Filling In the Gaps

[Riverwolf]

I strive for as much accuracy as I can in my beliefs and practices with the current historical consensus on how the Celto-Germanic Tribes did. But a major problem with going only on that consensus is that it forces a LOT of gaps in the Lore, which I have trouble with.

The reason I don't really call myself a reconstructionist is because I have a need to fill in those gaps myself.

Who was Njord's wife? Are Freyja and Frigg really the same Goddess? If Freyja is a title rather than a "name", what might her "name" have been? What were some of the household rituals that they did for simple good luck? What is the real relationship between Celtic and Germanic Tribes, and how much did they truly resemble or differ from each other? Who, exactly, ARE the Vanir? There's dozens of other questions that don't yet have answers, and the historical consensus might never have any definitive ones.

I fill in the gaps myself, based on surviving rituals and stories, folk practices, linguistic hints(which I don't yet have enough knowledge to really do anything with), so I can have something that may not be historically accurate, but at least means something to me personally, as someone who lives in an environment completely different than that of the Tribes.

I believe very much in the hypothesis that the Goddess Nerthus that Tacitus spoke of is Njord's wife. I believe that Freyja and Frigg are basically the same Goddess in different manifest roles (a concept that is probably an echo from my time as a Hindu). One of Frey's "names" is Ing; a semi-common female name these days is Inga; I believe that Inga, therefore, is Freyja's "name". I believe that the Vanir and the Elves are almost the same beings, with the Light Elves being the forces of good luck and those who died content, the Dark Elves being the forces of bad luck and those who died malcontent, and the Vanir basically the Elf Kings. I believe that the differences between the Celtic and Germanic Tribes would have been based on the same things that would have separated the Tribes within those two respective language groups; that is, they shared a pan-culture with each other, with differences primarily based on geographical distance.

Of course, these are subject to change given new information, which I'm always getting. What do you guys think of filling in some of the gaps yourself?

 

[Quintessence]

Somehow I missed this topic earlier. >_>

Most of the gods I honor are literally various aspects of reality, so my axis isn't centered on a particular body of mythic lore from a more traditional Pagan pantheon. Instead I approach knowing my gods through whatever resources seem appropriate. If I want to get to know Storm Spirit, I'll study the relevant sciences that teach about that part of reality, I'll aim to directly experience things for myself, and I'll look at folklore and mythos connected with storms from just about any source. The folklore could be historical events, old tales of traditional Pagan gods, even something from pop culture mythology like a video game or TV show. Perhaps because I don't limit myself to knowledge coming from a particular source, the issue of gaps isn't as likely to come up for me.

That said, there are always going to be gaps in human knowledge. I just accept that as matter of course. Ultimately, we will never have a total understanding of anything as humans. We only know bits of the territory; our understanding of a thing is not the thing itself. I think that is exciting, because it means there is always more to learn, and there is always a new way to be looking at the gods. Some may be put off by that flexibility and not knowing "the answer" but I get the impression that wasn't an issue in Pagan mythos. Various gods often have multiple origin stories that conflict with each other, for example, and perhaps we should take from that the idea that no one story will capture the full essence of that deity. We get to select the stories we want to tell, and that says as much about us and how we see ourselves in the world as it does about the gods.

I don't know if these ramblings are making any sense, but it's what came to mind this afternoon.

 

[EyeofOdin]

I strive for as much accuracy as I can in my beliefs and practices with the current historical consensus on how the Celto-Germanic Tribes did. But a major problem with going only on that consensus is that it forces a LOT of gaps in the Lore, which I have trouble with.

The reason I don't really call myself a reconstructionist is because I have a need to fill in those gaps myself.

Who was Njord's wife? Are Freyja and Frigg really the same Goddess? If Freyja is a title rather than a "name", what might her "name" have been? What were some of the household rituals that they did for simple good luck? What is the real relationship between Celtic and Germanic Tribes, and how much did they truly resemble or differ from each other? Who, exactly, ARE the Vanir? There's dozens of other questions that don't yet have answers, and the historical consensus might never have any definitive ones.

