Fellow atheists... Where does the Human Mind come from?

[Emp-Naval]

The question is best stated as: If the mind doesn't stem from the brain, where does it come from?

Here I will base my aegument on the belief that if the mind actually do stem from the brain, then it is deterministic... Extremely complex, but non the leas systematic and predictable given enough information. Which is a fair assumption to me.

Now to the argument:
Assume the human mind to be deterministic.
Then, in theory, a machine capable of predicting every future event, whether human or natural, given pre-conditions, can exist.

Given enough pre-conditions, this machine has a 100% certainity rate.

Now assume a test subject named Bob. Bob is isolated from the outside world, i.e. he is unaffected by any outside uncontrolled event.

We gather every information there is about Bob, complete map of information about every last atom in his body and surroundong test invironment at a goven moment and feed them into the machine.

Bob, being an your avarage human being, is under the illusion that he has free well, which is negated by our assumption that his mind is deterministic by nature.

Our machine is capable of predicting Bob's future actions with perfect precision.

Now Bob is introduced to the machine so he can read its predictions. Being under the illusion of free well, Bob will try to change his actions so he can prove he has it, and the machine is wrong. The machine already has calculated that Bob will do that, since it has all the information needed to make a 100% certain prediction... Hence infinite regression is created.

Therefor, the human mind is indeterministic by nature, and since it is indeterministic, then it doesn't stem from the brain "solely"... So where does it come from?

No souls or spirits please, because that will drift the thread way off into a completely different subject...

 

[Gjallarhorn]

The question is best stated as: If the mind doesn't stem from the brain, where does it come from?

Here I will base my aegument on the belief that if the mind actually do stem from the brain, then it is deterministic... Extremely complex, but non the leas systematic and predictable given enough information. Which is a fair assumption to me.

Now to the argument:
Assume the human mind to be deterministic.
Then, in theory, a machine capable of predicting every future event, whether human or natural, given pre-conditions, can exist.

Given enough pre-conditions, this machine has a 100% certainity rate.

Now assume a test subject named Bob. Bob is isolated from the outside world, i.e. he is unaffected by any outside uncontrolled event.

We gather every information there is about Bob, complete map of information about every last atom in his body and surroundong test invironment at a goven moment and feed them into the machine.

Bob, being an your avarage human being, is under the illusion that he has free well, which is negated by our assumption that his mind is deterministic by nature.

Our machine is capable of predicting Bob's future actions with perfect precision.

Now Bob is introduced to the machine so he can read its predictions. Being under the illusion of free well, Bob will try to change his actions so he can prove he has it, and the machine is wrong. The machine already has calculated that Bob will do that, since it has all the information needed to make a 100% certain prediction... Hence infinite regression is created.

Therefor, the human mind is indeterministic by nature, and since it is indeterministic, then it doesn't stem from the brain "solely"... So where does it come from?

No souls or spirits please, because that will drift the thread way off into a completely different subject...

Bolded statement is unfounded, as you said the computer can accurately read him regardless of his flip-flopping

 

[Emp-Naval]

Bolded statement is unfounded, as you said the computer can accurately read him regardless of his flip-flopping

You missed the point my friend.
Bob can see the predictions on the screen.

The machine will make it's prediction based on what it has calculated, but Bob can see the result, but the machine already knows that he sees the result, so it includes that into the equasion, but then agian Bob can still see the result...

In other words:
The machine knows that he knows that it knows that he knows that it knows that he knows... Infinitely... Hence infinite regression.

 

[outhouse]

If the mind doesn't stem from the brain,
.

Oh please jump through my imaginary hoops.

 

[Emp-Naval]

Oh please jump through my imaginary hoops.

So typical. Have you eve read anything I wrote? >.>

 

[outhouse]

So typical. Have you eve read anything I wrote? >.>

"Assume"

 

[Sunstone]

The OP does not make a case that an infinite amount of second-guessing amounts to an "indeterminate mind", in my opinion. At any one point during that second-guessing, the "mind" would be determined.

Bob guesses "Yes".

Bob sees the computer has guessed that he will guess "Yes", so Bob guesses "No".

And so forth....

How does any of that demonstrate that Bob's mind is indeterminate? In the above brief example, it's been "determined" at least twice.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

You missed the point my friend.
Bob can see the predictions on the screen.

The machine will make it's prediction based on what it has calculated, but Bob can see the result, but the machine already knows that he sees the result, so it includes that into the equasion, but then agian Bob can still see the result...

In other words:
The machine knows that he knows that it knows that he knows that it knows that he knows... Infinitely... Hence infinite regression.

How is that invalidating determinism? Let's change the story slightly: Bob is asked to push one of two buttons. He knows the machine will calculate which button he presses. But he must actually push a button, and when he does, the machine will reveal the answer it calculated ten seconds earlier.

