Finally Studying... Help?

[Storm]

Hi, all.

So, I've really hit it off with islam abduallah, and due to our conversations, I'm finally getting around to a serious study of Islam. I visited the Muslim Community Center, and bought Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation of the Qur'an, as well as Karen Armstrong's Muhammad: A Prophet For Our Time and John Baldock's The Essence Of Sufism. What do you think of my choices?

I also have some questions/ objections regarding my current understanding of Islamic doctrine. I'm not sure they're welcome here, though, so I won't post them without feedback. I don't want to say any of you are wrong to believe these things, but they're the points which make me think I'll never be Muslim. Anyway, I'd like to get your explanations. What do you think? Promise I won't debate.

A final point of curiosity, when I went to the community center, the man who spoke to me refused to shake my hand. He wasn't rude, and apologized profusely, so I'm not mad or anything. I'm wondering why, though. Not to mention hoping it wasn't offensive when I reached out. So, what's up?

 

[Peace]

Hi, all.

So, I've really hit it off with islam abduallah, and due to our conversations, I'm finally getting around to a serious study of Islam. I visited the Muslim Community Center, and bought Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation of the Qur'an, as well as Karen Armstrong's Muhammad: A Prophet For Our Time and John Baldock's The Essence Of Sufism. What do you think of my choices?

Hi Storm,

I would say that's a good start. But I have no idea about Baldock's book and I cannot judge its quality since I haven't read.

I also have some questions/ objections regarding my current understanding of Islamic doctrine. I'm not sure they're welcome here, though, so I won't post them without feedback. I don't want to say any of you are wrong to believe these things, but they're the points which make me think I'll never be Muslim. Anyway, I'd like to get your explanations. What do you think? Promise I won't debate.

Your questions are welcomed. Just go ahead and ask since you won't be debating here

A final point of curiosity, when I went to the community center, the man who spoke to me refused to shake my hand. He wasn't rude, and apologized profusely, so I'm not mad or anything. I'm wondering why, though. Not to mention hoping it wasn't offensive when I reached out. So, what's up?

Of course your reaching out wasn't offensive. And also the man meant no offense to you when he objected to shake hands. He was just following the example of the Prophet who never shook hands with foreign women. I mean by foreign here is women who are not immediate family: wives, daughters, mother, aunts.
Men should shake hands with men only and women should shake hands with women only. By the way, I don't shake hands with men too but if I meet you I would stretch my hand out to you in order to shake hands since you are a woman
So the man didn't mean to be rude when he refused to shake hands.

Peace

 

[Storm]

Of course your reaching out wasn't offensive. And also the man meant no offense to you when he objected to shake hands. He was just following the example of the Prophet who never shook hands with foreign women. I mean by foreign here is women who are not immediate family: wives, daughters, mother, aunts.
Men should shake hands with men only and women should shake hands with women only. By the way, I don't shake hands with men too but if I meet you I would stretch my hand out to you in order to shake hands since you are a woman
So the man didn't mean to be rude when he refused to shake hands.

Peace

OK, thank you for the explanation. He was far too apologetic for me to take offense... must have said "I'm sorry" 4 times. I was more afraid that I'd made a serious breach of etiquette on my first visit! Like the story of the kid who went to Mass and threw the wafer in the garbage.....

Anyway, my questions range from total ignorance to vehement disapproval. Don't worry, though... like I said, this thread is for education, not debate. Just trying to understand. IAnyway, in order of priority:

1) What's with the emphasis on physical modesty? Why is it important?

From my own perspective, the human body is amazing. Scientifically and aesthetically. It should be celebrated as such. Why cover up God's handiwork? I just don't get it.

2) What's the attitude toward sex? I understand that you frown on premarital, but what about within the bonds of marriage?

3) Why are men and women so segregated? Isn't that pretty sexist?

4) Are all Muslims Literalists?
a) Can a Muslim accept evolution? Not asking if you do personally, but if it's compatible with Islam.

5) As many of you know, I'm bi. Does the Qur'an address sexual minorities at all?