I fill in the gaps myself, based on surviving rituals and stories, folk practices, linguistic hints(which I don't yet have enough knowledge to really do anything with), so I can have something that may not be historically accurate, but at least means something to me personally, as someone who lives in an environment completely different than that of the Tribes.

I believe very much in the hypothesis that the Goddess Nerthus that Tacitus spoke of is Njord's wife. I believe that Freyja and Frigg are basically the same Goddess in different manifest roles (a concept that is probably an echo from my time as a Hindu). One of Frey's "names" is Ing; a semi-common female name these days is Inga; I believe that Inga, therefore, is Freyja's "name". I believe that the Vanir and the Elves are almost the same beings, with the Light Elves being the forces of good luck and those who died content, the Dark Elves being the forces of bad luck and those who died malcontent, and the Vanir basically the Elf Kings. I believe that the differences between the Celtic and Germanic Tribes would have been based on the same things that would have separated the Tribes within those two respective language groups; that is, they shared a pan-culture with each other, with differences primarily based on geographical distance.

Of course, these are subject to change given new information, which I'm always getting. What do you guys think of filling in some of the gaps yourself?

Perhaps I can be of assistance, because I do LOVE comparative linguistics.

Here's a pantheon to refer to:

Djews Pater- Chieftain god of the sky. He's reconstruction is derived from Zeus, Tyr, Jupiter, Dyaus Pita, Dispater as well as others. His name literally means "Sky Father" or "Heavenly Father".

Pletawi Mater or Dehghom- Mother goddess of the Earth and fertility. She may or may not have been betrothed to Djews Pater, and more likely not for the later PIEans. She is reconstructed from Pirthivi, Dhe Mote, Mati Zjemla and possibly Demeter.

Perkwunos- God of thunder and lightning. Known from Perkunas and Perun. Another name contains the fragment tar. I personally think the best reconstruction of the name of him is Taranos (any of the As could be Os though), from Proto Germanic Thunraz (also known as Thor), Proto-Celtic Toranos and Vedic Indra.

Heusos or Ausos- Goddess of the dawn. She's the daughter of Djews Pater. From Germanic Eostra, Hellenic Eos, Roman Aurora and Indian Ushas. There's a possibility she also is the origin of Vesta.

Based on the many different nature spirits among PIE cultures like Germ. Dwarves or Elves, Gk Satyrs or Nymphs and Vedic Aspara, it's very likely that there was at least one clan of spirits.

Cosmic Sperpent Either serpent or dragon is also likely. Reconstruction is based on Germ Jormungand, Gk Typhon, Hydra and Python and Hindu Vrtra.

World Tree- The idea of a world tree is present in Vedic, Norse and Celtic mythologies, but seems to be lost in Greco-Roman Lore.

Very likely there was also at least a pair of divine twins, but what they were or how many is unclear.

There are other other proposed deities but it's difficult to say the accuracy of the reconstruction, from their name to existence.

Hepom Nepots- A sea or water god. Greek Neptune, Vedic Apam Napat and Germanic Njord.

Welnos- Sometimes said to be a sky god (Greek Ouranos) or a pastoral deity, from gods of wealth or glory like Slavic Veles, Germanic Ullr.

Three fate goddesses are also hypothesized, from Germanic Norns and Greek Moirai. They weave a thread, which is supposed to represent fate or destiny.

Pehuson- Pastoral god or god of the earth ( Gk Pan, Italic Faunus)

Yemos and Mannus- Twin brothers who either are the first mortals or cosmological gods who are the first to die. Mannus seems to be the father of humanity (Germanic Mannus, Vedic Manu) while Yemos (Germanic Ymir and Vedic Yama) seems to have some sort of role in cosmology or establishing order. If mortals, they seem to become gods of some sort after their death. Yemos would probably be the god of death or lord of the underworld while Mannus is an ascended ancestral master of some sorts.

Sawul and Menots- Goddess and God of the Sun and Moon, who carried it across the sky on their chariot. Sawul is from Gremanic Sowol, Italic Sol, Greek Helios and Vedic Surya. Menots is from Germanic Monne, Greek Mene and Lithuanian Meno.

