Fighting with God

[idea]

Yin/Yang, perhaps there is anger at first towards God, then forgiveness of God along with forgiveness of everyone and everything, and then a period of redefining what perfect is, and final acceptance of what is? Anger comes before forgiveness I think.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry for the particularly unusual title.
I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Well...it is not that simple to explain. We think of God as that distant, cold Almighty Being who left us alone when he decided to give us free will.
That is why Evolution works like a charm for us.
It is the evidence that God has never cared and never will. Nature evolves regardless of God.
Whereas some Protestants won't accept Evolution, because they love God more than us.



And I will conclude by quoting a passage from The Thorn Birds. By C. Mc Collough.

Oh, dear God, dear God! No, not dear God! What's God ever done for me, except deprive me of Ralph? We're not too fond of each other, God and I. And do You know something, God? You don't frighten me the way You used to. How much I feared You, your punishment! All my life I've trodden the straight and narrow, from fear of You. And what's it got me? Not one scrap more than if I'd broken every rule in Your book. You're a fraud, God, a demon of fear. You treat us like children, dangling punishment. But you don't frighten me anymore. Because it isn't Ralph I ought to be hating, it's You. It's all Your fault's. Not poor Ralph's. He's just living in fear of you, the way I always have. That he could love You is something I can't understand. I don't see what there is about You to love.


I confess it is like I wrote that myself. The author is portraying a Catholic's thoughts, after all.
The thoughts of a woman who cannot have the man she loves because he dedicated his life to God.

So that's why Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary more than God? This is your analysis on that topic?

 

[Deeje]

I cannot see any evidence of rebellion in Eden, in the Eden story.
Genesis 1 tells us a man and a woman were created, and they were told to be fruitful and multiply.
Also they are told that every fruit of a tree yielding seed shall be good for meat.
Apparently they were fruitful and multiplied, since the earth is pretty full today.

Yes, that right and I would direct you to my reply to @Estro Felino to fill in some details.

Then Genesis 2 is the first mention of Eden, and it is a garden planted eastward. Eastward of what? Eastward of the earth perhaps?

In context it appears that it was “east” of where God created Adam. He was alone in the garden for some time whilst God educated him....then God created a mate for him. They are not different stories but the same story with the same characters. There was only Adam and his wife whom he named “Eve”...
Genesis 3:20-24...
“20 After this Adam named his wife Eve, because she was to become the mother of everyone living. 21 And Jehovah God made long garments from skins for Adam and for his wife, to clothe them. 22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

Do you see there that Eve was to “become the mother of everyone living”.....meaning that the whole human race would descend from her.....that means that there were no other humans in existence outside the garden.

Their response to sin was shame because of their nakedness. So sexual sin was their first realization......and they had made loin coverings for themselves......God, however made long garments of skin, and evicted them from the garden and denied access to the only means they had to continue living indefinitely. There is no mention of the trees of life again, until the Revelation 22:1-2, which is the outcome of God’s purpose when He reinstates his rulership over mankind and the situation described in Revelation 21:2-4 will become our reality....but again, only if we are obedient to God's commands now.

And another man is created and put there. Then a woman comes along and eats a fruit. Obviously that was a problem in this garden, but it wasn’t a problem for all the people created in Genesis 1, since they were told that every fruit is ok.

Genesis ch 1 is a general ordered description of the process of creation.
Genesis 2 is a “history” or a more detailed account of those processes. They are not separate stories with different groups of people. They are both one story with different details.

I don’t get the whole sin problem. A couple of people allegedly sinned by simply eating fruit, but still everyone else outside the garden did nothing wrong.

There are no others outside the garden. Adam and his wife are the only humans directly created by God, otherwise nothing in the Bible makes sense. Jesus coming to die for us would be pointless if other humans existed and had access to the tree of life. It was in the garden and after those two had disobeyed, God kicked them out and they never had access to the tree of life again. Angels were posted to make sure of it.

Then they are driven out of the garden. There is no mention of angels anywhere in this Eden story.

What am I missing?

LOL....lots actually. Angels were present at creation as is indicated in the book of Job.
Job 38:4-7....God asks Job.....
“4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?”