6) I'm also a devout Universalist. I reject the concept of eternal, toturous damnation completely. Must a Muslim believe in it, or are there sects that take a milder approach, like possible redemption or Hell as separation from God?

TIA!

 

[Peace]

OK, thank you for the explanation. He was far too apologetic for me to take offense... must have said "I'm sorry" 4 times. I was more afraid that I'd made a serious breach of etiquette on my first visit! Like the story of the kid who went to Mass and threw the wafer in the garbage.....

Anyway, my questions range from total ignorance to vehement disapproval. Don't worry, though... like I said, this thread is for education, not debate. Just trying to understand. IAnyway, in order of priority:
TIA!

1) What's with the emphasis on physical modesty? Why is it important?From my own perspective, the human body is amazing. Scientifically and aesthetically. It should be celebrated as such. Why cover up God's handiwork? I just don't get it.

We do cover our bodies just in public but in private and in our homes we can expose as much as we want and do with it whatever we want. You can find modesty in all relgions. Mary, the mother of Jesus was known for her modesty. Modesty was the norm and the lack of modesty only appears in the 19th and 20th centuries.

God described in the Quran to both men and women the way of dressing and behaviour:

{Tell the believing men to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is acquainted with what they do. And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their head covers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succed.} (An-Nur 24: 30-1)

2) What's the attitude toward sex? I understand that you frown on premarital, but what about within the bonds of marriage?

Of course, sex is allowed only whithin the bonds of marriage.

3) Why are men and women so segregated? Isn't that pretty sexist?

in many situations men and women interact with each other and that should be done with inward modesty and with professionalism. Socialization between the two genders could lead to sinful acts like flurting which can lead to other unwanted consequences. So in order to protect both sexes from such situations, Islam puts certain rules and certain limits to men and women's relationship.

4) Are all Muslims Literalists?

What do you mean? In what sense?

a) Can a Muslim accept evolution? Not asking if you do personally, but if it's compatible with Islam.

This is Islam's stance from evolution and I agree with it.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2503869-post2.html

5) As many of you know, I'm bi. Does the Qur'an address sexual minorities at all?

In Islam whatever your orientation is you should refrain from yielding to it. Islam allows only man woman relationship and that also has restrictions because it should only be within the bonds of marriage and not outside of it. Islam condems homosexuality, sodomy, ect because God didn't create man for that.

6) I'm also a devout Universalist. I reject the concept of eternal, toturous damnation completely. Must a Muslim believe in it, or are there sects that take a milder approach, like possible redemption or Hell as separation from God?

Muslims believe in both heaven and hell and their dwellers will be therein for all the time except as God wills.

 

[Storm]

Thank you, peace.

 

[Storm]

We do cover our bodies just in public but in private and in our homes we can expose as much as we want and do with it whatever we want. You can find modesty in all relgions. Mary, the mother of Jesus was known for her modesty. Modesty was the norm and the lack of modesty only appears in the 19th and 20th centuries.

I understand that, but why is it the standard now? We've changed.

Of course, sex is allowed only whithin the bonds of marriage.

Right, but what's the attitude? Is it sacred? Fun? Procreation-only? Are there forbidden acts? And so on.

in many situations men and women interact with each other and that should be done with inward modesty and with professionalism. Socialization between the two genders could lead to sinful acts like flurting which can lead to other unwanted consequences. So in order to protect both sexes from such situations, Islam puts certain rules and certain limits to men and women's relationship.

Why is flirting sinful, if its all in good fun?

What do you mean? In what sense?

Literalism is the theory of Scriptural interpretation that holds it to be entirely factual. Stories are never metaphoric, they're historical.

To illustrate, I just ran across the story of the Night Journey and Ascent. Must a Muslim believe that the Buraq was a real creature, and Muhammad was physically transported to Jerusalem, or is it acceptable to view this in a metaphoric sense?

Muslims believe in both heaven and hell and their dwellers will be therein for all the time except as God wills.

Must Hell be a place of torture? Might it be exile from divinity?

 

[Peace]

I understand that, but why is it the standard now? We've changed.

but our values don't change.