Horse Twins- Maybe gods, maybe not, but at least spirits who accompany Sawul and tell her stories to keep her company. One is a horse and the other is a god or spirit. PIEans probably observed Venus and made the myth out of that. Reconstructed from Old English Hengist and Horsa and Greco-Roman Castor and Pollux.

Giants- A race of large, anthropomorphic beings, or at least beings or are giant like were possibly present in PIE religion and worldview. Sometimes they have relations with the gods, such as Odin and Jord bearing Thor or Polyphemos being the son of Poseidon. Notable races of giants are Jotunnar, Ispolini, Cyclopes and Daityas from Germanic, Bulgarian, Greek and Vedic Lore.

As for Freyja's name, the names of all gods are or started out as titles. No deity actually and literally came down and proclaimed "I am Odin!" but the people gave the deity a title encompassing some major aspect of it. Some examples: Thor's name comes from Proto-Germanic "Thunraz" from Proto-Indo-European "Tanaros" which means "Thunderer". "Odin" comes from Proto-Germanic "Wotanaz", possibly being from a PIE "Watinos", meaning "Being of [spiritual] excitement". Names were invented by humans, and gods predate humanity. They don't need names.

The relationship between the Celtic and Germanic tribes, I think, goes something like this:

Take Tribe A, the PIE tribe or tribes in probably Russia. Something happens. We don't know what it is, but it causes some of tribe A to go and form Tribe B and move southwest. They stay together for a very long time until they split and form Hellenic and Italic tribes. Meanwhile, Tribe A has more we-don't-know-what and Tribe C moves southeast to form the Persian and Vedic peoples. Tribe A then splits into two tribes, tribes AA and AB. AA stays in Russia or moves further in while AB goes to Germany. AB splits into AB1 and AB2. AB1 populates the west and becomes the Celts while AB2 moves into Scandinavia and becomes the Proto-Germanic tribes. Granted, I'm not an expert.

Elves probably have their origins in the Proto-Indo-European Nature spirits. The ones associated with death are now called "dwarves" or "dark elves". The word "dwarf" comes from a PIE word "dheur" meaning "destruction". The Nature spirits associated with good fortune, spirit and magick were called "Elves", from the PIE word "albos" meaning "white" or "light".

As for the Aesir, Vanir and Jotunnar, they too have PIE origins. For the Proto-Indo-Europeans, there were the Ansuz (the gods) and a race of giants whose overall name hasn't been reconstructed. The Giants as a whole were malicious but individually they could be good or chaotic, but most were considered benevolent. They seem to be primordial gods of Nature, as their bodies made up the cosmos. Their role as fertility gods was taken by the Vanir and they became elemental gods. This is also reflected in the Greek Olympian vs Titan war or with Daityas in Hindu Lore.

 

[Jainarayan]

Perkwunos- God of thunder and lightning. Known from Perkunas and Perun. Another name contains the fragment tar. I personally think the best reconstruction of the name of him is Taranos (any of the As could be Os though), from Proto Germanic Thunraz (also known as Thor), Proto-Celtic Toranos and Vedic Indra.

We also have Parjanya in Hinduism, who morphed into the god of rain, rain clouds and thunder clouds. He is mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita 3.14 "Living beings are created and find their source in food, food is created by rainfall. Parjanya gives us the material blessings of rainfall and thus abundance in the material world by the creation of food and other crops." He is also mentioned in a Yajur Veda hymn, the Pushpam Mantra:

parjanyo vā apām āyathanam āyathanavān bhavathi
yah parjanyasya āyathanam veda āyathanavān bhavathi
āpo vai parjanyasya āyathanam āyathanavān bhavathi
ya evam veda yo apām āyathanam veda āyathanavān bhavathi

Clouds are the source of water,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself,
Water is the source of clouds,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself.
He who knows the source of water,
Becomes established in himself,

As for Freyja's name, the names of all gods are or started out as titles. No deity actually and literally came down and proclaimed "I am Odin!" but the people gave the deity a title encompassing some major aspect of it. Some examples: Thor's name comes from Proto-Germanic "Thunraz" from Proto-Indo-European "Tanaros" which means "Thunderer". "Odin" comes from Proto-Germanic "Wotanaz", possibly being from a PIE "Watinos", meaning "Being of [spiritual] excitement". Names were invented by humans, and gods predate humanity. They don't need names.

