Fascist Mysticism

[Spiderman]

I studied enough of communism and it's slaughter of over 100 million people to be thoroughly sickened by it. I didn't study fascism till recently and am surprised to see how spiritual and religious it is, as opposed to it's secular communist nemesis.

Quotes from Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism:
"The life of a Fascist is serious, austere, and religious...All its manifestations are poised in a world sustained by moral forces and subject to spiritual responsibilities. The Fascist disdains an easy life. The Fascist conception of life is a Religious one in which man is viewed in his immanent relation to a higher law, endowed with an objective will transcending the individual and raising him to conscious membership of a spiritual society. Fascist state is a spiritual force. The Fascist state is an inwardly accepted standard and rule of conduct, a discipline of the whole person...
It permeates the will no less than the intellect. Fascism is not only a law giver but promoter of spiritual life. To achieve this purpose it enforces discipline and uses authority, entering into the soul and ruling with undisputed sway. There is something more sacred and more important, death. A Fascist knows how to die...Rejection of Marxism: Fascism denies the equation well being = happiness which sees in men mere animals, content when they can feed and fatten thus reducing them to a vegetative existence...
The state, as conceived and realized by Fascism is a spiritual and ethical entity for securing the political, juridical, and economic organization of the nation, an organization which in its origin and growth is a manifestation of the spirit. State is not indifferent to religious phenomena in general nor does it maintain an attitude of indifference to Roman Catholicism, the special positive Religion of Italians. The state has a moral code.
The Fascist state sees in Religion one of the deepest of spiritual manifestations and for this reason not only respects Religion but defends and protects it...The Fascist state does not attempt to vainly seek, as does Bolshevism to efface God from the soul of man. Fascism respects the God of ascetics, Saints, and heroes, and also respects God as conceived by the ingenious and primitive heart of the people, the God to whom their prayers are raised.
Fascism sees in the world not only those superficial, material aspects in which man appears as an individual standing by himself self-centered, subject to natural law which instinctively urges him toward a life of selfish momentary pleasure, it sees not only the individual but the nation and the country, individuals and generations bound together by a moral law with common traditions and a mission which suppressing the instinct for life closed in a brief circle of pleasure, builds up a higher life founded on duty, a life free from the limitations of time and space in which the individual by self-sacrifice, the renunciation of self-interest by death itself, can achieve that purely spiritual existence in which his value as a man consists. The conception is therefore a spiritual one arising from the general reaction of the century against the materialistic positivism of the 19th century."
Mussolini - THE DOCTRINE OF FASCISM

Mussolini voiced his disapproval of contraception and thought it would be better if people used self-control. He was against sex outside of marriage and even wanted divorce banned. He closed night clubs, banned pornography and institutions that supported sexual immorality. He went so far as to make swearing in public a crime.

I can't help but see similarities between Mussolini and the God of Scripture who flooded the earth, commanded his people to annihilate enemy cities, and had people executed for offenses as little as picking up sticks on the Sabbath. In fact, Many of Mussolini's policies, laws, and precepts are found in Scripture.

Of course, I condemn Mussolini's antisemitism. The Jews were God's chosen people. God chose Jews to write the Bible, and Jesus chose twelve Jews as Apostles, and the Jews i've met in real life are brilliant, awesome, respectable people, so I'm not in any way promoting antisemitism or Fascist atrocities against leftists, concentration camps, or aggression on other nations.

I am suggesting that Fascist state resembles the Old Testament state of Israel and that Fascism is intrinsically spiritual and Religious, where it's greatest opponent, Communism, is intrinsically secular. If the God of the Bible was to take on human flesh and rule over the world, I believe it would be a fascist state, based on God's intolerant methods in Scripture against his opponents and punishment of sinners. Much of the morality that Mussolini was promoting is promoted in Scripture. Much of what Mussolini condemned as vice, is condemned as "sin" and "vice" in Scripture.

Fascists motivate the people, especially the youth, to unity, patriotism, self-discipline, sacrifice, and asceticism. If Fascists would use their fervor for spirituality, morality, and self-discipline, to declare an inward crusade against hedonism, lust, pride, covetousness, gluttony, selfishness, and laziness, rather than external aggression, Fascism would be good for society.

If Hitler had died before invading Austria and Poland, he would have gone down in History as a hero for taking a poor defeated country out of the rubble of World War 1 and making it great and powerful again.

I'm not in any way defending Fascist treatment of Jews or political opponents, invasion of other nations, institution of forced labor camps, and various other atrocities.

 

[Nakosis]

Sure, the idea in fascism is to unite people under one set of ideas, like monotheism.