Right, but what's the attitude? Is it sacred? Fun? Procreation-only? Are there forbidden acts? And so on.

Sex in Islam is sacred and it's for both fun and procreation purposes.
There are two forbidden acts in sex. Anal sex is forbidden; the man should have a vaginal sex with his wife. Also, sex is forbidden while the woman is in her monthly period.

Why is flirting sinful, if its all in good fun?

Islam has a great care for woman and doesn't want her to get sick in the heart and to be hurt delibrately or unintentionaly. by nature, woman is an affectionate and emotional creature and can easily yield to sweet words. Flurting with her could lead her think that that man likes her or in love of her. Thus, her heart can be easily broken and get hurt if she falls in love of him and finds out later that the man is not interested in her at all...
Therefore, Islam put certain rules to man woman relationship. Among those rules, is modesty for both sexes. Also while dealing with each other there should be mutual respect, seriousness, professionalism and what not.

Literalism is the theory of Scriptural interpretation that holds it to be entirely factual. Stories are never metaphoric, they're historical.

We believe in all stories that are in the Quran as factual and historical.

To illustrate, I just ran across the story of the Night Journey and Ascent. Must a Muslim believe that the Buraq was a real creature, and Muhammad was physically transported to Jerusalem, or is it acceptable to view this in a metaphoric sense?

All Muslims believe that story to be true and factual and happened literally.

Must Hell be a place of torture? Might it be exile from divinity?

Hell is a place of torture and an exile from God's mercy.

I hope my answers are satisfying, if not and you need more elaboration please let me know. I believe my yesterday response was not satisfying because it was late at night and I was sleepy.

Peace

 

[Storm]

but our views don't change.

Why not? Tradition is one thing, resisting advancement another. 600 years ago we didn't have cars, but you don't reject those. Morally, slavery was perfectly acceptable, but you don't defend that in modern times. Muhammad married Aisha at the age of 9 (no, I don't think he was a pedophile, don't worry), today that's criminal and disgusting.

Please don't take this as bullish or argumentative. I just. don't. get it, but I really am trying to understand.

Sex in Islam is sacred and it's for both fun and procreation purposes.
There are two forbidden acts in sex. Anal sex is forbidden; the man should have a vaginal sex with his wife. Also, sex is forbidden while the woman is in her monthly period.

OK, cool.

Islam has a great care for woman and doesn't want her to get sick in the heart and to be hurt delibrately or unintentionaly. by nature, woman is an affectionate and emotional creature and can easily yield to sweet words. Flurting with her could lead her think that that man likes her or in love of her. Thus, her heart can be easily broken and get hurt if she falls in love of him and finds out later that the man is not interested in her at all...
Therefore, Islam put certain rules to man woman relationship. Among those rules, is modesty for both sexes. Also while dealing with each other there should be mutual respect, seriousness, professionalism and what not.

That makes sense. I don't agree, but the goal is noble.

I hope my answers are satisfying, if not and you need more elaboration please let me know. I believe my yesterday response was not satisfying because it was late at night and I was sleepy.

LOL, it's fine. The more we post, the more of your brethren will see (and hopefully answer) my questions.

New question regarding my own behavior:
Should I emulate Muslims, or is this "posing?" By way of illustration, would it be more courteous to close my posts with "Salaam," or my own "may you walk in bright shadow?"

My instinct is that emulation is hypocritical, but islam abduallah said I should wear my hijab when visiting the community center, so I don't really know anymore.

 

[Caladan]

My advice is to study some of the contemporary and notable material available on current affairs before you choose to dive into the heavy load of theology.
read about the west's image of the near orienal societies, and the notable paragraphs of Orientalism by Edward Said, the summaries of the notable Quranic paragraphs and the tradition and historical explanation behind them, the notabel historical events such as the divide into the Shiites and the Sunnis.
read of the basic demographics of Islam, Iran, todays largest Shia population, the notable Sunni-Arab counties, Egypt and Syria, Turkey and its historical presence in the middle east.
some of these subjects will provide you with a contemporary image of the world of Islam as it has come to this point in history.

