Finding excuses to hate Muslims?

[Theweirdtophat]

It is indeed a danger.



There is a whole lot that can be done about dangerous ideas. Refusing to spread them without proper warning. Emphasizing the logical consequences of their goals. Exposing them to ridicule. Protesting against them and denouncing them outright.



I find the reaction to the excesses of Islam both timid and confused for the most part. To the point that it worries me a bit more in and of itself.

Focusing on the fact that the Qur'an can be interpreted in less destructive ways while failing to consider the much more significant fact that a good believer should learn from early on not to allow his or her beliefs to be misguided.

In that sense, Islam is not only dangerous, but also worryingly fragile in some of the worst conceivable ways. It relies way too much on scripture as opposed to wisdom and personal responsibility. Despite the heroic efforts of many, I fear it may be doomed to be forever flawed to the point of disfunctionality.


Hardly. Refusing to feed the expectations that enable those, however, would be very welcome indeed - but alas, it is not at all likely to happen. I'm not sure Islam as a religion can even survive such an effort.




I have no problem denouncing Christian terrorism. It just turns out that there isn't quite so much of it these days.

If that is the case, why are there often naysayers demanding that Muslims do something about it? Every time something involving Muslim terrorists they are always looking at them, as if it is every Muslims duty to drop what they are doing and fight terrorists.

You are providing ideals that are not logical or feasible. Over a billion follow them. Just because you don't agree with it, does not make it a danger. Any faith or lack thereof,it does not matter. A lunatic is still a lunatic no matter how they dress. And if I'm not mistaken, I thought this site was about learning how to get a long with faiths or at least attempt to, not throw around false claims,ridicule them or protesting against them. Am I the only one who notices this error?

You are wasting your energy on someone who was not even the enemy to begin with. Don't you see the patterns? Someone is trying to divide us here. Whites and blacks, Muslims and non-Muslims, someone is trying to use the media to get everyone divided and distracted so they won't know who the real enemy is though.

 

[LuisDantas]

If that is the case, why are there often naysayers demanding that Muslims do something about it?

I don't know what you are complaining about. I expect Muslims to do more about it. Am I naysayer?

 

[Deidre]

People who 'hate' certain groups as a whole, usually don't understand what it is they even 'hate.' Fear and ignorance often breeds 'hate.'

 

[icehorse]

People who 'hate' certain groups as a whole, usually don't understand what it is they even 'hate.' Fear and ignorance often breeds 'hate.'

How about hating certain ideas?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is foolish to attempt to "trust God" over facts and reason.

While that is true, at the same time I can't deny that I've not known a single Muslim who has expressed hatred and aggression towards me, America, or the West in general. They certainly have to put up with a ton of crap for being Muslim, but they tend to not cause any problems for anyone.

 

[LuisDantas]

Fair enough. Same here.

 

[Deidre]

How about hating certain ideas?

Yes, hating ideas is different than hating an entire group of people. The latter is bigotry, really.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I don't know what you are complaining about. I expect Muslims to do more about it. Am I naysayer?

So how can you expect them to do anything when they are already doing something about it? Surely you didn't forget Muslims in Niger, UAE, Jordan ect, have been fighting off these terrorists have you? Or are you referring to other Muslims?

Quite a few do denounce terrorism and just because it isn't reported doesn't mean it happened and just because it was reported also doesn't mean it happened exactly the way it was reported. If anything, the media likes to create news, not report it.

 

[LuisDantas]

So how can you expect them to do anything when they are already doing something about it? Surely you didn't forget Muslims in Niger, UAE, Jordan ect, have been fighting off these terrorists have you? Or are you referring to other Muslims?

No. I just expected more, and most of all, at an entirely different, bolder level.

Insisting that a certain kind of submission to scripture and theistic expectation is more honorable than another is more than a bit self-defeating, and not entirely honorable in my opinion.

Quite a few do denounce terrorism and just because it isn't reported doesn't mean it happened and just because it was reported also doesn't mean it happened exactly the way it was reported. If anything, the media likes to create news, not report it.

It seems to work both ways in this specific subject matter, actually.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I personally think Muslims are being used as scapegoats. They keep showing the terrible things the Muslim fanatics are doing in order to get non muslims riled up, which causes them to go against every Muslim, including the innocent ones. Much like how they love to show white officers beating up blacks, in order to get the races riled it.

