Feminism and objectification

[Estro Felino]

Someone linked this video, which is interesting, from a sociological point of view.
Please, it's a short video: watch it first, to understand the point of the thread.

Honestly I do understand her point, and the premise is good: women are not objects. They are thinking subjects, and they are as smart as men, or maybe even more.

So I really don't understand why she fears that women are treated like objects.
It's like she said that women are weaker than men, or that they are less than men, so they are easily victimized by men.
But how can men's gaze or attention harm someone?

I mean...this kind of political discourse trivializes feminism, which is more about much more serious issues:
1) gender pay gap
2) maternity leaves
3) free oral contraceptives
4) free abortion

I don't understand why there must be this trivialization of feminism, by bringing up men's lust over women.

 

[Ebionite]

I don't understand why there must be this trivialization of feminism, by bringing up men's lust over women.

Her argument was that objectification can lead to women's value of themselves being determined by their appearance rather than by their intangible qualities. IMO the reason that this is more of an issue today is because men's response to the visual appeal of women is a survival trait, and the western world is now operating in survival mode.

 

[Tamino]

So I really don't understand why she fears that women are treated like objects.
It's like she said that women are weaker than men, or that they are less than men, so they are easily victimized by men.
But how can men's gaze or attention harm someone?

She said it herself, didn't she?
It's a cumulative effect of constantly being reduced to your body and sexual desirability.
It's not about sex in general, it's not about one single gaze or a bit of attention or flirting here or there
It's about a basic mechanism that seems harmless in a single instance, but becomes harmful if it happens too often and in a too extreme form. And it's a slippery slope...
Getting a catcall that one evening when I put on high heels and make up for a party? Might be flattering, definitely harmless. Getting catcalls and being accosted each time I leave the house? Pure horror.

Or this one: people telling me sometimes that I'm attractive? Feels good.
People telling me that I'm attractive and should not waste my time with pointless scholarly pursuits because I can still catch myself a rich guy? Feels demeaning.

I don't understand why there must be this trivialization of feminism, by bringing up men's lust over women.

Reducing women to objects of sex and reproduction is one of the oldest and most harmful mechanisms of patriarchy. This is not a trivialization, it's one of the very fundamental points of the women's liberation movement.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I don't understand why there must be this trivialization of feminism, by bringing up men's lust over women.

Probably for the same reason you don't understand why politicizing this issue trivializes the problem.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I mean...this kind of political discourse trivializes feminism, which is more about ...

^ mansplaining

 

[Ebionite]

Reducing women to objects of sex and reproduction is one of the oldest and most harmful mechanisms of patriarchy. This is not a trivialization, it's one of the very fundamental points of the women's liberation movement

It's better than the alternative - species extinction. Liberation that disregards pre-existent law leads to the absurdities of woke culture.

 

[Estro Felino]

She said it herself, didn't she?
It's a cumulative effect of constantly being reduced to your body and sexual desirability.

Why should a woman care?
I believe some women are the staunchest priestesses of Patriarchy.
They are obsessed with what men think.
By doing that, they make men important. They enable Patriarchy.
I couldn't care less what men think of me, or of other women.

It's not about sex in general, it's not about one single gaze or a bit of attention or flirting here or there
It's about a basic mechanism that seems harmless in a single instance, but becomes harmful if it happens too often and in a too extreme form. And it's a slippery slope...
Getting a catcall that one evening when I put on high heels and make up for a party? Might be flattering, definitely harmless. Getting catcalls and being accosted each time I leave the house? Pure horror.

Yes, I agree. Horrific.
But few men do that.
An entire male category shall be crucified for the behavior of two or three males?

Besides there are women (like me) who adore being catcalled.

Reducing women to objects of sex and reproduction is one of the oldest and most harmful mechanisms of patriarchy. This is not a trivialization, it's one of the very fundamental points of the women's liberation movement.

This is a TV host in a channel about soccer mostly, called SportItalia.
Tell me: why do you think this TV host wears this attire?

A) Because men ordered her to wear it.
B) Because she chose that dress especially. And she wants to feel sexy in front of the camera
C) Because she feels comfortable wearing it.
D) Because she wants to seduce the male audience.

Answer.

 

[Estro Felino]

^ mansplaining

I had to google the term.
It is one of the most useless terms I have ever heard.
Besides...I am a heterosexual woman.

So it has nothing to do with me.

 

[Estro Felino]

Probably for the same reason you don't understand why politicizing this issue trivializes the problem.