Usually includes strict suppression of any opposing idealism. The idea can be religion, race, nationalism etc...

Any unifying cause. A united people is a powerful force.

Question, does communism cause division? Is there something inherent in communist idealism that would cause division?

Edit* I mean the difference? fascism is everyone supports the state. Communism the state supports everyone. In which case everyone is focussing on their own needs?

 

[David T]

1. Damn universe it refuses to do what I want it to. I mean come on. it's totally bogus to have the stars that far apart so I can see them but to travel there takes all kinds of magic to get there.
2. People wtf. I didn't ask for this crap. I wanted to be a tree. I remember distinctly being in the tree line. I thought only idiots appear to be in the people line and guess what management made me human. That's just ****ed up.
3. Nature what the hell? I look outside right now and it's pissing down rain some dumb *** elk are mooching food. I have a dangerous creature holding me hostage in my house!!! I named the elk horny.
So yea pope I am with you totally.

 

[Spiderman]

Sure, the idea in fascism is to unite people under one set of ideas, like monotheism.

Usually includes strict suppression of any opposing idealism. The idea can be religion, race, nationalism etc...

Any unifying cause. A united people is a powerful force.

Question, does communism cause division? Is there something inherent in communist idealism that would cause division?

Edit* I mean the difference? fascism is everyone supports the state. Communism the state supports everyone. In which case everyone is focussing on their own needs?

Communism could work theoretically.... But in practice communism has cost more innocent lives than any form of Government. Sin is also the forgotten word in communism!

 

[Nakosis]

Communism could work theoretically.... But in practice communism has cost more innocent lives than any form of Government. Sin is also the forgotten word in communism!

Capitalism, and democracy, well democracy as the US government as it is set up, assumes everyone is greedy. So it tries to put in place checks and balances so greed can't overwhelm the system.

Communism, I think assumes altruism which is probably more the exception than the rule.

Fascism encourages self-sacrifice, for the good of the nation. Like religion I suppose except that your self-sacrifice is for God. You sacrifice your time, you sacrifice your wealth, in some cases you sacrifice your life and become a martyr. Self sacrifice is praised and becomes a moral standard.

In communism, there is no God, no nationalism to sacrifice for. Still you have to sacrifice because if you get all you want there's not enough to go around. No reward in the afterlife for your sacrifice. Where's the reward? I suspect it is very hard to convince people to accept sacrifice if there is no reward in it for them.

 

[Spiderman]

Ancient Israel was an authoritarian Theocracy, a Fascist state.

 

[Spiderman]

Capitalism, and democracy, well democracy as the US government as it is set up, assumes everyone is greedy. So it tries to put in place checks and balances so greed can't overwhelm the system.

Communism, I think assumes altruism which is probably more the exception than the rule.

Fascism encourages self-sacrifice, for the good of the nation. Like religion I suppose except that your self-sacrifice is for God. You sacrifice your time, you sacrifice your wealth, in some cases you sacrifice your life and become a martyr. Self sacrifice is praised and becomes a moral standard.

In communism, there is no God, no nationalism to sacrifice for. Still you have to sacrifice because if you get all you want there's not enough to go around. No reward in the afterlife for your sacrifice. Where's the reward? I suspect it is very hard to convince people to accept sacrifice if there is no reward in it for them.

The country that most resembles the Soviet Union is north Korea. People are imprisoned and executed for petty offenses and there is no liberty.

Communism was successfully practiced by the Catholic Church long before Marxism among religious communities of monks and nuns where no one owned anything, everything belonged to the community, everyone vowed to obey the superior and took vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

 

[Phantasman]

Yep.
John:
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

People in bondage don't even know that they are in bondage (until they experience being free).

I see (catholic) orthodoxy no different than the Jews of the OT. They tell you what to believe.

 

[Spiderman]

Fascism worked miracles for Germany. If only they never invaded Poland and other nations, Germany would have been the strongest nation in the world. Meaning, they should have built the nation up and not attacked anyone.

 

[Phantasman]

Fascism worked miracles for Germany. If only they never invaded Poland and other nations, Germany would have been the strongest nation in the world. Meaning, they should have built the nation up and not attacked anyone.

Maybe. Germany had nowhere to go after WW1 but up. Hitler was a maniacal genius. But so was Muhammad and Attila the Hun.

 

[Laika]

I studied enough of communism and it's slaughter of over 100 million people to be thoroughly sickened by it. I didn't study fascism till recently and am surprised to see how spiritual and religious it is, as opposed to it's secular communist nemesis.