This is particularly true for the Hindu deities:
Shiva = auspicious.
Vishnu = pervading.
Krishna = dark (or attractive);
Durga = invincible or unassailable.
Kālī = black (the feminine of kāla); also 'time'.
Ganapati (Ganesha) = lord of hosts.

Those are just a few. To the best of my knowledge all the names of the deities are adjectives, not proper names.

 

[Riverwolf]

One of Frey's "names" is Ing; a semi-common female name these days is Inga; I believe that Inga, therefore, is Freyja's "name".

As for Freyja's name, the names of all gods are or started out as titles. No deity actually and literally came down and proclaimed "I am Odin!" but the people gave the deity a title encompassing some major aspect of it. Some examples: Thor's name comes from Proto-Germanic "Thunraz" from Proto-Indo-European "Tanaros" which means "Thunderer". "Odin" comes from Proto-Germanic "Wotanaz", possibly being from a PIE "Watinos", meaning "Being of [spiritual] excitement". Names were invented by humans, and gods predate humanity. They don't need names.

Indeed, this is true. I've also recently come to a revelation of sorts that caused me to question my above assertion that Freya's "name" might have been "Inga".

The name "Ing" is, apparently, only the first half of the name "Yngvi-Freyr", which, when following the relevant trail on Wikipedia, comes to this name ultimately meaning: "Lord of the Ingvi People", who seem to have been, according to Tacitus, a cultural group of Tribes comprising the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisii, Cimbri, Teutons, and Chauci. Essentially, the Tribes that lived in modern day Netherlands and Denmark, and many of whom would become the English.

Hm... come to think of it, EENG-lish? The Online Etymology Dictionary lists the word "Angles" as coming from the fact that Jutland is shaped like a fish hook; i.e., an angle, but I wonder if this similarity to Ingvi is indicative of a relationship?

Well, in any case, Frey the God is associated now with the Swedish Aethelings, not the English ones.

There is DEFINITELY a lot of hidden depth and connections to be found, or recreated, here.

...definitely let it be known that I keep the stuff I use to fill the gaps quite distinct from the knowledge we have on how our ancestors were, and definitely subject to alteration. (Like honey in a honeycomb.)

The relationship between the Celtic and Germanic tribes, I think, goes something like this:

Take Tribe A, the PIE tribe or tribes in probably Russia. Something happens. We don't know what it is, but it causes some of tribe A to go and form Tribe B and move southwest. They stay together for a very long time until they split and form Hellenic and Italic tribes. Meanwhile, Tribe A has more we-don't-know-what and Tribe C moves southeast to form the Persian and Vedic peoples. Tribe A then splits into two tribes, tribes AA and AB. AA stays in Russia or moves further in while AB goes to Germany. AB splits into AB1 and AB2. AB1 populates the west and becomes the Celts while AB2 moves into Scandinavia and becomes the Proto-Germanic tribes. Granted, I'm not an expert.

Would probably make more sense in a diagram than a paragraph. LOL

Elves probably have their origins in the Proto-Indo-European Nature spirits. The ones associated with death are now called "dwarves" or "dark elves". The word "dwarf" comes from a PIE word "dheur" meaning "destruction". The Nature spirits associated with good fortune, spirit and magick were called "Elves", from the PIE word "albos" meaning "white" or "light".

As for the Aesir, Vanir and Jotunnar, they too have PIE origins. For the Proto-Indo-Europeans, there were the Ansuz (the gods) and a race of giants whose overall name hasn't been reconstructed. The Giants as a whole were malicious but individually they could be good or chaotic, but most were considered benevolent. They seem to be primordial gods of Nature, as their bodies made up the cosmos. Their role as fertility gods was taken by the Vanir and they became elemental gods. This is also reflected in the Greek Olympian vs Titan war or with Daityas in Hindu Lore.

Definitely stuff I need to keep in mind.