I don't politicize men's lust over women.

Americans do.
It seems to me that this entire year will be about a certain rightist politician lusting for women...

 

[Stevicus]

Someone linked this video, which is interesting, from a sociological point of view.
Please, it's a short video: watch it first, to understand the point of the thread.

Honestly I do understand her point, and the premise is good: women are not objects. They are thinking subjects, and they are as smart as men, or maybe even more.

So I really don't understand why she fears that women are treated like objects.
It's like she said that women are weaker than men, or that they are less than men, so they are easily victimized by men.
But how can men's gaze or attention harm someone?

I mean...this kind of political discourse trivializes feminism, which is more about much more serious issues:
1) gender pay gap
2) maternity leaves
3) free oral contraceptives
4) free abortion

I don't understand why there must be this trivialization of feminism, by bringing up men's lust over women.

I couldn't really find anything in the video I disagreed with. Just out of curiosity, I checked and found that this video was posted to YouTube 11 years ago. Not that it matters greatly, although the complaints outlined in this video are similar to complaints women were making about objectification 40-50 years ago. Maybe some of us men still haven't gotten the message after all these years.

The issue of objectification is not because men have sexual desire or lust over women. Some of it is more related to commerce and the axiom that "sex sells." Every so often, I see internet ads for solar panels featuring a picture of an attractive model which has absolutely nothing to do with the product they're selling. This is a common tactic in advertising to sell anything from shaving cream to automobiles.

I don't know if there's any actual solution here, as it's apparently been an ongoing problem for decades.

 

[Tamino]

Why should a woman care?

Because we are social beings. Our position and role in der he social group matter to us.

I believe some women are the staunchest priestesses of Patriarchy.

True.

They are obsessed with what men think.
By doing that, they make men important. They enable Patriarchy.

Yes. Of course. When such a power imbalance becomes embedded in a culture, its victims will often defend and perpetuate it.

But few men do that.
An entire male category shall be crucified for the behavior of two or three males?

Crucified how? Criticized for flirting with women on the street?

Besides there are women (like me) who adore being catcalled.

That's good for you. But how do the men know that?
If you want to let a stranger know that you think they are sexually attractive you should always do that with a certain sensitivity to the circumstances and verify if your interest is appreciated.

This is a TV host in a channel about soccer mostly, called SportItalia.
Tell me: why do you think this TV host wears this attire?

Well, obviously I have no idea because I don't know her. But I can take a wild guess if you insist

A) Because men ordered her to wear it.

More like: the production team of the show has a certain concept and will encourage the host to dress accordingly

B) Because she chose that dress especially. And she wants to feel sexy in front of the camera

Probably yes. (And there's nothing wrong with feeling beautiful and liking it if your body is admired. Objectification starts when you're reduced to only this aspect)

C) Because she feels comfortable wearing it.

I wouldn't, but I obviously don't know how that woman feels about it

D) Because she wants to seduce the male audience.

I doubt that she is looking for that many sexual partners.

 

[Estro Felino]

Because we are social beings. Our position and role in der he social group matter to us.

We can't change men.
Either we adapt themselves to them, or we simply find a compromise with them.

True.

Thanks.

Yes. Of course. When such a power imbalance becomes embedded in a culture, its victims will often defend and perpetuate it.


Crucified how? Criticized for flirting with women on the street?

No, I didn't mean that. I meant that if some man is a catcaller, the victim of catcalling is willing to shout: "all men are verbal harassers and catcallers".

That's good for you. But how do the men know that?
If you want to let a stranger know that you think they are sexually attractive you should always do that with a certain sensitivity to the circumstances and verify if your interest is appreciated.

Surely. But catcallers here never cross the line, I can promise you that.

Well, obviously I have no idea because I don't know her. But I can take a wild guess if you insist
More like: the production team of the show has a certain concept and will encourage the host to dress accordingly

I don't think so...
Also because there was a show whose producer was a woman.
And a TV host was wearing a much more revealing dress.
That's the standard attire of female TV hosts here...

Probably yes. (And there's nothing wrong with feeling beautiful and liking it if your body is admired. Objectification starts when you're reduced to only this aspect)

If she likes being objectified by men, there's nothing wrong with that.
Also because she has the power.
Over men.
Men are forced to wear a suit on TV shows...so they are not free.
Women are free to wear whatever they like on TV shows, as you can see. Even newscasters can. So they are much freer than men.