Its good to see someone actually read "the Doctrine of Fascism". There is a "Debate Fascism" section on Reddit and they have a pretty good reading list if you are interested. You should give Giovanni Gentile a look as Mussolini's Fascist philosopher.

Fascist book / reading list • r/DebateFascism

 

[Laika]

Communism, I think assumes altruism which is probably more the exception than the rule.

It doesn't. Marxism is an economic theory and so does take account of economic self-interest.

In communism, there is no God, no nationalism to sacrifice for. Still you have to sacrifice because if you get all you want there's not enough to go around. No reward in the afterlife for your sacrifice. Where's the reward? I suspect it is very hard to convince people to accept sacrifice if there is no reward in it for them.

If you are building a heaven on earth, you don't need an afterlife. You are making a sacrifice for the benefit of humanity and for future generations and that can at least feel like a "transcendent" ideology that can help you come to term with death and sacrifice. The reward is that you leave a lasting contribution potentially to the benefit of mankind, so your life has some kind of meaning and purpose to make it fulfilling. The death of the individual is then seen in the context of the benefit to humanity as a whole.

(Edit: This is why its so hard for me to walk away from Communism, because its fulfilling to feel like you have a purpose and aren't just an oblivious egotistical consumer buying stuff to pass the time. )

 

[Spiderman]

Despite what people say, Trumps America is not fascist. Putin's Russia has similarities to Mussolini's Italy, but I don't know if I would drop the f-bomb on Russia.

Does anyone think Russia is Fascist? Please do explain

 

[Nakosis]

It doesn't. Marxism is an economic theory and so does take account of economic self-interest.

Sorry, I'll admit I don't know much about Marxism. There seems a dozen or so versions of it. Labor hour value seems really easy to argue against though. Can you explain or provide a reference to how Marxism would work for my own best interest?

If you are building a heaven on earth, you don't need an afterlife. You are making a sacrifice for the benefit of humanity and for future generations and that can at least feel like a "transcendent" ideology that can help you come to term with death and sacrifice. The reward is that you leave a lasting contribution potentially to the benefit of mankind, so your life has some kind of meaning and purpose to make it fulfilling. The death of the individual is then seen in the context of the benefit to humanity as a whole.

(Edit: This is why its so hard for me to walk away from Communism, because its fulfilling to feel like you have a purpose and aren't just an oblivious egotistical consumer buying stuff to pass the time. )

Sounds like a very altruistic position.

 

[Spiderman]

Fascism could work in theory but didn't in practice because of antisemitism and aggression against other nations, neither of which were contained in Fascist Doctrine.

Fascism triumphed in Spain largely because Franco didn't aggress on other nations. After defeating communism, he put a sword on the altar of a church and vowed not to take up the sword again unless Spain was invaded.

That is the attitude Fascists should have had as well as one that isn't racist, and I think Fascism would have benefitted Germany and Italy.

Franco had Jewish friends and I read that he never persecuted Jews. If Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy did what Fascist Spain did, Fascism would have triumphed in those nations, motivated the people and the youth to self-discipline, patriotism, and spiritual principles, and boosted the economy.

 

[Laika]

Sorry, I'll admit I don't know much about Marxism. There seems a dozen or so versions of it.

No worries. There are loads of "sectarian" conflicts between different interpretations of it, so its easy to get lost in the jumble of ideas and conflicting claims.

Labor hour value seems really easy to argue against though.

The Labour Theory of value is basically that human labour power is what gives products their utility or "use-value". In the late 19th century Alfred Marshall developed the "theory of marginal utility" (or bluntly- goods and services get their value based on what consumers want). This had two advantages. The first is that it could look more scientific because it could use mathamatical equations so economics could imitate physics. The second was that it replaced the labour theory of value as a source of Socialists claiming that workers, as producers, should be entitled to the products of their labour, rather than capitalists as owners of the means of production.

The Labour theory of value is significant because is the basis for socialist economics, as if it is simply a question of getting people to work on something that makes it productive, then it does not distinguish between different types of economic system or property relations. The idea that only the private sector is efficient developed much later by insisting the nothing created by the public sector could have value in the market. The labour theory of value would suggest however that workers under public ownership can still create things which are useful and therefore be productive to society.

Can you explain or provide a reference to how Marxism would work for my own best interest?

Originally, Communists argued that a planned economy would be superior to a free market and that it would increase the productivity of labour. This would eventually culminate in a condition of "Post-Scarcity" in which there would be such an abundance of goods and services that want, poverty and hunger would be eliminated. People would be guaranteed a range of social and economic rights, such as free health care and education. Communists eliminated Unemployment (by effectively conscripting people in to their jobs). Some would argue that economic planning means you are better able to deal with long-term problems such as the shift to automation in the workplace or dealing with environmental problems or space exploration.