However, really when I fill the gaps in, it's not so much just using the common Indo-European Lore, but also trying to see what makes our Lore distinct, and how it might have continued to grow distinct had we not been Christianized.

 

[Riverwolf]

I also came up with a sort of list of the various types of Wights, their English names, and their natural associations. It's quite tentative, though, and subject to being altered or discarded depending on feedback and new information.

Wight - Association
Os - Sky (Aesir)
Wane - Earth (Vanir)
Elf - Woodland
Ettin - Mountain (Giant/Jotunn)
Dwarf - Foothill
Neck - Water (nixie/nicor/nokken)
Orc - Bog
Wyrm - Cave (dragons)

This is how I have it listed in one of my notebooks. A lot of this was based on some of the tidbits of information I gleen in my searches.

Now, based on this:

Elves probably have their origins in the Proto-Indo-European Nature spirits. The ones associated with death are now called "dwarves" or "dark elves". The word "dwarf" comes from a PIE word "dheur" meaning "destruction". The Nature spirits associated with good fortune, spirit and magick were called "Elves", from the PIE word "albos" meaning "white" or "light".

As for the Aesir, Vanir and Jotunnar, they too have PIE origins. For the Proto-Indo-Europeans, there were the Ansuz (the gods) and a race of giants whose overall name hasn't been reconstructed. The Giants as a whole were malicious but individually they could be good or chaotic, but most were considered benevolent. They seem to be primordial gods of Nature, as their bodies made up the cosmos. Their role as fertility gods was taken by the Vanir and they became elemental gods. This is also reflected in the Greek Olympian vs Titan war or with Daityas in Hindu Lore.

What I've put together is definitely not 100% consistent with the PIE Lore. However, a lot of what I use to justify the associations I've assigned is based on what I've heard to be the sorts of environments there are in Britain (granted, I've never been there), and much of Europe. Orcs are listed here, being one of the evil entities listed in Beowulf (along with Elves and Giants), and being apparently associated with death. The reason I've given them an association with Bogs is based on the fact that Bogs were places where human sacrifice often took place. They're also breeding grounds for all kinds of diseases, and disease-spreading insects; I find it likely that the Northern Folk, recognizing that fact, would have thus associated Bogs with Death.

Wyrms/Dragons associated with caves is largely based on the fact that such creatures in Lore are generally found there. Necks seem less common in the now-written Lore, but seem quite common in Folklore. Ettins' association with Mountains is based on the harsh, harsh conditions of high mountains during storms, and the destructive forces of avalanches and volcanic eruptions.

However, Elves being largely associated with Woodland is from more general Elven/Fairy-Lore from Christian times, and Dwarves being associated with foothills is largely based on modern Anglo-American fantasy (since I don't know of any place in Lore where they actually have that association). While Dwarves may have at one time been the Wights associated with Death, modern conceptions don't really have that, anymore, and so I largely discard it.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Indeed, this is true. I've also recently come to a revelation of sorts that caused me to question my above assertion that Freya's "name" might have been "Inga".

The name "Ing" is, apparently, only the first half of the name "Yngvi-Freyr", which, when following the relevant trail on Wikipedia, comes to this name ultimately meaning: "Lord of the Ingvi People", who seem to have been, according to Tacitus, a cultural group of Tribes comprising the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisii, Cimbri, Teutons, and Chauci. Essentially, the Tribes that lived in modern day Netherlands and Denmark, and many of whom would become the English.

I can see why you would think that, however the word "Ing" comes from the Proto-Indo-European word Hingwis, meaning fire and possibly was the name of a god or an epithet to Perkwonos. Freyja most likely has her origins in the goddess Xeusos, who had two other epithets. One was Hwestia, where we get Hestia and Vesta. Another is Wenos, where we get Venus and Vanir. Xeusos as Wenos with Hingwis (either as an independent god or an aspect of Perkwonos) became a cosmic pair of consorted fertility deities.

The names Freyr and Freyja may have one of two origins. The first is as an epithet "Priheh" meaning "friend" or "beloved". Another possibility is that they are ultimately derived from Proto-Indo-European perogenh, meaning "to procreate". In their aspects as consorts to each other, it would make sense to call them divine procreators.