Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
I wasn't actually asking you but, since you have injected yourself into this discussion, which part of modern society is not virulent?
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Finding excuses to hate Muslims?
- Thread starter Theweirdtophat
- Start date
I wasn't actually asking you but, since you have injected yourself into this discussion, which part of modern society is not virulent?
That is a very vague, loaded question.
I take it that you mean to imply that there is something wrong with "modern society" that you think might be healed... somehow?
As in "hoping and arguably planning to acquire political power everywhere, because quite a few of them are convinced that God Wants So".
For one thing, there are strict rules about the rights of men over women.
There is a worrying lack of care to remind themselves that Israel is not the devil's cauldron of evil among many Muslims. How much of a minority are you willing to ignore exactly?
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Would you let the person I asked answer my question. This quite clearly doesn't involve you. And maybe you should scroll back through your messages and answer my questions directed at you.
Thanks.
Is it not the case that Islam teaches Muslims that they are closer to God than non-believers?
Is it not the case that Islam teaches Muslims that men are superior to women?
Is it not the case that Muslims have largely taken over the ME, largely driving away non-believers of all denominations, and yet they cannot let the Jews have one little tiny sliver of land?
Why would you not want to hear other's answers?
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
Way to not answer the question.
I think there is no need to avoid the question. It is proper and legitimate.
And I will judge for myself what concerns me, thank you very much. Spare yourself the trouble of pretending otherwise in the future. It would be wasteful.
I believe that the Qur'aan is Perfect and the Word of Allaah. I believe no such thing about the Ahaadeeth. Some are authentic (and an important source of guidance), some not. Many of them have been corrupted.
That is a very common belief, isn't it?
It seems to me that at least 99.9% of all Muslims believe the Qur'an to be entirely trustworthy while also mistrusting at least some Ahadith.
That does not surprise me at all. It is a logical enough belief.
But I think it has become too convenient a belief as well. Ahadith can't fairly be blamed for the very basic, unavoidable religious duty of being reasonable, thinking people in the first place, regardless of any scripture or their assumed degrees of perfection and/or invulnerability to misinterpretation.
Truth is, there is no scripture that can't be abused. The Qur'an is by no means an exception. It is unfortunate that the Ahadith so often take the blame for it.
Oh I believe the Qur'aan can be abused, that's a big part of the problem..
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Ok, let me answer all three questions, they are pretty basic so won't take much time.
Yes, Islam does teach that muslims are closer to God than non-muslims but that those muslims still have to be practicing. What is the problem with that? Especially considering that your an atheist so you don't even believe in God. That does not mean we are allowed to treat non-muslims worse and in fact, there are laws against such things in Islamic teachings.
Second answer, no. It's quite simple. Nowhere in Islam does it teach that men are superior to women in general. The Quran states that men are superior in some instances and women are superior in other instances. Under the eyes of the law, both are equal but the roles are different because of the different attributes that we have as men and women.
And finally no, non-muslims have not been driven out of the ME. When did this happen? The vast majority of muslims in the ME are there as a result of voluntary conversion many centuries ago. Throughout history, we find examples of the majority of muslim leaders, from the time of the 4 Caliph on wards, especially those who were stringent adherents to Islam and understood the faith and example of prophet Muhammad PBUH, having benefited non-Mulslim populations.
For example, Christian and Jewish chroniclers from the time of Salahadin speak of how the majority of the jewish population staid behind in jerusalem and when they were asked why, they stated that they would find more justice under muslim rule than christian rule. We find that the golden age of Jewish culture and society in europe occurred under muslim rule in Spain. We also find that one of the chiefs of medicine in a hospital in Damascus was a christian. We find years and years of free exchange of ideas and people from all cultures throughout the muslim empire.
If we want to talk about the modern day, there are more muslims being killed in the ME than non-muslims.
The Israeli issue isn't just a muslim/jewish issue but a humanitarian issue. If you can not see the horrendous inhumane acts by the israeli government and people, then there must be something wrong with you.
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Because I asked you the question considering you replied to me.
Plus that poster is a simple instigator and never has a discussion but rather enjoys simply putting forward his own opinions and nothing else. I've tried having many discussions with him and he ignores any point I make and has done so for a long time. There is no point in me discussing anything any further with him.
TC said:
From a modern or secular perspective Islam does NOT consider women to be "equal with different roles". From Afghanistan, to Pakistan, to most of the ME, to northern Africa, Muslim women are all too frequently treated as second class citizens by Muslim men. Spousal abuse, rape, honor killings, FGM, denial of education, denial of other rights granted to men, the list goes on and on.
TC said:
This is just revisionist history. It is absurd to deny this. Throughout the ME churches and synagogues are destroyed as a matter of course, and in many ME countries, populations of Christians and Jews have dwindled substantially in recent years. Israel itself has taken in multitudes of refugees.
TC said:
I believe you're correct. And while that points to another problem with Islam, it is tangential to how Muslims treat non-believers.
TC said:
This is obviously a complex topic, but in brief, we should agree to disagree on this point. If you want to start a separate thread, I'll debate you there.
