• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

First cause of the universe.

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No, in the science one does not even take a concept into consideration unless there is at least some indication of it. There is no observation that I now of that supports a deity.

What observation supports a deity? If you can't think of one God is not in the equation.

Well, I recall one scientist who believed that the universe would have to adhere to the beauty of mathematics and reductionism. That is in effect a form of ontological idealism, yet not religious.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Hit me. You can properly find a better example of explain it, that I can, so if you don't mind. :)


This is an old, popular article by David Mermin. it goes over the basic logic and the observational results. It is well worth reading and thinking about. Anyone is invited to find a 'hidden variable' explanation and it is then shown that no such explanation is possible.

http://web.pdx.edu/~pmoeck/lectures/Mermin longer.pdf

it should be pointed out that the Aspect experiment is only one in a long line of experiments and observations showing similar results. The Mermin paper looks at one particular example where the logic is fairly straightforward. More general results rely on Bell's inequalities (and there are versions of those that deal with time as well).
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, I recall one scientist who believed that the universe would have to adhere to the beauty of mathematics and reductionism. That is in effect a form of ontological idealism, yet not religious.


Dirac was famous for this position.

It is certainly true that humans like 'simple beautiful' explanations if they are available.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
None of those are logical except a conscious deity

They are all logically possible candidate hypotheses as long as none can be ruled in or out. You choose to disregard the ones that contradict your religious beliefs. Other who are not constrained to do that have not.

You need to toss out the multi verse because it's not an explanation at all, just the opposite.

I'm not tossing any of them out. Also, having explanatory power is not a factor for you, nor for me. The god hypotheses explains nothing more than any of the logical alternatives. I've already explained why it is the least appealing of the possibilities simply for its violation of parsimony. Naturalistic possibilities are always preferred to supernaturalistic ones because the latter require a conscious agent.

Show me an uncaused cause. Show me something that has no beginning. You are still invoking the miraculous, apparently you just can't see that.

Your preferred hypothesis assumes an entity with no beginning.

Furthermore, pure reason tells us that because there is something rather than nothing, that either something has always existed or something came into existence uncaused. No miracles are necessary for that to be the case.

Regarding what others can and cannot see, you are the one viewing the world through a faith-based confirmation bias that assumes that a god exists and allows one to see nothing that contradicts that. Isn't that why all of these other possibilities offend you? To you, they are ridiculous, but not the one you've chosen. That predictable, but not persuasive.

Do hidden properties determine the outcomes, so that they only appear random to us?

No.

This is a whole chapter in physics. This is a discussion that goes back to Einstein, who could not wrap his head around quantum indeterminacy, and who famously dismissed a probabilistic description of reality as being complete by uttering, "God doesn't play dice with the universe"

"Bell's theorem is a term encompassing a number of closely-related results in physics, all of which determine that quantum mechanics is incompatible with local hidden-variable theories"

Too many unknowns to make that claim.

That's a bold comment coming from a lay person to a person with a comprehensive knowledge of the subject. Do you not see that what is unknown to you need not be unknown to others? You and I have discussed this before. If you want to suggest that if something is unknown to you that it is unknown, you need to have and demonstrate comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of the subject. The person you are disagreeing with has. And you attempt to impeach his contradictory opinion by fiat as you did the origins hypotheses you didn't like.

I would refer you to the concept of ethos in the philosophy of argumentation. The term refers to the meta-message a speaker or writer sends his audience in addition to the explicit meaning of his argument, such as does he seem knowledgeable, does he seem sincere, does he seem credible, does he seem trustworthy, does he show good judgment, does he seem to have a hidden agenda, is he more interested in convincing with impartial argument or persuading with emotive language or specious argumentation, and the like. You simply lack standing in discussions with others whose ethos suggests competence and sincerity (good faith disputation) in that discussion, as do we all who have not gotten the same education in physics.

You could avoid all of this by simply recognizing that you believe what you do by faith, not reason or knowledge, say so, and stop trying to argue indefensible positions with people who know and can demonstrate to others that you are incorrect, even if you can't see that. Who's going to argue with that position? You'll still have no persuasive power, but your ethos will rise in the other areas - sincerity, good faith, a more realistic assessment of self.

And you give up nothing. It is already understood that your position is faith-based whether you say so or argue as if it were reasoned. You're using arguments that convince nobody of anything except that you can't see what they do and don't realize that what you can't imagine isn't anybody else's standard for what is real or possible.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I disagree.