 

[Storm]

My advice is to study some of the contemporary and notable material available on current affairs, before diving into the heavy load of theology.
read the notable paragraphs of Orientalism by Edward Said, the summaries of the notable Quranic paragraphs and the tradition and explanation behind them, the notabel historical events such as the divide into the Shiites and the Sunnis, and the Battle of Karbala. read of the basic demographics of Islam, Iran, todays largest Shia population, the notable Sunni-Arab counties, Egypt and Syria, Turkey and its historical role in the middle east.
some of this subjects will provide you with a contemporary image of the world of Islam as it has come to this point in history.

Cool, thanks. Can you give me specific books to look for?

ETA: Are you familiar with the books listed in the OP? If so, what do you think of them? I'm especially concerned about the quality of the translation, as I was flying blind in my selection. I just got the cheapest copy that looked competent...

 

[Peace]

Why not? Tradition is one thing, resisting advancement another. 600 years ago we didn't have cars, but you don't reject those. Morally, slavery was perfectly acceptable, but you don't defend that in modern times. Muhammad married Aisha at the age of 9 (no, I don't think he was a pedophile, don't worry), today that's criminal and disgusting.

Please don't take this as bullish or argumentative. I just. don't. get it, but I really am trying to understand.


OK, cool.



That makes sense. I don't agree, but the goal is noble.


LOL, it's fine. The more we post, the more of your brethren will see (and hopefully answer) my questions.

New question regarding my own behavior:
Should I emulate Muslims, or is this "posing?" By way of illustration, would it be more courteous to close my posts with "Salaam," or my own "may you walk in bright shadow?"

My instinct is that emulation is hypocritical, but islam abduallah said I should wear my hijab when visiting the community center, so I don't really know anymore.

I will get back to you either this night or tomorrow incha'Allah (God willing!) because I have to leave now.
Concerning emulating Muslims you don't need to that at all. You should behave as you are.
Well concerning visiting a community center there is no need to put a scarf. There are some non-Muslims who put the scarf and modest clothes if they visit a mosque just out of respect to the religion.

Peace

 

[Storm]

I will get back to you either this night or tomorrow incha'Allah (God willing!) because I have to leave now.
Concerning emulating Muslims you don't need to that at all. You should behave as you are.
Well concerning visiting a community center there is no need to put a scarf. There are some non-Muslims who put the scarf and modest clothes if they visit a mosque just out of respect to the religion.

Peace

OK, thank you.

May you walk in bright shadow!

 

[Caladan]

Cool, thanks. Can you give me specific books to look for?

My main contemporary books of middle eastern affairs were written by Noam Chomsky, Bernard Lewis, and an exhausting read of Orientalism by Edward Said.
Britain's collusion with Radical Islam by Mark Curtis has been a very informative read as well. all these libraries of books and these writers have been discussing the involvement of the western powers in middle eastern lands.
and of course reading about the contemporary American foreign policy in the middle east and following the current affairs that take place in North Africa, Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Storm]

Dan, I think you missed the edit, so here it is again.

Are you familiar with the books listed in the OP? If so, what do you think of them? I'm especially concerned about the quality of the translation, as I was flying blind in my selection. I just got the cheapest copy that looked competent...

 

[Caladan]

Dan, I think you missed the edit, so here it is again.

My full read of the Qur'an was in a Hebrew translation. I also read in reasonable stages an Arabic Qur'an that I have, but it is mostly a nostalgic read in classical Arabic.
The English translations may vary. I have an English translation of the Qur'an which I bought ten years ago at a bookmarket.
as for Karen Armstrong, I know her mostly by repute, and by watching a video which presented the history of world religion.
The meaning behind the Noble Qur'an comes from various material I read from Islamic sources and from more contemporary modern sources.

 

[Storm]

OK, thanks for the tips.

 

[Caladan]

Sure thing.

 

[Sahar]

OK, thank you for the explanation. He was far too apologetic for me to take offense... must have said "I'm sorry" 4 times. I was more afraid that I'd made a serious breach of etiquette on my first visit! Like the story of the kid who went to Mass and threw the wafer in the garbage.....