One thing I will ask you is this: Why are there so many hundreds of thousands of 2nd and 3rd generation "Palestinian" refugees spread throughout the ME, in places like Jordan? Why haven't the Muslims in the ME been more charitable to their Muslim Palestinian brothers? ME Muslims have had 65 years to let these Palestinian refugees immigrate, but they have not. Why not?
From a modern or secular perspective Islam does NOT consider women to be "equal with different roles". From Afghanistan, to Pakistan, to most of the ME, to northern Africa, Muslim women are all too frequently treated as second class citizens by Muslim men. Spousal abuse, rape, honor killings, FGM, denial of education, denial of other rights granted to men, the list goes on and on.
TC said:
This is just revisionist history. It is absurd to deny this. Throughout the ME churches and synagogues are destroyed as a matter of course, and in many ME countries, populations of Christians and Jews have dwindled substantially in recent years. Israel itself has taken in multitudes of refugees.
TC said:
I believe you're correct. And while that points to another problem with Islam, it is tangential to how Muslims treat non-believers.
TC said:
This is obviously a complex topic, but in brief, we should agree to disagree on this point. If you want to start a separate thread, I'll debate you there.
One thing I will ask you is this: Why are there so many hundreds of thousands of 2nd and 3rd generation "Palestinian" refugees spread throughout the ME, in places like Jordan? Why haven't the Muslims in the ME been more charitable to their Muslim Palestinian brothers? ME Muslims have had 65 years to let these Palestinian refugees immigrate, but they have not. Why not?
Scott C.
Just one guy
I agree with you. But, I would like to see valid statistics on Muslim attitudes towards terrorism against the United States. (I'm concerned about all nations but for these purposes, I'll stick with the U.S.A.)
I want the stats broken down by:
1. Muslim U.S. citizens.
2. Muslims who live legally in the U.S. as non-citizens.
3. Muslims who are citizens of non-Muslim dominated countries (not the U.S).
4. Muslims who are citizens of countries governed by Islam.
For each of the four groups above, which of the following most closely reflects your attitude towards terrorism against the U.S.?
A. I believe in such terrorism, I want to see more of it, and I'm willing to participate myself. This is the will of Allah.
B. I would not participate, but I want to see it happen. It will help to support the cause of Islam and world justice.
C. I agree with the cause of the terrorists. But I don't support terrorism as a means to that end. It's morally wrong and against the will of Allah.
D. I abhor terrorism and would take up arms to defend the U.S. Terrorists are a disgrace to my religion and are infidel's themselves. Allah will condemn them to hell.
E. I'm not educated and don't know what's happening in the broader world. I therefore have no opinion. What is the U.S.A.?
I'm not a statistician so don't pick at the questions. You should get the idea of what I want. The perceptions of U.S. citizens on these issues are all over the map.
Don't get me wrong. I believe that less than 0.1% of those from groups 1 and 2 would respond with A or B. It's very unclear where those from groups 3 and 4 would fall. What is the truth?
blue taylor
Active Member
Who decides which Haadeeth are authentic and which are not. And why are Quranist considered heretics by other Muslims?
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
From a secular perspective? You don't have a clue. You are stating "such and such country has done such things" but I'm talking about Islam. What the Quran teaches and what Prophet Muhammad PBUH taught. What has Afghanistan got to do with Islam as a religion. There are many muslims there but many of them may not even understand the religion. In the UK, a journalist by the name of Yvonne Ridley converted to Islam for that very reason, she saw how women were treated in Afghanistan, reported on it but then studied the Quran and found the exact opposite. Now she's a muslim.
There is a difference between what a religion preaches, in this case Islam and what people may preach but if you go to the source, you find the truth. There is a reason why more women convert to Islam then men...are there hordes of Muslim men rampaging through the streets of europe converting women? No. So what is making thousands of women convert to Islam? These women are supposedly free in a secular society, they aren't forced into anything and yet they choose Islam, an oppressive, in your view, ideology for them. The simple answer is, it clearly isn't.
Second point, churches and synagogues are destroyed as a matter of course? Really? Were is this happening, again more mosques have been destroyed, especially by RAF, USAF and so on aircraft. And you state the Jewish/Christian population of the ME has dwindled in recent years, my man, there has only been a tiny proportion of the population for close to a 1000 years who have been christian or jew, they haven't gone anywhere because there havent been that many.
In fact and this is the most important point, I hope you take it on board, the Jewish population in the ME has increased in recent years, not decreased.
Oh, and there was no revisionist history, it would help you if you actually read up on such issue rather than letting your hate guide you.
And if you wish to skate away from the Israeli issue I'm fine with that. You brought it up now you want to move away from it because you know you have no winnable position on that.
I'm also glad you did not reply to my first answer, you clearly were not in a position to go anywhere on it.
Oh how I love when people teach (very wrongly) Muslims their religion and what Quran says to justify their hate towards them.
