Fetal Consciousness

[sayak83]

In your opinion, why is it “not so wrong” to kill a cockroach but it is wrong to kill a 1yo baby? What relevant difference is there.

I would argue that humans have an intrinsic value that insects lack and and therefore a humans fetuses also has an intrinsic value that insects lack

See my other reply to you.

 

[BrightShadow]

What quality does a fetus possess that makes it have rights and not our poor little roach?

Once again.
A cockroach or a bacteria has survival instinct. Should insecticides and antibacterial sprays be made illegal then?

I am not sure why you would you compare a human blastocyst with a cockroach. It is a brutal comparison!
However if you must compare then why not compare a human mother to a cockroach mother? Why not compare maternal instincts and reproductive behavior between human mother and a cockroach mother? Why are you asking us to care for offspring's of a cockroach?

A cockroach mother sometimes carries its ootheca (egg case/capsule containing 16-50 eggs) for days until it finds a suitable and safe place to stick it. Obviously they take every measure for it to hatch. A pregnant cockroach looks for a warm, moist, tight and safe place that is close to food supply and they are very concerned about their babies. Mother cockroach is found to be very concern about its bloodline and continuation of its species.
Maybe there is something to learn from a cockroach mother! A human mother should research what precautions a cockroach mother takes to protect its egg capsule and thus its future babies. Maybe there would be less abortions then!

 

[BrightShadow]

a bunch of cells are not a whole human. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

At the blastocyst stage when it burrows into the uterine wall of the host - it shows signs of survival instincts. It has all the distinctive characteristics of an individual member of human species. Even at Zygote stage (pre-implantation) it is already determined the sex of the future baby! How could anyone purposely deny it from growing?
Even at the early stages when it is attached to the host like a leech like entity - it should be treated as a future human. It is not just a bunch of cells at that stage!
This is why I would safely say a potential human mother has six days to decide her course of action - after six days when the blastocyst attaches itself to the uterine lining - it is the duty of the host to facilitate with the pregnancy. IMO

you are projecting emotions and beliefs onto a group of cells that someone calls an egg.

while ignoring the fact of a fully developed human being.

Ignoring what fact of a fully developed human being?


How she became pregnant and her consequential situation is a separate issue - just like how an illegal alien arrives at USA is a separate issue - but once here - he/she has to abide by the local laws. It doesn't matter if someone kidnapped or tricked him to come to USA - once here - he cannot demand to have multiple spouses (polygamy) just because his country allows it. Similarly how a person arrives to be pregnant is an unrelated issue - it has nothing to do with her responsibilities as a pregnant person.
An individual's act (once pregnant) should be in accordance with her religious teachings or local laws. Most major religion advocates against abortion. If we believe in a creator then we have to abide by his directives. Laws are made in a generalization fashion. You cannot have separate law for every situation. For example: regardless of how responsible a 20 year is - he/she cannot buy and consume alcohol. But a 21 year old irresponsible person is allowed to buy and consume alcohol. Similarly there will be some cases where it might seem that the mother should be allowed to abort but God's directive is for the greater good IMO. I am sure when someone's personal health is at jeopardy or when someone is raped - God will make exceptions on the Judgement day. But if someone is just promiscuous or careless while her economical situation is questionable - then God's ruling could be different for that individual. IMO
Now if she doesn't believe in God or any religion - then I believe it is still the society's (those of us who believe) job to make her know (in a rational way) of the consequences of her decision if she decides to abort!

 

[Fool]

At the blastocyst stage when it burrows into the uterine wall of the host - it shows signs of survival instincts. It has all the distinctive characteristics of an individual member of human species. Even at Zygote stage (pre-implantation) it is already determined the sex of the future baby! How could anyone purposely deny it from growing?
Even at the early stages when it is attached to the host like a leech like entity - it should be treated as a future human. It is not just a bunch of cells at that stage!
This is why I would safely say a potential human mother has six days to decide her course of action - after six days when the blastocyst attaches itself to the uterine lining - it is the duty of the host to facilitate with the pregnancy. IMO




Ignoring what fact of a fully developed human being?