Anyway, my questions range from total ignorance to vehement disapproval. Don't worry, though... like I said, this thread is for education, not debate. Just trying to understand. IAnyway, in order of priority:

1) What's with the emphasis on physical modesty? Why is it important?

Islam emphasizes both physical and spiritual/moral modesty. Islam draws a certain frame for relationships between humans. Modesty is an important quality in our dealing with fellow humans, i.e our relationships should be based on the moral/spiritual qualities rather than the physical. And usually, sensuality and sexuality are associated with the physical body and this is not a bad thing at all if sensuality and sexuality are directed to the husband-wife relationship.

The healthy family is the nucleus of the healthy society. If the physical aspect is to be confined to marriage, I believe more couples will be satisfied with their other half physically, sensually and sexually which promotes a more stable family.
Unfortunately, in the materialistic world we live in, there is no promotion of modesty, but promotion of lust and hedonistic philosophies and consequently taking the physical/sensual aspects to the public social realm. As we witness, the consequences are totally destructive to the individuals and the society as a whole; absurd sexual relations between humans, high divorce rates, troubled children...lost adults...

And this drives me to reply to your second question about sex:

2) What's the attitude toward sex? I understand that you frown on premarital, but what about within the bonds of marriage?

Islam looks very positively towards sex between the married couples to the degree of considering it an act of charity/worship and God rewards you for having sex with your spouse!! Also, sexual satisfaction of women is highly emphasized. For example, according to a hadith, prophet Muhammad said: "Not one of you should fall upon his wife like an animal; but let there first be a messenger between you." "And what is that messenger?" they asked, and he replied: "Kisses and words."
You can check this thread, if you're interested: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/98393-sexuality-sex-islam.html

From my own perspective, the human body is amazing. Scientifically and aesthetically. It should be celebrated as such. Why cover up God's handiwork? I just don't get it.

Why should "the human body is amazing scientifically and aesthetically" contradict with modesty?
Human body is amazing scientifically, yes. God in the Qur'an urged us to understand His creation, how they are created, to contemplate the signs of God in the universe and in us.
Aesthetically, yes amazing, and that's why we keep its beauty between the married couples.
But modesty also is amazing and its beauty surpass the physical beauty. Sheltering one's body with clothes is a blessing from God and one of His signs, as well. Modesty is God's handiwork too that should be celebrated.
The Qur'an says: O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness – that is best. That is from the signs of Allāh that perhaps they will remember. (A'raaf:26)

3) Why are men and women so segregated? Isn't that pretty sexist?

Sexist? How? :sarcastic
I can't say that men and women should be so segregated in Islam, men and women have to deal with each other in this crowded life normally, but Islam regulates the relationship between the two sexes to be based on qualities like respect and modesty away from the physical and sexual aspects that belong to bedrooms.

Why is flirting sinful, if its all in good fun?

As I said, the hedonistic thinking and behavior is totally away from the purified purpose we are created for according to the Islamic thinking. The Muslim's goal is to step higher on the ladder to perfection, God's love and pleasure. Thus, any step/action should take us higher on this ladder.

Running after lusts (the earthly desires) will definitely make you fall down away from your purpose. But Islam doesn't say suppress or ignore your physical desires, but it says let fulfilling these desires take you closer to your goal and this happens when it's done in its clean paths, when this satisfaction is guided by the higher spiritual and moral meanings.
In other words, Islam aims to create an individual whose lusts and physical desires don't control and shape his purpose and movements in this life, but he is the controller of these desires so that fulfilling them can get him closer to his goal; knowing and loving God.

I understand that, but why is it the standard now? We've changed.

Who have changed exactly?
Human core doesn't change. The truth doesn't change. If some people in some periods of history promoted chaotic definitions of human relationships, it doesn't mean their definitions should be the standard to other peoples.
If your society has changed, your society is not my reality nor my standard. Even if your definitions shaped the reality of my society, it doesn't mean I accept this reality, it doesn't mean they are my standards. The Muslim doesn't drive his definitions and standards from people or society, he drives them from the divine guidance that transcends place and time. The Muslim doesn't surrender to the surrounding reality but he attempts to create a better reality.
Frankly, I don't see any of these "changes" tempting or worthy of embrace.