1) It's logical that people who believe in God are closer to Him than those who don't believe in Him
2) Islam teaches that women are equal to men in law & in some cases men are superior in some cases women are superior, Islam was the reason women got their rights in Arabia in the time of the Prophet ﷺ
3)This is absolute nonsense, Middle East is dominated by Islam because Islam was revealed there. And issue with Israel is more political if you ask me
Your argument is really stupid, in every single country there is spousal abuse, rape, killings (hint: India). Denial of education, denial of rights, etc. - that's politics, not Islam. If you read Quran you'd see that it's expected for women to have education and if she refuses it's a sin. Those same questions can be applied to either Jews or Christians, why don't they help their poor people, etc.? Because humans aren't perfect and there many who are greedy and simply refer (mostly incorrect) to their religion only when they can gain something.
1) It's logical that people who believe in God are closer to Him than those who don't believe in Him
2) Islam teaches that women are equal to men in law & in some cases men are superior in some cases women are superior, Islam was the reason women got their rights in Arabia in the time of the Prophet ﷺ
3)This is absolute nonsense, Middle East is dominated by Islam because Islam was revealed there. And issue with Israel is more political if you ask me
Your argument is really stupid, in every single country there is spousal abuse, rape, killings (hint: India). Denial of education, denial of rights, etc. - that's politics, not Islam. If you read Quran you'd see that it's expected for women to have education and if she refuses it's a sin. Those same questions can be applied to either Jews or Christians, why don't they help their poor people, etc.? Because humans aren't perfect and there many who are greedy and simply refer (mostly incorrect) to their religion only when they can gain something.
TC -
Okay, so you're one of the "Islam is in the scriptures" sort of Muslim. Fair enough, some Muslims take that route and others take the "Islam is in the behaviors of Muslims route". I hope you're not one of the "I'll choose either definition in the moment, as it suits my argument" sort of Muslim.
The Quran teaches that the husband can basically rape his wife at will. The Quran teaches how inheritances are to be divided in favor of men. The Quran teaches how a man can have many wives, and how to handle that. That's just off the top of my head. Muhammad, teaches us that even though he claimed to be creating a timeless religion, he was okay to marry a young girl, not even 10.
As for the decline of Christians in the ME, there are many sources for this information, I found this one with about a minute on google:
http://us.icej.org/tragic-decline-middle-east-christianity
My hate? I don't have any hate. I have criticisms and I have concerns.
Which question of yours did I skip? It wasn't intentional. Is it about Muslims being closer to God? If that's the one, can't you see how that has historically led to supremacist-driven conquest and "us vs. them" thinking? You say you're not allowed to treat non-Muslims badly, but Muslims murdered about 80 MILLION Hindus over the course of centuries.. because they were Hindus!
As for Israel, we can jump in if you want to - you can start by answering my question about why Muslims don't act charitably towards Palestinians? Isn't charity supposed to be one of Islam's best qualities?
Okay, so you're one of the "Islam is in the scriptures" sort of Muslim. Fair enough, some Muslims take that route and others take the "Islam is in the behaviors of Muslims route". I hope you're not one of the "I'll choose either definition in the moment, as it suits my argument" sort of Muslim.
The Quran teaches that the husband can basically rape his wife at will. The Quran teaches how inheritances are to be divided in favor of men. The Quran teaches how a man can have many wives, and how to handle that. That's just off the top of my head. Muhammad, teaches us that even though he claimed to be creating a timeless religion, he was okay to marry a young girl, not even 10.
As for the decline of Christians in the ME, there are many sources for this information, I found this one with about a minute on google:
http://us.icej.org/tragic-decline-middle-east-christianity
My hate? I don't have any hate. I have criticisms and I have concerns.
Which question of yours did I skip? It wasn't intentional. Is it about Muslims being closer to God? If that's the one, can't you see how that has historically led to supremacist-driven conquest and "us vs. them" thinking? You say you're not allowed to treat non-Muslims badly, but Muslims murdered about 80 MILLION Hindus over the course of centuries.. because they were Hindus!
As for Israel, we can jump in if you want to - you can start by answering my question about why Muslims don't act charitably towards Palestinians? Isn't charity supposed to be one of Islam's best qualities?
Raahim,
I'm not trying to teach Muslims about Islam. I am trying to criticize Islam, because IMO it's seriously flawed.
It might be "logical" for Muslims to be taught that they're closer to God, but it's not a peaceful idea, and there are other religions that don't teach that dangerous idea. Women are equal to men except when it comes to marital rape, polygamy, imbalanced inheritance laws, and more. As for Islam being revealed in the ME, weren't Judaism and Christianity also revealed there? Now you are correct that misogyny exists outside of Islam. Yes, it is everywhere. It's just that it tends to be even worse in Muslim majority countries.
I'm not trying to teach Muslims about Islam. I am trying to criticize Islam, because IMO it's seriously flawed.
It might be "logical" for Muslims to be taught that they're closer to God, but it's not a peaceful idea, and there are other religions that don't teach that dangerous idea. Women are equal to men except when it comes to marital rape, polygamy, imbalanced inheritance laws, and more. As for Islam being revealed in the ME, weren't Judaism and Christianity also revealed there? Now you are correct that misogyny exists outside of Islam. Yes, it is everywhere. It's just that it tends to be even worse in Muslim majority countries.