The devil was not identified as the original liar in Eden until Jesus compared the Pharisees to him.
John 8:44...
“44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”

Being the "father of the lie" puts him right back in Eden when he lied to the woman in order to get her to take the forbidden fruit. Revelation also identified the devil as the “serpent” in the garden of Eden. (Revelation 20:1-3)

Not trying to be a pain, but what you say doesn’t fit with what I read in the story.

Please try to re-read the accounts now with this clarification.....and see if it makes more sense.....
Keep asking questions...they are good ones and deserve an answer.

 

[metis]

So that's why Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary more than God? This is your analysis on that topic?

Not Mary, but pretty much equally with God & Jesus, as the Church's teachings is that they are intertwined with Jesus being of the "essence" of God.

 

[pearl]

So that's why Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary more than God? This is your analysis on that topic?

Catholic prayer is addressed to God the Father through Christ his Son. Yes there are particular 'Jesus' prayers, usually for personal meditation, a mantra, with Jesus as in 'the Jesus prayer';
The derivation of the power behind the invocation of Jesus' name comes from Saint Paul as he writes in Philippians 2, "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Yes, that right and I would direct you to my reply to @Estro Felino to fill in some details.


In context it appears that it was “east” of where God created Adam. He was alone in the garden for some time whilst God educated him....then God created a mate for him. They are not different stories but the same story with the same characters. There was only Adam and his wife whom he named “Eve”...
Genesis 3:20-24...
“20 After this Adam named his wife Eve, because she was to become the mother of everyone living. 21 And Jehovah God made long garments from skins for Adam and for his wife, to clothe them. 22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

Do you see there that Eve was to “become the mother of everyone living”.....meaning that the whole human race would descend from her.....that means that there were no other humans in existence outside the garden.

Their response to sin was shame because of their nakedness. So sexual sin was their first realization......and they had made loin coverings for themselves......God, however made long garments of skin, and evicted them from the garden and denied access to the only means they had to continue living indefinitely. There is no mention of the trees of life again, until the Revelation 22:1-2, which is the outcome of God’s purpose when He reinstates his rulership over mankind and the situation described in Revelation 21:2-4 will become our reality....but again, only if we are obedient to God's commands now.


Genesis ch 1 is a general ordered description of the process of creation.
Genesis 2 is a “history” or a more detailed account of those processes. They are not separate stories with different groups of people. They are both one story with different details.


There are no others outside the garden. Adam and his wife are the only humans directly created by God, otherwise nothing in the Bible makes sense. Jesus coming to die for us would be pointless if other humans existed and had access to the tree of life. It was in the garden and after those two had disobeyed, God kicked them out and they never had access to the tree of life again. Angels were posted to make sure of it.


LOL....lots actually. Angels were present at creation as is indicated in the book of Job.
Job 38:4-7....God asks Job.....
“4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?”

The devil was not identified as the original liar in Eden until Jesus compared the Pharisees to him.
John 8:44...
“44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”

Being the "father of the lie" puts him right back in Eden when he lied to the woman in order to get her to take the forbidden fruit. Revelation also identified the devil as the “serpent” in the garden of Eden. (Revelation 20:1-3)


Please try to re-read the accounts now with this clarification.....and see if it makes more sense.....
Keep asking questions...they are good ones and deserve an answer.

Thank you so much for responding Deeje.

I specifically asked you, because you are one of the very few here who gives thoughtful and concise answers to these kinds of questions.

It is long, so I am going to give your response some thorough study after I eat dinner.

Thanks much.

 

[Deeje]

Catholic prayer is addressed to God the Father through Christ his Son. Yes there are particular 'Jesus' prayers, usually for personal meditation, a mantra, with Jesus as in 'the Jesus prayer';

To whom did Jesus teach us to pray...?
"Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven."

Jesus was praying to his Father...but also "OUR Father"....who was "in heaven", whilst he was on the earth. (John 20:17)

He also said to his disciples.......
"You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name."

Asking something "in Jesus' name" is not the same as praying to Jesus. His role as the only Mediator makes him the "go between".....in whose name our prayer is delivered. This requires acknowledging that the Father and son are NOT equals. There are no other intercessors.