 

[Storm]

Islam emphasizes both physical and spiritual/moral modesty. Islam draws a certain frame for relationships between humans. Modesty is an important quality in our dealing with fellow humans, i.e our relationships should be based on the moral/spiritual qualities rather than the physical. And usually, sensuality and sexuality are associated with the physical body and this is not a bad thing at all if sensuality and sexuality are directed to the husband-wife relationship.

What is spiritual/ moral modesty?

The healthy family is the nucleus of the healthy society. If the physical aspect is to be confined to marriage, I believe more couples will be satisfied with their other half physically, sensually and sexually which promotes a more stable family.

OK, I agree.

Unfortunately, in the materialistic world we live in, there is no promotion of modesty, but promotion of lust and hedonistic philosophies and consequently taking the physical/sensual aspects to the public social realm. As we witness, the consequences are totally destructive to the individuals and the society as a whole; absurd sexual relations between humans, high divorce rates, troubled children...lost adults..

I don't want to go off on tangents, but this troubles me deeply. Have you seen my thread on sexual dysfunction on the cultural level? Your thoughts would be most welcome.

And this drives me to reply to your second question about sex:

Islam looks very positively towards sex between the married couples to the degree of considering it an act of charity/worship and God rewards you for having sex with your spouse!! Also, sexual satisfaction of women is highly emphasized. For example, according to a hadith, prophet Muhammad said: "Not one of you should fall upon his wife like an animal; but let there first be a messenger between you." "And what is that messenger?" they asked, and he replied: "Kisses and words."
You can check this thread, if you're interested: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/98393-sexuality-sex-islam.html

Wonderful! Thanks for the link, will read soon.

Why should "the human body is amazing scientifically and aesthetically" contradict with modesty?

It doesn't, necessarily.

It's just that my Western, former neopagan instinct is to celebrate that astonishing Creation with everyone. Like displaying a work of art. I'm not saying my instinct is better or worse, just different. Your explanations are helping me to understand, but I'm not quite there yet.

Human body is amazing scientifically, yes. God in the Qur'an urged us to understand His creation, how they are created, to contemplate the signs of God in the universe and in us.
Aesthetically, yes amazing, and that's why we keep its beauty between the married couples.
But modesty also is amazing and its beauty surpass the physical beauty. Sheltering one's body with clothes is a blessing from God and one of His signs, as well. Modesty is God's handiwork too that should be celebrated.
The Qur'an says: O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness – that is best. That is from the signs of Allāh that perhaps they will remember. (A'raaf:26)

I agree with all that, but I still don't understand why the glory of God's handiwork should be private.

Sexist, how? :sarcastic

Well, to a typical American, it seems that women are treated as inferior and the segregation is just an expression of that.

I can't say that men and women should be so segregated in Islam, men and women have to deal with each other in this crowded life normally, but Islam regulates the relationship between the two sexes to be based on qualities like respect and modesty away from the physical and sexual aspects that belong to bedrooms.

I didn't mean sexual relations, but social. Like the man at the community center who couldn't shake my hand.

Who have changed, exactly?

All of us. Society has progressed. I gave several example, which you ignored. (Why is that?) In comparison to slavery and age of consent, clothing trends are ridiculously trivial. So, why does Islam put such import on it?

You seem a bit offended by some of my questions.... May I ask why?

 

[Sahar]

All of us. Society has progressed. I gave several example, which you ignored. (Why is that?)

I am afraid I didn't see examples. You only replied to Peace's comment about modesty saying

I understand that, but why is it the standard now? We've changed.

So I hope that I didn't ignore anything.

In comparison to slavery and age of consent, clothing trends are ridiculously trivial. So, why does Islam put such import on it?

Why not? I already replied to this part in my previous post.

You seem a bit offended by some of my questions.... May I ask why?

LOL! What gave you this impression?

(I aim to comment on your other questions God willing but when I have time.)