This is all just a game now, to get everyone divided.

 

[LuisDantas]

I used to think along similar lines.

Then I researched.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I used to think along similar lines.

Then I researched.

I researched. And experienced it

You can research all you want but sometimes the best way to find out the truth of things. Best way to convince a Muslim basher is to have them actually meet a good Muslim. Sometimes you can show them all the information you want to them, but sometimes the best way to find out the truth is to experience it.

But no, it is a game, whether people want to admit it or not. Someone out there is pulling the strings and just using the Muslims as a scapegoat and have been for years. When you do something bad, you got to find someone that people can blame their problems on right? Well just have them blame muslims and the masses will get of your back and be too distracted to realize who the real enemy is.

Believe me, there are things far worse and there enemies that people have barely heard about but are nonetheless are a threat.

 

[YmirGF]

Believe me, there are things far worse and there enemies that people have barely heard about but are nonetheless are a threat.

It might be helpful if you provided even a short list of what you see as being greater dangers.

 

[blue taylor]

All jihadist are Muslims. No Muslims = No jihadist. No really complicated.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

This is what I seriously don't get. I feel like some people are trying to justify hating Muslims As if that makes sense because you can't justify hatred anyway. People do everything from looking at the news, to pointing out verses in the Quran or looking at history as what some terrible Muslims did

If I look at the news and it's wall-to-wall coverage of Muslim extremists bombing this or that in the name of their religion, then I have to question that religion and may have the expectation that some of the Muslims I come across might share this ideology, in full or in part, and question whether or not they intend on doing harm to me or my loved ones. The extremists aren't pulling their justifications out of thin air. They are reading this from the Quran. There may be more "moderate" Muslims with a more peaceful interpretation of it, and I have little reason to doubt probably a majority of Muslims are fine people. But it is objectively true that in the present day, there are more Muslim extremists than in any other religion. While that's not a justification to hate all Muslims, it IS a justification to criticize and even hate their religion.

First off, those verses were written quite a long time ago, some are taken out of context or not followed the same way and were written by multiple people anyway and the news is not justification because those terrorists make up less than 1% of all Muslims and not all Muslims believe in the same thing.

I'm not sure why you're trying to discredit the extremist Muslim position. What you or I think of the validity of their position is irrelevant. What matters is they believe it enough that they are willing to kill and die for it. I'm not sure where you're getting this 1% figure from either. The fact that not all Muslims believe in the same thing is the precise reason why so many Muslims are killing other Muslims as well as non-Muslims.

Another thing is they keep thinking all Muslims are the same because they read the Quran. What sense does that make? That's like saying all Christians are the same because they read the Bible. There's different version and some Christian interpret verses differently. Otherwise there probably wouldn't be multiple branches within Islam

There's a difference between Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Ahmadiyya Islam, Sufism, Wahhabism, etc. in the same way there are differences between Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, and Presbyterians. Now can you name me a single country where there's sectarian violence between these Christian groups right now? No? Well I can name you quite a few Muslim-majority countries where sectarian violence is a gigantic problem. What you seem to fail to grasp is that the differences between the various branches of Islam is the very reason why many of them are killing each other. And if they are willing to kill fellow Muslims for a slight difference of opinion, what do you suppose their view is of people who are actually non-Muslim? I have a news flash for you: There are followers of all branches of Islam killing each other.

People will look at history but the terrible Muslims that did that are no longer around and that harming the descendants doesn't make sense. Don't punish the descendants for what the ancestors did

Why are you talking about ancestors? My family is Portuguese and Muslims conquered Portugal and Spain 1300 years ago. I don't hold any ill will towards them for it. What I do hold ill will towards are those who are killing innocent people in the name of their religion and right now, that is almost exclusively the domain of Muslim extremists.

And I guess Muslims don't say anything bad about terrorists...except that they do and some are actually fighting against them overseas but I guess that doesn't count right? I mean, I feel like I entered into a topsy turvey dimension here. What happened here? Do people not see what's in front of them or realize there are good Muslims as well as bad?

