto calls for:

• The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
• A minimum wage;
• The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
• To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
• Reorganization of the railways and the public transport sector;
• Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
• Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

In military affairs, the Manifesto advocates:

• Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;
• Armaments factories are to be nationalized;
• A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.

In finance, the Manifesto advocates:

• A strong extraordinary tax on capital of a progressive nature, which takes the form of true partial expropriation of all wealth;
• The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
• Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
• The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

These early positions reflected in the Manifesto would later be characterized by Mussolini in "The Doctrine of Fascism" as "a series of pointers, forecasts, hints which, when freed from the inevitable matrix of contingencies, were to develop in a few years time into a series of doctrinal positions entitling Fascism to rank as a political doctrine differing from all others, past or present."[3]

The Manifesto in practice​

Of the Manifesto's proposals, the commitment to corporative organisation of economic interests was to be the longest lasting. Far from becoming a medium of extended democracy, parliament became by law an exclusively Fascist-picked body in 1929; being replaced by the "chamber of corporations" a decade later.

Fascism's pacifist foreign policy ceased during its first year of Italian government. In September 1923, the Corfu crisis demonstrated the regime's willingness to use force internationally. Perhaps the greatest success of Fascist diplomacy was the Lateran Treaty of February 1929, which accepted the principle of non-interference in the affairs of the Church. This ended the 59-year-old dispute between Italy and the Papacy.

 

[metis]

I never said it was not an insurrection, I said it was not an attempt to overthrow US democracy.

It absolutely was as the evidence is overwhelming, such as Trump's phone call to Georgia's SoS telling him that he needed to find 11,780 votes so he would win. If you paid attention to the testimony to the January 6th Committee, Trump's own appointees said that he would not accept the results and well knew what he was doing on the 6th with the attempt to stop the certification.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What exactly is homophobia?

My definition is an aversion to homosexuals, homosexuality, or both.

So do...
-athiest suffer religiousphobia?
-christians suffer atheistphobia?
-dems suffer repubphobia?
-repubs suffer demphobia?
Etc, etc

My point being if someone doesn't agree with something, why are some labeled as a phobia and some not?

I have no problem with any of that usage. I'm definitely averse to Republican voters and the Republican party, and find the word republican-phobic an apt description. And I'm averse to Abrahamic religion and Christianity in particular. I was in a church this year for a wedding, and it gave me the creeps hearing the pastor conduct the service chuck full of his religious beliefs. It was definitely an aversive experience. So call me Chrstophobic or Abrahamophobic. I would.

I detest hypocrisy and phoniness. At least Republicans admit they side with the financial élites.

You detest hypocrisy and phoniness, so you admire the Republicans? The Republicans are nothing but hypocrisy and deception.

Atheists have a different notion of the truth, than we Christians

Yes, and a different method for deciding "truth." It's the same one that transformed the world and elevated the human condition post-Enlightenment.

Atheists will believe what they want to believe

That's backwards. Critical thinkers will believe what the evidence supports. Faith-based thinkers have no criteria for belief but the will to believe.

If nobody cheated on that day of 2020, fine. But if they did, God knows that and will hold them accountable, when they die. He saw them. The Supreme Judge saw their crimes. Even if they deny them.

Humanists aren't waiting for divine retribution. Those people are going on trial and many to prison.

Trump may be wrong, but he also may be right on the elections steal.

No, he's not, but it doesn't matter whether he was right or wrong, at least not to me. I believe the election was fair, but what if I discovered beyond doubt that the election was stolen. Am I expected to mind or object? It would be antidemocratic in the short term, but it would have saved democracy in the States for the nonce. I don't have the same values or standards for us and them, and the Republicans, like Putin and the Taliban are them.

Does that seem hypocritical? It's analogous to tolerating the tolerant while being intolerant of intolerance. It may sound hypocritical, but to preserve a tolerant society, the intolerant must be disempowered, just as to preserve a democracy, the antidemocratic must be disempowered by any means. To preserve peace, sometimes we must use violence in the short term. That's not hypocritical, either. I don't believe in shooting at people unprovoked, but I do believe in returning fire. Same thing. The standard I'd apply to anybody is that it is wrong to shoot him as long as he is an we (nonviolent), but if he pulled a gun, he becomes a them and the standards change. I'd shoot to kill in self defense.

The reason it was not a false dichotomy, is because you seemed to be making the claim that the reason people got their jobs back after the pandemic is due to the programs Biden introduced. I find that claim to be absurd

How would the world look if Biden had been the stabilizing influence that mitigated economic catastrophe? Just like it does. There would be a before state, and action, and an improved after state. You can say that correlation doesn't prove causation, but calling the conclusion absurd is a great illustration of absurdity (in mathematics, a surd is any irrational number). The claim is irrational (not derived using reason).

I never said it was not an insurrection, I said it was not an attempt to overthrow US democracy.