Wheter or not the universe has "always" existed, depends simply on wheter or not there was ever a point in time when the universe didn't exist.

If no such point exists, then it is absolutely correct to say that the universe has "always" existed.

Since "always" = "for all of time".
Whenever there was "time", there was a universe. Isn't the case?
If you think that isn't the case, then please point out a moment in time where time existed while the universe did not.


Fair enough, any point at which the universe did not exist, would be a point beyond or without time and space.

That’s the reason Hawking argued that it makes no sense to talk about a time “before” the Big Bang, because such a time, if we even call it time, could not possibly have any causal effect on anything within our universe.

So in that sense, you are right to argue that the universe has always existed, even if it isn’t infinite, and even if it had a beginning; which is somewhat of a neat paradox, albeit one which hinges on semantics (what we mean by “always”).

Happy birthday btw.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Dirac was famous for this position.

It is certainly true that humans like 'simple beautiful' explanations if they are available.


“If one is working from the point of view of getting beauty into one’s equations, one is on a sure line of progress.”

“God is a mathematician of the very highest order, and he used advanced mathematics in constructing the universe.”

-Paul Dirac, exhibiting the sensibilities of a poet.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
“If one is working from the point of view of getting beauty into one’s equations, one is on a sure line of progress.”

“God is a mathematician of the very highest order, and he used advanced mathematics in constructing the universe.”

-Paul Dirac, exhibiting the sensibilities of a poet.

It is a separate question whether Dirac was correct about his opinions here.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
True. For example, if we allow for faster than light travel, we might be able to regain some variants of hidden variable theories. But that produces a host of other issues, including time travel and reverse causality.

Based on what we know and have observed, local hidden variable theories have been excluded. To insist on causality in this context when there are perfectly good scientific models is a bit unusual, it seems.

This is doubled by the lack of a precise notion of causality: what does it mean for one event to cause another in general?
Science is starting to look pretty useless for explaining reality.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
No, in the science one does not even take a concept into consideration unless there is at least some indication of it. There is no observation that I now of that supports a deity.

What observation supports a deity? If you can't think of one God is not in the equation.
The very thing you all are trying to claim contradicts commonly understand physics supports an unknown variable... quantum physics.
Perhaps that variable is an unseen entity changing what we think is the norm.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Furthermore, pure reason tells us that because there is something rather than nothing, that either something has always existed or something came into existence uncaused. No miracles are necessary for that to be the case.
Lol, seriously? It's contrary to everything we see in science. You have to go outside science to explain something from nothing.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The very thing you all are trying to claim contradicts commonly understand physics supports an unknown variable... quantum physics.
Perhaps that variable is an unseen entity changing what we think is the norm.
What are you talking about? I dion't understand what point that you are trying to make.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
It is a separate question whether Dirac was correct about his opinions here.


Yeah, sure. I butted in on a tangent.

But your observation about Dirac reminded me that is an aesthetic element to his vision of the natural world, which I find intriguing. It chimes with the lines from John Keats,
“Beauty is truth, truth beauty. That is all
Ye know on earth - and all you need to know.”

There are many strata of truth in that, I think.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Lol, seriously? It's contrary to everything we see in science. You have to go outside science to explain something from nothing.

I guess what I wrote to you earlier about ethos had no impact. I'm trying to be friendly and respectful here, but perhaps I need to be a little more frank: uninformed opinions have zero persuasive power. You have no standing to be making these arguments in the manner you do. Questions, yes. Opinions humbly stated, yes. But scoffing and continually expressing incredulity when your science is rudimentary, no. If you feel that you are being underestimated, perhaps you can explain why.

You are wrong about what has been seen by scientists and what is contrary to science, just as you were wrong about hidden variables (did you look at the material about Einstein and Bell's theorem?), and about order not arising from chaos (did you look at the material about dissipative structures?), and that the spontaneous generation of life from nonlife has been ruled out (it's being worked out now).

Unfortunately, you addressed none of those rebuttals, but continue asserting competence and authority by making more erroneous scientific pronouncements anyway. Why do you think that you are qualified to discuss science in that manner? Did you get the idea somewhere that you have a good education in science, good enough to argue with people with advanced degrees and careers in the sciences? Like I said, I don't mean to be disrespectful to you, but aren't you being that with such people when you imply parity for your relatively uninformed opinions?
 
Top