In reality, it was never quite this easy but they did still achieve record rates of economic growth under public ownership and economic planning, modernised the Russian and eastern european economy and re-built it (twice) in the wake of the first and second world wars. Up until about 1970, rates of economic growth between North and South Korea were comparable, but the north fell behind and since the 1990's North Korea's economy has been in crisis because it was economically dependent on the USSR.

Communism was also supposed to make people freer than under Capitalism. Whatever may be proclaimed in terms of legal rights, without actually owning property and having money, most of the rights we have are not effective. We can vote, but people can "buy" candidates. We have freedom to write or say what ever we want, but only a handful will ever make it to a mass audience by the mass media. A big part of it was also the idea you could clear away "religion" as an obstacle to personal freedom and to scientific research, so no more controversy over stem-cell research or abortion and no more debate over whether Children should be taught evolution or creationism in school.

Its not quite as relevant now, but communists supported women's right to vote, to get a divorce, to have an abortion, to get a job and own property, to take up leadership roles in society and to take public office. At the start of the 20th century this was revolutionary stuff. Moreover, a nation-wide system of childcare could end the burden of bringing up children by making it the responsibility of society, rather than of the individual or the family. The USSR legalised homosexuality, abortion and divorces by a single partner in the 1920's during its "sexual revolution".

In the 1930's things became much more repressive under Stalin, but (contrary to public belief) they supported economic incentives for more productive labour, supported large income inequalities to reward workers and encouraged competition amongst workers to "emulate" best practice. Even then conditions improved for national minority groups based on system of "affirmative action" in which traditional national cultures and languages we allowed to develop rather than be repressed.

Outside the USSR, you had communists campaign for the rights of minority groups, such as African Americans resisting Jim Crowe in the 1930's as the beginning of the civil rights movement when it was still taboo , or resisting Apartheid in South Africa (Nelson Mandela was a Communist for a time), or supporting movements towards national independence in many European colonies, both in Africa and in Vietnam of course.

So there were quite a lot of ways in which Marxism/Communism could have been in your self interest and be attractive if you'd been in the right place at the right time. The problem obviously is the backdrop of repression, human rights abuses and general "totalitarian" carnage. You can't pretend its not there and its very difficult to deal with morally. But for a while, Communists were offering a plausible alternative to achieve a modern industrial society in a short space of time, so it was attractive to many people in the developing world and in intellectual circles in the west during the great depression when it seemed Capitalism was finished. If things get bad enough, it may be put back on the table but because it was a totalitarian dictatorship its something most people are understandably not willing to consider. Its not clear it is a superior system either (in terms of freedom or economic growth), which is what it would need to be in order to be viable in the long run.

 

[Spiderman]

No worries. There are loads of "sectarian" conflicts between different interpretations of it, so its easy to get lost in the jumble of ideas and conflicting claims.



The Labour Theory of value is basically that human labour power is what gives products their utility or "use-value". In the late 19th century Alfred Marshall developed the "theory of marginal utility" (or bluntly- goods and services get their value based on what consumers want). This had two advantages. The first is that it could look more scientific because it could use mathamatical equations so economics could imitate physics. The second was that it replaced the labour theory of value as a source of Socialists claiming that workers, as producers, should be entitled to the products of their labour, rather than capitalists as owners of the means of production.

The Labour theory of value is significant because is the basis for socialist economics, as if it is simply a question of getting people to work on something that makes it productive, then it does not distinguish between different types of economic system or property relations. The idea that only the private sector is efficient developed much later by insisting the nothing created by the public sector could have value in the market. The labour theory of value would suggest however that workers under public ownership can still create things which are useful and therefore be productive to society.



Originally, Communists argued that a planned economy would be superior to a free market and that it would increase the productivity of labour. This would eventually culminate in a condition of "Post-Scarcity" in which there would be such an abundance of goods and services that want, poverty and hunger would be eliminated. People would be guaranteed a range of social and economic rights, such as free health care and education. Communists eliminated Unemployment (by effectively conscripting people in to their jobs). Some would argue that economic planning means you are better able to deal with long-term problems such as the shift to automation in the workplace or dealing with environmental problems or space exploration.

In reality, it was never quite this easy but they did still achieve record rates of economic growth under public ownership and economic planning, modernised the Russian and eastern european economy and re-built it (twice) in the wake of the first and second world wars. Up until about 1970, rates of economic growth between North and South Korea were comparable, but the north fell behind and since the 1990's North Korea's economy has been in crisis because it was economically dependent on the USSR.