Same thing in this case. Once again, what about that insurrection causes you to say that it wasn't an attempt to "overthrow US democracy"? What would that have looked like instead? What's missing for you that needed to be there for you to call it that?

You seemed to suggest he was by saying his supporters wanted a dictator which is why they voted for him

I say that. Trump had two supporter demographics - the wealthy who see ordinary Americans as capital like farm animals and machines to exploit, and who support with huge infusions of dirty money, as well as the hapless MAGA crows - the people who find themselves in hopeless, dead-end lives, never able to get ahead and feeling that they have been cheated by whoever the Republicans tell them cheated them - Democrats, immigrants, people of color.

And they aren't looking for or expecting better lives themselves. They just want to hurt others, and for that, they loved this angry, bigoted, strongman and still do. But now they want one who can win.

And that's what most of the Trump supporters did, they moved on.

Yes, they did. Both the big money and the much of the Republican voting public see Trump as nonviable. He's a loser. He lost both houses of Congress and the White House, and soon he will lose his wealth and freedom. Like I just said, they want another guy just like him, but one who can win, "own the libs," and let them "drink liberal tears."

I can name PEOPLE who are fascist but not homophobic.

There must be gay fascists that aren't self-loathing, but so what? Do you see that as a rebuttal to the claim that homophobia is prominent in and in part characterizes fascist movements?

all that is required to be called homophobe is to disagree with homosexuality. BTW what does it mean to disagree with a group of people who exist as they are?

Yes to your first sentence.

Disagree means disapprove in this context. It means, "I'm aversive to homosexuals. I don't approve of them." That's homophobia - a form of bigotry, which I define as an irrational, destructive view of most or all members of a law-abiding class.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I never said it was not an insurrection, I said it was not an attempt to overthrow US democracy.

insurrection​

noun​

in·sur·rec·tion ˌin(t)-sə-ˈrek-shən

Synonyms of insurrection
: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

Definition of INSURRECTION

an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Trump lost. An angry mob carried out an insurrection,. with the goal of stopping the peaceful transfer of power from Trump to the next democratically elected President. In essence, they wanted to install Trump as dictator. Does that sound to you like people who support democracy?

 

[SkepticThinker]

So do...
-athiest suffer religiousphobia?
-christians suffer atheistphobia?
-dems suffer repubphobia?
-repubs suffer demphobia?
Etc, etc

My point being if someone doesn't agree with something, why are some labeled as a phobia and some not?

"A phobia is a persistent, excessive, unrealistic fear of an object, person, animal, activity or situation."

Phobia - Harvard Health

...

www.health.harvard.edu

If it rises to that level, then the answer is yes.

 

[SkepticThinker]

According to science no one is born gay, there is no gay gene.

There’s (Still) No Gay Gene | Harvard Magazine

Genes seem to play a role in determining sexual orientation, but it’s small, uncertain, and complicated.

www.harvardmagazine.com

No ‘gay gene’: Massive study homes in on genetic basis of human sexuality

Nearly half a million genomes reveal five DNA markers associated with sexual behaviour — but none with the power to predict the sexuality of an individual.

www.nature.com

There is no ‘gay gene.’ There is no ‘straight gene.’ Sexuality is just complex, study confirms

A genetics study of nearly half a million people closes the door on a long-standing debate in sexuality.

www-pbs-org.cdn.ampproject.org

There is no heterosexual gene either.

That, of course, doesn't mean that people aren't born with their sexual orientation.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yeah.... There is no gay gene

Nope. And nobody expects there to be. Because it doesn't work like that.


Moreover, the researchers found that sexuality is polygenic — meaning hundreds or even thousands of genes make tiny contributions to the trait. That pattern is similar to other heritable (but complex) characteristics like height or a proclivity toward trying new things. (Things like red/green colorblindness, freckles and dimples can be traced back to single genes).

 

[Kfox]

It absolutely was as the evidence is overwhelming, such as Trump's phone call to Georgia's SoS telling him that he needed to find 11,780 votes so he would win. If you paid attention to the testimony to the January 6th Committee, Trump's own appointees said that he would not accept the results and well knew what he was doing on the 6th with the attempt to stop the certification.

Those were Trumps actions; which had nothing to do with the people who stormed the Capital

 

[Kfox]

insurrection​

noun​

in·sur·rec·tion ˌin(t)-sə-ˈrek-shən

Synonyms of insurrection
: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

Definition of INSURRECTION

an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Trump lost. An angry mob carried out an insurrection,. with the goal of stopping the peaceful transfer of power from Trump to the next democratically elected President. In essence, they wanted to install Trump as dictator. Does that sound to you like people who support democracy?

If there were an attempt to install Trump as dictator they would have secured positions, made demands or something, IOW they would have done more than walk around the halls for a few minutes, then leave peacefully without further incident.