Yes, I get it. Islamophobia does lead to discrimination against genuinely peaceful Muslims who intend harm on nobody. But some people are understandably sick of whenever there is an atrocity committed, especially against non-Muslims, there is always a politically correct brigade that comes out and doesn't care one bit for the victims of that atrocity and defends Islam. While some moderate Muslims do speak out, I don't think it's any coincidence that their voices aren't exactly loud and clear. And who can blame them? They have a lot at stake. If they say the wrong thing, they can easily end up killed by other "peaceful Muslims".

Every time I do realize there are good Muslims, I'm labeled as a "pro Muslim supporter" and they act as if just because I know there are good Muslims, that must mean I love everything in the Quran and love every Muslim, even the bad ones. For one thing, even though I'm not a Muslim and I am a Druid, and even though there are some things in the Quran I disagree with, I can actually see good things in it and I can see the good Muslims, unlike the others who seem to just watch the news and read two pages of the Quran and come to the conclusion that every Muslim is bad and is a terrorist and that the good Muslims but not only say that the Muslim terrorists are bad, but I guess they want the good Muslims to do something about it, as if they expect every Muslim to drop what they are doing, leave their families and defeat the terrorists.

Nobody comes to the conclusion that "all Muslims are bad" by only reading two pages of the Quran. It might have something to do with all the nonstop killing going on. And no, again, not all Muslims are bad people necessarily, but the majority live in Muslim-majority countries, not the West. These Muslim-majority countries are primarily where the terrorists are operating to the point of destabilizing entire geopolitical regions. If your summation is correct and only 1% of Muslims are terrorists (with 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, that makes for 15 million Islamic terrorists, by the way), why do 99% of Muslims, even with the military might of the West backing them, have such trouble eradicating this terrorism? Either your summation is wrong and the number is much higher, or your "peaceful Muslim majority" doesn't care enough to wipe the terrorists out, even when they outnumber them 100 to 1.

And these bashers will claim they don't hate Muslims and that they hate the idea of Islam, even though they show distrust and dislike of Muslims...and whenever one bad Muslim does something they just say "Well that's the Muslim way," even after saying that they didn't hate every Muslim. What kind logic is this? Anyone notice this?

Considering you've created a strawman, no I haven't noticed this. While I'm sure your intentions are good, I'm growing concerned that you are more preoccupied with the hurt feelings of some Muslims, than their mass slaughter of innocent people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, all over the world. And it is happening precisely because of their ideology.

I'm just sick and tired of all this bashing because these people choose to revel in their ignorance instead of actually getting some experience and getting to know good Muslims, like I have.

Like I said, I have no doubt you have good intentions here. And it is important to realize that not all Muslims have a hivemind and some are perfectly compatible with Western values, being peaceful and secular. However, I find it hard to believe that this discrimination is so pervasive of a problem in the West, considering that it isn't deterring Muslims from immigrating, legally or illegally, to the West. If put into perspective, I'm sure the problem of Islamophobia is also confined to a minority. But that does not invalidate the concerns of those who are worried for the safety of their loved ones because their government may let in someone who is willing to blow himself up for Allah. Or those who rightfully criticize Islam when an interpretation of it is used to justify the killing of innocents. People are getting sick and tired of having to worry about the feelings of a tiny minority when planes are being flown into buildings, subways and buses and airports are being bombed, and even nuclear power plants are targeted. I think we have bigger worries on our plate, I'm sorry to say.

Yeah, I would rather peaceful, innocent Muslims not face discrimination, but if that skepticism and mistrust is going to keep my country safer from people who do not share our values, it's a tiny price to pay.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

If I look at the news and it's wall-to-wall coverage of Muslim extremists bombing this or that in the name of their religion, then I have to question that religion and may have the expectation that some of the Muslims I come across might share this ideology, in full or in part, and question whether or not they intend on doing harm to me or my loved ones. The extremists aren't pulling their justifications out of thin air. They are reading this from the Quran. There may be more "moderate" Muslims with a more peaceful interpretation of it, and I have little reason to doubt probably a majority of Muslims are fine people. But it is objectively true that in the present day, there are more Muslim extremists than in any other religion. While that's not a justification to hate all Muslims, it IS a justification to criticize and even hate their religion.