The derivation of the power behind the invocation of Jesus' name comes from Saint Paul as he writes in Philippians 2, "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

You didn't finish the scripture....it concludes by saying....
"and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Everything Jesus did was to the glory of his God and Father.
Jesus accepted no worship, nor was he the one to whom any prayer was to be directed.....the Father alone is the one who hears prayer. (Psalm 65:2)

 

[Brian2]

LOL....lots actually. Angels were present at creation as is indicated in the book of Job.
Job 38:4-7....God asks Job.....
“4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?”

The angels were present when God made the earth, but that is all it says. We do not know when the angels were created but since in Gen 1:1 is says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth I would say that God created a place for the angels to live before He created the angels.

 

[pearl]

Everything Jesus did was to the glory of his God and Father.

Do you not grow tired of deliberately spewing non truths of others religion?

"Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor are yours Almighty Father for ever and ever.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Genesis ch 1 is a general ordered description of the process of creation.
Genesis 2 is a “history” or a more detailed account of those processes. They are not separate stories with different groups of people. They are both one story with different details

They seem very different. They don’t have the same theme, they talk of totally different things, they even refer to God with a different name. Genesis 2, verse 4, the new name for God arrives with the new story. The first story ends with Genesis 2, verse 3

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Being the "father of the lie" puts him right back in Eden when he lied to the woman in order to get her to take the forbidden fruit

I cannot see anything the snake said that was a lie.

Everything the poor snake said was true.

People keep thinking the snake was bad, I don’t see it.

 

[metis]

I cannot see anything the snake said that was a lie.

Everything the poor snake said was true.

People keep thinking the snake was bad, I don’t see it.

In Middle Eastern lore, the "serpent", which is the actual translation from the Hebrew, was considered to be wise, prone to trickery, but also potentially dangerous.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

In Middle Eastern lore, the "serpent", which is the actual translation from the Hebrew, was considered to be wise, prone to trickery, but also potentially dangerous.

I like that. I also like the name serpent as well.

 

[Deeje]

They seem very different. They don’t have the same theme, they talk of totally different things, they even refer to God with a different name. Genesis 2, verse 4, the new name for God arrives with the new story. The first story ends with Genesis 2, verse 3

Genesis 2:4 ties the two chapters together as one story.
The first mention of Yahweh’s (Jehovah’s) name is in verse 4 but is mentioned thereafter almost 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures.

יְהֹוָ֤ה אֱלֹהִים֙ is God Yahweh. The title “God” אֱלֹהִים֙ is used in ch 1 but but his personal name יְהֹוָ֤ה is used from Ch 2:4 onwards. It is not a new name but God’s title along with his name. (Psalm 83:18) “God” and “Lord” (Adonai) are titles, not names.

Verse 4 says that what follows is a “history” or what the Tanah translates as the “generations” of the heavens and the earth.

If you read on in ch 2, verses 5&6 briefly mention the fact that it hadn’t yet rained on the earth but a mist would arise and water the surface of the ground. This seems a somewhat insignificant detail but it ties in with the flood of Noah’s day. When God said he would make it rain....it was something that had never happened before. More about that later....

From verse 7 the story is mostly about the creation of man and God’s interaction with Adam, his education, and instruction concerning the forbidden fruit. It includes God’s creation of a mate for him, made from his own DNA.

The story thereafter is about the rebellion and God’s response to it. It speaks of the ‘generations’ of man and their descent into sin. But it also highlights the fact that there were shining lights in the darkness.....men and women of faith whose examples are there for us to imitate. Though they lived in different times, human nature does not change, so regardless of how long ago these people lived, their faith can inspire us.

Genesis gives us the beginning of the story....Revelation tells us how it ends....that is my understanding...

 

[Deeje]

I cannot see anything the snake said that was a lie.

Everything the poor snake said was true.

People keep thinking the snake was bad, I don’t see it.

I guess putting the whole story into context solves that for me.