Communism was also supposed to make people freer than under Capitalism. Whatever may be proclaimed in terms of legal rights, without actually owning property and having money, most of the rights we have are not effective. We can vote, but people can "buy" candidates. We have freedom to write or say what ever we want, but only a handful will ever make it to a mass audience by the mass media. A big part of it was also the idea you could clear away "religion" as an obstacle to personal freedom and to scientific research, so no more controversy over stem-cell research or abortion and no more debate over whether Children should be taught evolution or creationism in school.

Its not quite as relevant now, but communists supported women's right to vote, to get a divorce, to have an abortion, to get a job and own property, to take up leadership roles in society and to take public office. At the start of the 20th century this was revolutionary stuff. Moreover, a nation-wide system of childcare could end the burden of bringing up children by making it the responsibility of society, rather than of the individual or the family. The USSR legalised homosexuality, abortion and divorces by a single partner in the 1920's during its "sexual revolution".

In the 1930's things became much more repressive under Stalin, but (contrary to public belief) they supported economic incentives for more productive labour, supported large income inequalities to reward workers and encouraged competition amongst workers to "emulate" best practice. Even then conditions improved for national minority groups based on system of "affirmative action" in which traditional national cultures and languages we allowed to develop rather than be repressed.

Outside the USSR, you had communists campaign for the rights of minority groups, such as African Americans resisting Jim Crowe in the 1930's as the beginning of the civil rights movement when it was still taboo , or resisting Apartheid in South Africa (Nelson Mandela was a Communist for a time), or supporting movements towards national independence in many European colonies, both in Africa and in Vietnam of course.

So there were quite a lot of ways in which Marxism/Communism could have been in your self interest and be attractive if you'd been in the right place at the right time. The problem obviously is the backdrop of repression, human rights abuses and general "totalitarian" carnage. You can't pretend its not there and its very difficult to deal with morally. But for a while, Communists were offering a plausible alternative to achieve a modern industrial society in a short space of time, so it was attractive to many people in the developing world and in intellectual circles in the west during the great depression when it seemed Capitalism was finished. If things get bad enough, it may be put back on the table but because it was a totalitarian dictatorship its something most people are understandably not willing to consider. Its not clear it is a superior system either (in terms of freedom or economic growth), which is what it would need to be in order to be viable in the long run.

As much as I despise communism, I had to rate that post winner. Very thoughtful, thorough, and informative , comrade.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Fascism could work in theory but didn't in practice because of antisemitism and aggression against other nations, neither of which were contained in Fascist Doctrine.

Fascism triumphed in Spain largely because Franco didn't aggress on other nations. After defeating communism, he put a sword on the altar of a church and vowed not to take up the sword again unless Spain was invaded.

That is the attitude Fascists should have had as well as one that isn't racist, and I think Fascism would have benefitted Germany and Italy.

Franco had Jewish friends and I read that he never persecuted Jews. If Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy did what Fascist Spain did, Fascism would have triumphed in those nations, motivated the people and the youth to self-discipline, patriotism, and spiritual principles, and boosted the economy.

Will you please stop glorifying Franco as if he was anything other than a murdering tyrant: White Terror (Spain) - Wikipedia

Fascism is a violent and hateful ideology that seeks to purge society of what it sees as opposed to itself. It's actually a cult of violence. You'd be killed, for sure.

 

[Laika]

As much as I despise communism, I had to rate that post winner. Very thoughtful, thorough, and informative , comrade.

you're welcome PopeADope.

Fascism and Communism are very different as ideologies, but they appeal to the same vulnerabilities of feeling powerless, alone and finding a way to give life a sense of purpose and significance. If you are looking in to fascism more, my advice is keep your eyes open and watch your back. As with Communism, things as never what they seem and its easy to get lost because it feels good even when its doing something wrong. Stay Safe.

 

[Spiderman]

Will you please stop glorifying Franco as if he was anything other than a murdering tyrant: White Terror (Spain) - Wikipedia

Fascism is a violent and hateful ideology that seeks to purge society of what it sees as opposed to itself. It's actually a cult of violence. You'd be killed, for sure.

I see Franco's Government as the lesser of two evils at that time.

I feel Fascism could work if the people were united behind a ruler who was anointed and enlightened to truly know what is best for the nation.

What Fascists have done is truly evil and barbaric, but I don't see the Doctrine of Fascism as evil.

Yes, if I was in Nazi Germany, they would put me out of my misery . Hitler thought the mentally ill should be euthanized!