How she became pregnant and her consequential situation is a separate issue - just like how an illegal alien arrives at USA is a separate issue - but once here - he/she has to abide by the local laws. It doesn't matter if someone kidnapped or tricked him to come to USA - once here - he cannot demand to have multiple spouses (polygamy) just because his country allows it. Similarly how a person arrives to be pregnant is an unrelated issue - it has nothing to do with her responsibilities as a pregnant person.
An individual's act (once pregnant) should be in accordance with her religious teachings or local laws. Most major religion advocates against abortion. If we believe in a creator then we have to abide by his directives. Laws are made in a generalization fashion. You cannot have separate law for every situation. For example: regardless of how responsible a 20 year is - he/she cannot buy and consume alcohol. But a 21 year old irresponsible person is allowed to buy and consume alcohol. Similarly there will be some cases where it might seem that the mother should be allowed to abort but God's directive is for the greater good IMO. I am sure when someone's personal health is at jeopardy or when someone is raped - God will make exceptions on the Judgement day. But if someone is just promiscuous or careless while her economical situation is questionable - then God's ruling could be different for that individual. IMO
Now if she doesn't believe in God or any religion - then I believe it is still the society's (those of us who believe) job to make her know (in a rational way) of the consequences of her decision if she decides to abort!

Cells trying to survive is an argument for criminalizing abortions?

Wow that's dreamy.

There were no laws against abortion until a bunch of Caucasian males in the late 1800s, decided to criminalize it. Women didn't have the right to vote then.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Lack of brain structures that can host consciousness.

So what? He's still a human being, and will develop a functioning brain...if you don't kill him.

 

[leroy]

actual humans, individuals, aren't linked to another for all their vital needs.

Hospitals are full of humans connected to machines to meet all their needs but they are still human / if a crazy scientists connects you to another body for some crazy experiment you would still be a human . even the intestine worms that live in your body are considered independent organisms

You are just being arbitrary an inventing ridiculous excuses to dehumanize the fetus. There is nothing special about “being disconnected” that magically transforms you in to a human

Prolifers serve no other purpose than to stir in some one else's personal business with their beliefs. Jesus called such people hypocrites

However even if I am a hypocrite that has no bearing on weather if the fetus is a human or not

 

[leroy]

what an ego.

The ideal is that a person has autonomy. You're interfering in freewill of an actual conscious person, individual.

You believe you have the right to override another humans circumstances for your silly beliefs.

Íll ask you this

Are you 100% sure that the fetus is not a human ? do you have any conclusive and irrefutable evidence to show beyond reasonable doubt that the fetus is not a human ?

 

[Fool]

Hospitals are full of humans connected to machines to meet all their needs but they are still human / if a crazy scientists connects you to another body for some crazy experiment you would still be a human . even the intestine worms that live in your body are considered independent organisms

You are just being arbitrary an inventing ridiculous excuses to dehumanize the fetus. There is nothing special about “being disconnected” that magically transforms you in to a human



However even if I am a hypocrite that has no bearing on weather if the fetus is a human or not

no, i'm not. in the late 1800s a group of caucasian men decided women should have children; whether they wanted them to or not. at that time women couldn't vote.

never in the history of the usa, or any state, has a fetus been recognized as a viable human being. human beings can have living wills. they aren't enrolled on a census for a reason.


so you're going with the idea of parasites eh?

 

[Fool]

Íll ask you this

Are you 100% sure that the fetus is not a human ? do you have any conclusive and irrefutable evidence to show beyond reasonable doubt that the fetus is not a human ?

yes, a human has a birthday that is recognized by all members of the family. we don't celebrate conception days. some people celebrate the fact they are pregnant but those folks want their future infant.


a fetus doesn't even look remotely human for months.

 

[leroy]

Lack of brain structures that can host consciousness.
Same reason as that of a bug

Well 2 things

1 a 25 weeks fetus old fetus has the same “brain structure” than a baby that was borned premature at 25 weeks………..so under your view ether both are human (and person) or non of them is ………. Which one is it?

