Finding the religion without

[Unveiled Artist]

In different ways, we advocate that the best way to find religion is within. The consesus is that we cannot depent on external means to find spirituality. In some views, external means are a stepping stone for eternal internal..

I do believe that one can live their spirituality by external means and it will be the same as internal, why not?

I only know a handful of religions.

Christianity uses external means to know god. They use the bible. Many if not all say that without thr bible, how can they know Christ. Their relationship with christ depends on the words about him and the Word himseld.

Strip the bible from a christian more so Church from a Lutheran, Epis, Cath,JW, etc what do you have left?

Buddhism has external means of finding inward liberation. Most of this is found in culture and the different methods the way countries and their schools practice. Take out these external means: meditation, prayer, chanting, etc what do you have left.

There is an importance of religion without (instead of religion within). Why do we see external things and some even people not important or part of the core of our spiritual health?

Im not saying that you should bow down to your bible or cling tonyour attachments. Just saying why do people exclude external things as not being one of the many cores of their faith?

How do you find the religion within without balancing it with the religion without?

 

[allfoak]

If one accepts as i do that religion is turning matter into spirit, then i would say there can be no separation.

 

[ThirtyThree]

I believe that not having a solid foundation on which to build personal beliefs on is a one way ticket to confusion and even insanity. When things break, who does the creator of the religion turn to? What book? They have no one and none. They have to fix the break themselves, often resulting in insanity like Scientology. That or they begin to talk about little gray alien mind snatchers who preprogram evil in people, and start making things up just to escape the fact their religion is a flawed mess.

For me, I have no holy book or human illumined master. I take a huge risk in building my religion from scratch, just based on what my deity teaches me. I just have to remember not to fill in any blanks just to fill them in. I need to be sure I never just make things up. Do I still run the risk of the weird person who thinks aliens want their brain or advanced robot parasites program evil? Yes! That is the deadly problem. I constantly must make sure everything I wrote into this religion IS directly inspired by my deity.

The Athiest would say, I am following a figment of my imagination. I obviously disagree. However, that does not mean I could not end up in that position, surrounded by lies, lost in my own bull plop.

This is why I sincerely believe that exterior systems are needed. It is so difficult to build from nothing but the inspirations of those one can not see with their physical eyes or hear with their physical ears. My advice is, find a holy book, a credible guru, even a long standing order. Learn all you can from any of these and then go build on that. If you join the OTO, for example, go as high as you can go and then break off to expand, or remain and expand there if you can.

Even Free Masonry is a viable option for many. These orders teach basics and have history. They will give you a solid foundation, just like Christianity, Islam or Judaism. Just like many traditions and religions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If one accepts as i do that religion is turning matter into spirit, then i would say there can be no separation.

What if one turns spirit into matter? Do you feel they can get the same result or does it always point to the spirit first as a foundation?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe that not having a solid foundation on which to build personal beliefs on is a one way ticket to confusion and even insanity. When things break, who does the creator of the religion turn to? What book? They have no one and none. They have to fix the break themselves, often resulting in insanity like Scientology. That or they begin to talk about little gray alien mind snatchers who preprogram evil in people, and start making things up just to escape the fact their religion is a flawed mess.

For me, I have no holy book or human illumined master. I take a huge risk in building my religion from scratch, just based on what my deity teaches me. I just have to remember not to fill in any blanks just to fill them in. I need to be sure I never just make things up. Do I still run the risk of the weird person who thinks aliens want their brain or advanced robot parasites program evil? Yes! That is the deadly problem. I constantly must make sure everything I wrote into this religion IS directly inspired by my deity.

The Athiest would say, I am following a figment of my imagination. I obviously disagree. However, that does not mean I could not end up in that position, surrounded by lies, lost in my own bull plop.

This is why I sincerely believe that exterior systems are needed. It is so difficult to build from nothing but the inspirations of those one can not see with their physical eyes or hear with their physical ears. My advice is, find a holy book, a credible guru, even a long standing order. Learn all you can from any of these and then go build on that. If you join the OTO, for example, go as high as you can go and then break off to expand, or remain and expand there if you can.

Even Free Masonry is a viable option for many. These orders teach basics and have history. They will give you a solid foundation, just like Christianity, Islam or Judaism. Just like many traditions and religions.

Once you have a foundation, do you stay with it or do you move on?

 

[ThirtyThree]

Once you have a foundation, do you stay with it or do you move on?

You build on it. Consider religions like an unfinished pyramid. In some cases, one just had a foundation. In others, one might have some height built of stones. Does the capstone look anything like the stones below it? Is it even attached or is it greater than the whole of the pyramid itself?

This is how I view the idea that an Adept can only become a Master by building on the existing teachings of the order they were initiated in. It is about building the personal pyramid and by doing, improving that of the Order, not shattering the Order and walking off with all of its teachings like some type of pirate. That is, a pirate who changes nothing but instead just steals the name or teachings and membership, claiming it all their own, having done nothing to be worthy of it. That is, unless an Order is so damaged , as if the foundation itself is crumbling into sand, and it screams out to be destroyed and reformed, one should be able to remain an Initiate and improve the Order from the inside out.

 

[allfoak]

What if one turns spirit into matter? Do you feel they can get the same result or does it always point to the spirit first as a foundation?

We do that everyday, judge for yourself if we should be doing it without the proper foundation.
I think the results speak for themselves.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We do that everyday, judge for yourself if we should be doing it without the proper foundation.
I think the results speak for themselves.

In other words, do you personally feel it could work "the same" as using material foundation for spiritual?

Ive see peoples faiths grow from material needs as a foundation and part of their spiritual needs. Not many people hold material foundation as important (not just a foundation) as spiritual.

If anything, if its not spiritual, its cant be part of (not foundation of) spiritual growth and practice.

Do you fe this way?

 

[allfoak]

In other words, do you personally feel it could work "the same" as using material foundation for spiritual?

I would say not but i think i am misunderstanding you.
What do you mean by a material foundation?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would say not but i think i am misunderstanding you.
What do you mean by a material foundation?

Like majority of people of all faiths Ive seen here say that one must look within themselves for answers and not to, one example, religion while others say to logic.

They are basically, even though interconnected, saying that what we find within (gut feeling) is what we trust first.

I posed the opposite. Can we have the same spiritual conclusion of looking outside ourselves to find what is within ourselves?

I see some indirect examples of this. Catholicism focus on Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. The physical hosts of bread and wine becoming Jesus Christ is more important (lack of better words/LBW) than the protestant's view that Jesus is in the heart without material things.

Do you think that looking outside ourselves can lead to the same spiritual growth as those who look within themselves to do the same?

Why or why not?

 

[allfoak]

I posed the opposite. Can we have the same spiritual conclusion of looking outside ourselves to find what is within ourselves?

All opposites are true.

The All is in All.
There is no place to look that you will not find the All.
The key is to apply all that you see to yourself.

 

[buddhist]

IMO external rites and rituals are merely but supports - essential, but still just supports - for the young in spirit to grow in spiritual strength. The importance and need for external supports gradually fades away as one grows in spiritual maturity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

IMO external rites and rituals are merely but supports - essential, but still just supports - for the young in spirit to grow in spiritual strength. The importance and need for external supports gradually fades away as one grows in spiritual maturity.

You don't feel that they can find spiritual maturity the other way around?

 

[buddhist]

You don't feel that they can find spiritual maturity the other way around?

I suppose it depends on your definition of "spiritual maturity".

IMO the degree one depends on external factors is also the degree one identifies those things as part of his own "self". This means that he and his behavior becomes exceedingly subject to the winds of change in his external world - that is not my definition of "spiritual maturity".