Did God lie? When he said “in the day they you eat from it, you will surely die”.....it is very apparent that the pair did not die on that day.....but upon investigation, we find that the Hebrew word “day” (yohm) can mean a literal 24 hour day or a period of undetermined length. That means that even the “days” in Genesis were not 24 hour days, but vast periods of undetermined length as science confirms. So I t also means that the “day” they ate from the fruit, was also not a literal 24 hour day. How do we know this?

The apostle Peter shed light on this...
“But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” (2 Peter 3:8 ESV)
So looking at the life span of Adam and those who descended from him up to the time of the flood, humans lived very long lives.
Did Adam live to be a thousand years old? No....he died at the age of 930 and the oldest man recorded in the Bible was Methulelah at 969. So has any human lived a full “day” in God’s counting of a “day”?

The snake did indeed lie....they died because they rebelled by disobeying a direct command from their God, and had “the tree of life” taken away from them....never to gain access to it again. But God allowed them to fulfill the first part of his mandate...to “fill the earth” with their offspring.

Did they “become like God in knowing good and bad”? What has history told us about man’s ability to distinguish between the two?

Hebrews 6:17-18...
“So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.” (ESV)

God does not lie.....he cannot lie.....it is an impossibility.

 

[Deeje]

I like that. I also like the name serpent as well.

Genesis 3:1
“Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made....”

Here is the Jewish understanding of the serpent’s interaction with the first humans.....
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3927046/jewish/The-First-Human-Beings.htm

As Christians we have the advantage of John’s Revelation to identify that original “serpent”.....as satan the devil. (Revelation 12:7-9)
I am not sure that Jews have a specific identity for the devil but merely call him “the adversary”. (Job ch 1 & 2)

 

[Deeje]

The angels were present when God made the earth, but that is all it says. We do not know when the angels were created but since in Gen 1:1 is says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth I would say that God created a place for the angels to live before He created the angels.

Whatever realm God occupies, all spirit creatures were created to live there. It is called “heaven” but no one really knows where or what “heaven actually is. Some were given glimpses in visions but found it difficult to describe in human terms. It is apparently a glorious place with glorious beings serving their very glorious God.

As God’s “firstborn” and “only begotten”, the spirit being who became Jesus Christ, was used as the agency through whom all creation came, in heaven and in the material universe. (Colossians 1:15-17)

There is no indication in scripture as to how much time elapsed between the creation of God’s firstborn, and the other “sons of God” who applauded material creation.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Genesis 3:1
“Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made....”

Here is the Jewish understanding of the serpent’s interaction with the first humans.....
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3927046/jewish/The-First-Human-Beings.htm

As Christians we have the advantage of John’s Revelation to identify that original “serpent”.....as satan the devil. (Revelation 12:7-9)
I am not sure that Jews have a specific identity for the devil but merely call him “the adversary”. (Job ch 1 & 2)

My Jewish stepfather says he understands our concept of devil, but doesn’t believe in devil or hell.

Deeje, you always have great insight to my questions, and always willing to share.

Thanks for being such a wonderful person.

 

[Deeje]

My Jewish stepfather says he understands our concept of devil, but doesn’t believe in devil or hell.

Deeje, you always have great insight to my questions, and always willing to share.

Thanks for being such a wonderful person.

Awwwe.....thank you. It’s been my life’s work to study the Bible with a view to understanding the big picture. Taking that approach helped me to see where all the pieces fit and to make sense of all the things that made no sense to me as a nominal Christian.

There was only one group of Christians that I found who could teach me how to study. Christendom’s approach was to toss around ideas and come up with “I think it means this or that”....which is ridiculous to me. Jesus taught in absolutes not maybe’s. When you know what you believe and why you believe it, it makes it easy then to pass information on to others. If it makes perfect sense to me, then I hope it will make perfect sense to others.

Take care....and keep asking. (Matthew 7:7-8)

 

[Brian2]

They seem very different. They don’t have the same theme, they talk of totally different things, they even refer to God with a different name. Genesis 2, verse 4, the new name for God arrives with the new story. The first story ends with Genesis 2, verse 3

Genesis 1 looks like the description of God creating everything and Genesis 2 seems to concentrate on man and God's creation of man and when God formed the animals for Adam to name that was not the creation of the animals, it was what God did instead of gathering the already created animals from wherever they were to show Adam.