2 an adult has more “brain structure” than a 1yo baby, so by your logic an adult has more value than a 1yo (which would be absurd)

The point is that by claiming that “brain structure” determines humanity you would have to conclude a bunch of absurdities.

 

[leroy]

no, i'm not. in the late 1800s a group of caucasian men decided women should have children; whether they wanted them to or not. at that time women couldn't vote.[E]

Again, the feminist tone of your comments show that you have been brain washed. This has nothing to do with crazy conspiracies against woman.

so you're going with the idea of parasites eh?

The point that i made with parasites is that parasites are considered independent organisms despite being depended and/or connected to your body. Implying that “being connected” doesn’t magically transforms one in another organism

So ether agree or refute this point

 

[leroy]

yes, a human has a birthday that is recognized by all members of the family. we don't celebrate conception days. some people celebrate the fact they are pregnant but those folks want their future infant.


a fetus doesn't even look remotely human for months.

That doesn’t sound like conclusive and irrefutable evidence.

Are you going to present a serious argument that shows beyond reasonable doubt that a fetus is not a human?

 

[Fool]

Again, the feminist tone of your comments show that you have been brain washed. This has nothing to do with crazy conspiracies against woman.

this isn't a conspiracy theory. this is historical fact.

those who don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it.

The point that i made with parasites is that parasites are considered independent organisms despite being depended and/or connected to your body. Implying that “being connected” doesn’t magically transforms one in another organism

So ether agree or refute this point

so you have a person with worms. that is life. you want to keep the worms alive? you want the person to carry the worms to viability?


inane. psychopaths and sociopaths enjoy controlling, enslaving people.

 

[leroy]

i

so you have a person with worms. that is life. you want to keep the worms alive? you want the person to carry the worms to viability?


.

i´ll repeat
The point that i made with parasites is that parasites are considered independent organisms despite being depended and/or connected to your body. Implying that “being connected” doesn’t magically transforms one in another organism

So ether agree or refute this point

As you can see nobody is suggesting that you most keep the worms alive, you are simply ignoring my point and refuting a straw man.

The point is that a worm is a Worm regardless if its conceded/dependent on your body or not in the same way a human is a human regardless if it´s connected or dependent on someone else

Being disconnected doesn’t magically transforms something in to an independent organism

But anyway exactly what is your view

1 a fetus is part of the woman’s body (like a tumor)

2 a fetus is an independent organism but has no value (like a parasite)

3 the fetus is a human like you and I but abortion is justified anyway

4 some other option (please explain)

 

[Fool]

i


i´ll repeat
The point that i made with parasites is that parasites are considered independent organisms despite being depended and/or connected to your body. Implying that “being connected” doesn’t magically transforms one in another organism

So ether agree or refute this point

As you can see nobody is suggesting that you most keep the worms alive, you are simply ignoring my point and refuting a straw man.

The point is that a worm is a Worm regardless if its conceded/dependent on your body or not in the same way a human is a human regardless if it´s connected or dependent on someone else

Being disconnected doesn’t magically transforms something in to an independent organism

But anyway exactly what is your view

1 a fetus is part of the woman’s body (like a tumor)

2 a fetus is an independent organism but has no value (like a parasite)

3 the fetus is a human like you and I but abortion is justified anyway

4 some other option (please explain)

The consciousness is not a material body.

It can't occur until at a minimal of 24-25 weeks. The brain isn't developed enough and at that stage isn't necessarily still able to be aware of outside stimuli.

 

[BrightShadow]

Cells trying to survive is an argument for criminalizing abortions?

I already explained to you that - at blastocyst stage after it burrows into the uterine wall (plantation) - it is much more than just a bunch of cells in every shape and form!
At what point do you think it is not a bunch of cells?
It seems to me - by trying to convince yourself that it is just a bunch of cells - you are trying to underplay its value. But it reality when the blastocyst attaches itself to the uterine lining - It is more like a leech like entity with all genetic map already drawn, if allowed it is already on its path to maturity. Everything is set in motion until the host decides to terminate by force or if the host is too toxic for it to continue holding on.

There were no laws against abortion until a bunch of Caucasian males in the late 1800s, decided to criminalize it. Women didn't have the right to vote then.