Of course a determined system will reevaluate its answer based on incoming stimuli. Your argument is stating that humans can change their minds based on what they experience and a machine can do so as well. If anything you've shown just how impotent deterministic systems can be.

 

[Thana]

I know that some Parapsychologists believe that the 'mind' is seperate from the brain. That the brain is the receiver, In a sense, Of the mind. But what is the mind? How does it work? Where is it?

No idea. I haven't really researched much into what they theorize

 

[Skwim]

The question is best stated as: If the mind doesn't stem from the brain, where does it come from?

Here I will base my aegument on the belief that if the mind actually do stem from the brain, then it is deterministic... Extremely complex, but non the leas systematic and predictable given enough information. Which is a fair assumption to me.

Now to the argument:
Assume the human mind to be deterministic.
Then, in theory, a machine capable of predicting every future event, whether human or natural, given pre-conditions, can exist.

Why? "Can" implies a true possibility, which I fail to see. Just because all the information need to predict X exists doesn't mean it's a possibe to do so.

Given enough pre-conditions, this machine has a 100% certainity rate.

Which assumes such a machine could exist, something not yet shown to be true.

Now assume a test subject named Bob. Bob is isolated from the outside world, i.e. he is unaffected by any outside uncontrolled event.

We gather every information there is about Bob, complete map of information about every last atom in his body and surroundong test invironment at a goven moment and feed them into the machine.

Bob, being an your avarage human being, is under the illusion that he has free well, which is negated by our assumption that his mind is deterministic by nature.

Actually his illusion would still exist. Why would our assumption bear on it?

Now Bob is introduced to the machine so he can read its predictions. Being under the illusion of free well, Bob will try to change his actions so he can prove he has it, and the machine is wrong. The machine already has calculated that Bob will do that, since it has all the information needed to make a 100% certain prediction... Hence infinite regression is created.

Therefor, the human mind is indeterministic by nature,

Sorry, but I fail to see how you arrived at this conclusion. Why should the mind be "indeterministic"--possessing freewill I assume---just because this machine of yours "knows" what Bob will do?

 

[Emp-Naval]

Oh please jump through my imaginary hoops.

So typical. Have you eve read anything I wrote? >.>

 

[outhouse]

So typical. Have you eve read anything I wrote? >.>

"assume"

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Anybody can do this to disprove the OP:

Replace the human with a machine that reads the output and renders the opposite reaction.

Ergo, computers are indeterministic.

 

[Godobeyer]

the mind is favor from God , that's what make us different (superior) than the other creation , I guess the Jinny also had mind .

 

[Emp-Naval]

Anybody can do this to disprove the OP:

Replace the human with a machine that reads the output and renders the opposite reaction.

Ergo, computers are indeterministic.

Don't get me wrong, I hate this argument... But as I was thinking about it I just couldn't find something to rebut it... The computer vs. computer is cool though...
So just because this particular situation seems to repeat itself infinitely -illogical?-, it doesn't disprove anything, right?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

the mind is favor from God , that's what make us different (superior) than the other creation , I guess the Jinny also had mind .

You're an atheist now? Welcome brother.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Don't get me wrong, I hate this argument... But as I was thinking about it I just couldn't find something to rebut it... The computer vs. computer is cool though...
So just because this particular situation seems to repeat itself infinitely -illogical?-, it doesn't disprove anything, right?

At the very least it doesn't achieve the conclusion you have given it. Both systems are deterministic, both are frying themselves trying to one-up the other til the end of time.

It also has very little to do with the nature of the mind, beyond reference of a deterministic system.

 

[Godobeyer]

You're an atheist now? Welcome brother.

Awwww!!!! No ,I am still Muslim brother

 

[Emp-Naval]

the mind is favor from God , that's what make us different (superior) than the other creation , I guess the Jinny also had mind .

Oh perfect a muslim >.>
Anyway, so you think that your Allah gave humans minds and left other animals... I don't think so.

First what is a mind? Is it cognitive abilities? If so then some species with advanced brains are self aware, and posess a certain degree of cognition.

And Jennis... I mean c'mon, you can't believe that unless you are 3 years old >.>
For people who know nothing about Islamic mythology, Jennis are a race of invisible, shape shifting, manipulative super strong, hediously shaped creatures made out of fire. They are the only non-human species who have free well.

 

[Godobeyer]

Oh perfect a muslim >.>
Anyway, so you think that your Allah gave humans minds and left other animals... I don't think so.

First what is a mind? Is it cognitive abilities? If so then some species with advanced brains are self aware, and posess a certain degree of cognition.

I Know there is some species had advanced brains , but certians did not reach the level of human in all the cases .

And Jennis... I mean c'mon, you can't believe that unless you are 3 years old >.>
For people who know nothing about Islamic mythology, Jennis are a race of invisible, shape shifting, manipulative super strong, hediously shaped creatures made out of fire. They are the only non-human species who have free well.

thanks for your explain