I'm not sure why you're trying to discredit the extremist Muslim position. What you or I think of the validity of their position is irrelevant. What matters is they believe it enough that they are willing to kill and die for it. I'm not sure where you're getting this 1% figure from either. The fact that not all Muslims believe in the same thing is the precise reason why so many Muslims are killing other Muslims as well as non-Muslims.



There's a difference between Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Ahmadiyya Islam, Sufism, Wahhabism, etc. in the same way there are differences between Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, and Presbyterians. Now can you name me a single country where there's sectarian violence between these Christian groups right now? No? Well I can name you quite a few Muslim-majority countries where sectarian violence is a gigantic problem. What you seem to fail to grasp is that the differences between the various branches of Islam is the very reason why many of them are killing each other. And if they are willing to kill fellow Muslims for a slight difference of opinion, what do you suppose their view is of people who are actually non-Muslim? I have a news flash for you: There are followers of all branches of Islam killing each other.



Why are you talking about ancestors? My family is Portuguese and Muslims conquered Portugal and Spain 1300 years ago. I don't hold any ill will towards them for it. What I do hold ill will towards are those who are killing innocent people in the name of their religion and right now, that is almost exclusively the domain of Muslim extremists.



Yes, I get it. Islamophobia does lead to discrimination against genuinely peaceful Muslims who intend harm on nobody. But some people are understandably sick of whenever there is an atrocity committed, especially against non-Muslims, there is always a politically correct brigade that comes out and doesn't care one bit for the victims of that atrocity and defends Islam. While some moderate Muslims do speak out, I don't think it's any coincidence that their voices aren't exactly loud and clear. And who can blame them? They have a lot at stake. If they say the wrong thing, they can easily end up killed by other "peaceful Muslims".



Nobody comes to the conclusion that "all Muslims are bad" by only reading two pages of the Quran. It might have something to do with all the nonstop killing going on. And no, again, not all Muslims are bad people necessarily, but the majority live in Muslim-majority countries, not the West. These Muslim-majority countries are primarily where the terrorists are operating to the point of destabilizing entire geopolitical regions. If your summation is correct and only 1% of Muslims are terrorists (with 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, that makes for 15 million Islamic terrorists, by the way), why do 99% of Muslims, even with the military might of the West backing them, have such trouble eradicating this terrorism? Either your summation is wrong and the number is much higher, or your "peaceful Muslim majority" doesn't care enough to wipe the terrorists out, even when they outnumber them 100 to 1.



Considering you've created a strawman, no I haven't noticed this. While I'm sure your intentions are good, I'm growing concerned that you are more preoccupied with the hurt feelings of some Muslims, than their mass slaughter of innocent people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, all over the world. And it is happening precisely because of their ideology.



Like I said, I have no doubt you have good intentions here. And it is important to realize that not all Muslims have a hivemind and some are perfectly compatible with Western values, being peaceful and secular. However, I find it hard to believe that this discrimination is so pervasive of a problem in the West, considering that it isn't deterring Muslims from immigrating, legally or illegally, to the West. If put into perspective, I'm sure the problem of Islamophobia is also confined to a minority. But that does not invalidate the concerns of those who are worried for the safety of their loved ones because their government may let in someone who is willing to blow himself up for Allah. Or those who rightfully criticize Islam when an interpretation of it is used to justify the killing of innocents. People are getting sick and tired of having to worry about the feelings of a tiny minority when planes are being flown into buildings, subways and buses and airports are being bombed, and even nuclear power plants are targeted. I think we have bigger worries on our plate, I'm sorry to say.

Yeah, I would rather peaceful, innocent Muslims not face discrimination, but if that skepticism and mistrust is going to keep my country safer from people who do not share our values, it's a tiny price to pay.

You also have to have experience and not just rely on everything you see on the news, which has quite a few exaggerations and even flat out lies. You say they are not all bad but you clearly have mistrust of them. That's the point I was making. I found it weird that people would claim to not despise all Muslims but they act like they do.

Muslims killed Muslims, Christians killed Christians, even Hindus did it to each other even when they were the same branch. Differences in culture, politics ect. can cause conflict even if they believe in the same thing. You also have to realize that the ones over in 3rd world countries do have a lot of problems. But why is that? Why is there a lot of crime. Poverty can breed a lot of crime, but what caused the poverty in the first place? People don't ask themselves that. You see a Muslim do something bad and then you come up with the conclusion that their religion made them that way. If you have a lunatic, it doesn't matter what faith you give them.