At some point or other - there were no laws against many things. We have come a long way.
Religious teachings has been against abortion since a very long time. Laws of the land came into play and progressed as society got much more enlightened in its views on different issues such as abortion, slavery, suicides, date rape etc. There was a time a farmer could bury his daughter if he wanted a son who could help him with his chores and nothing happened to him (those were the dark ages) but then came the prophets (mostly if not all men) and they tried and abolished that practice. So, it is unwise to say some men are against women and men made a ruling etc.
If you believe in a God then you have to seek and find his directives. If his directive is against abortion then you have to abide by it. Of course every situation can be different and God has the prerogative to forgive anyone. IMO
In my opinion - just because we have free will doesn't mean we are free to do what we want. There are guidelines! There is a path to follow. Rape victim's represent extenuate circumstances IMO but if you only going to look at their position then you will never understand that God's directive is for the greater good. As I already mentioned in my last post - guidelines are provided in a generalized fashion - since you can't make rules for each circumstance separately. IMO

 

[leroy]

The consciousness is not a material body.

It can't occur until at a minimal of 24-25 weeks. The brain isn't developed enough and at that stage isn't necessarily still able to be aware of outside stimuli.

Originally you saidd that the fetus is not a human because its conected and dependent to the mother's body

Now you are saying or implying that it is not a human because it doesn't have consciousness

So which one is it ?


Besides you ignored my question

But anyway exactly what is your view

1 a fetus is part of the woman’s body (like a tumor)

2 a fetus is an independent organism but has no value (like a parasite)

3 the fetus is a human like you and I but abortion is justified anyway

4 some other option (please explain)

 

[Fool]

I already explained to you that - at blastocyst stage after it burrows into the uterine wall (plantation) - it is much more than just a bunch of cells in every shape and form!
At what point do you think it is not a bunch of cells?
It seems to me - by trying to convince yourself that it is just a bunch of cells - you are trying to underplay its value. But it reality when the blastocyst attaches itself to the uterine lining - It is more like a leech like entity with all genetic map already drawn, if allowed it is already on its path to maturity. Everything is set in motion until the host decides to terminate by force or if the host is too toxic for it to continue holding on.




At some point or other - there were no laws against many things. We have come a long way.
Religious teachings has been against abortion since a very long time. Laws of the land came into play and progressed as society got much more enlightened in its views on different issues such as abortion, slavery, suicides, date rape etc. There was a time a farmer could bury his daughter if he wanted a son who could help him with his chores and nothing happened to him (those were the dark ages) but then came the prophets (mostly if not all men) and they tried and abolished that practice. So, it is unwise to say some men are against women and men made a ruling etc.
If you believe in a God then you have to seek and find his directives. If his directive is against abortion then you have to abide by it. Of course every situation can be different and God has the prerogative to forgive anyone. IMO
In my opinion - just because we have free will doesn't mean we are free to do what we want. There are guidelines! There is a path to follow. Rape victim's represent extenuate circumstances IMO but if you only going to look at their position then you will never understand that God's directive is for the greater good. As I already mentioned in my last post - guidelines are provided in a generalized fashion - since you can't make rules for each circumstance separately. IMO

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You're obviously more concerned about the body than you are consciousness.

 

[Fool]

Originally you saidd that the fetus is not a human because its conected and dependent to the mother's body

Now you are saying or implying that it is not a human because it doesn't have consciousness

So which one is it ?


Besides you ignored my question

But anyway exactly what is your view

1 a fetus is part of the woman’s body (like a tumor)

2 a fetus is an independent organism but has no value (like a parasite)

3 the fetus is a human like you and I but abortion is justified anyway

4 some other option (please explain)

it isn't separate. There can't be two consciousnesses in one body. It is one mass having one mind. Two consciousnesses in one body would be possession

 

[leroy]

it isn't separate. There can't be two consciousnesses in one body.

Maybe, but luckily we have 2 bodies (the woman and the unborn child) each body has its DNA its organs its blood etc.

Do you have any serious argument that shows beyond reasonable doubt that the fetus is part of the woman's body ?