Lots of conflict over there isn't just over religious reasons and there are some rules I disagree with in Muslim countries, but they all have differences. Muslims in Saudi Arabia will not be the same as the ones in Kazakhstan.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

You also have to have experience and not just rely on everything you see on the news, which has quite a few exaggerations and even flat out lies. You say they are not all bad but you clearly have mistrust of them. That's the point I was making. I found it weird that people would claim to not despise all Muslims but they act like they do.

While different news outlets may cover stories differently depending on their particular political slant, the stories themselves are actual events that have happened. I can go through the news and see a suicide bombing or atrocity somewhere in the Muslim-majority world. How news outlets cover them is irrelevant. Those events actually happened. And they're religiously motivated. Right now Iran and Saudi Arabia are fighting a proxy war in Syria and Iraq which is a battle between Sunni and Shia Muslims. Are you really under the misapprehension that only a tiny, insignificant minority? It's not. Advocating for immigration policies that keep such people out of the West and endorsing healthy skepticism of those we admit to the West is not hatred of Muslims. It's common sense.

Muslims killed Muslims, Christians killed Christians, even Hindus did it to each other even when they were the same branch. Differences in culture, politics ect. can cause conflict even if they believe in the same thing. You also have to realize that the ones over in 3rd world countries do have a lot of problems. But why is that? Why is there a lot of crime. Poverty can breed a lot of crime, but what caused the poverty in the first place? People don't ask themselves that. You see a Muslim do something bad and then you come up with the conclusion that their religion made them that way. If you have a lunatic, it doesn't matter what faith you give them.

Can you name me any incidents in the world right now where Christians are killing Christians or Hindus are killing Hindus specifically because of religion? You probably can't. And if you can, it's likely one or two outlier incidents. To equivocate the level of hatred between Sunnis and Shias right now to the level of violence within other religions is pure delusion. There is no comparison. Muslims are objectively more violent towards themselves and towards others right now than any other religion. When someone says they want to blow themselves up for their religion, then yes, it is logical to conclude that their religion is the cause of it. It is also logical to treat others who claim to hold the same ideology with suspicion until they are confirmed to not be a threat to life and limb. If you are insinuating that people only commit atrocities because of mental illness, not because of being indoctrinated in a violent ideology, then you are saying that you believe a good portion of Muslims are mentally ill.

Lots of conflict over there isn't just over religious reasons and there are some rules I disagree with in Muslim countries, but they all have differences. Muslims in Saudi Arabia will not be the same as the ones in Kazakhstan.

No, there are political reasons as well. Those political reasons have to do with theocracy and imperialism, other ideologies that I dislike almost as much as Islam. I know peaceful and secular Muslims. I take no issue with those people's interpretation of their faith. I do take issue with a significant portion of Muslims who are committing violence in the name of their religion.

 

[RRex]

I will be perfectly honest - I find it very, VERY hard to like Muslims.

Why?

Their extremist elements are lobbing off heads and treating women very badly, and I do not hear much positive news coming from "non-violent Muslims" in condemning this behavior.

IMHO, "non-violent Muslims" are not trying hard enough to suppress and/or control these extremist elements.

 

[blue taylor]

I will be perfectly honest - I find it very, VERY hard to like Muslims.

Why?

Their extremist elements are lobbing off heads and treating women very badly, and I do not hear much positive news coming from "non-violent Muslims" in condemning this behavior.

IMHO, "non-violent Muslims" are not trying hard enough to suppress and/or control these extremist elements.

They are doing nothing about "this behavior". It is against the teachings of Islam to do so.

 

[Quagmire]

I will be perfectly honest - I find it very, VERY hard to like Muslims.

Why?

Their extremist elements are lobbing off heads and treating women very badly, and I do not hear much positive news coming from "non-violent Muslims" in condemning this behavior.

IMHO, "non-violent Muslims" are not trying hard enough to suppress and/or control these extremist elements.

They are doing nothing about "this behavior". It is against the teachings of Islam to do so.

Yeah, there's a lot of this kind of gossip going around these days, usually by people who've never bothered to look into it.

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...lims+speaking+out+against+extremist+violaence