First Cause

[metis]

This is because they work in a multiverse model. There still would be no cause or effect before the multiverse though.

You're likely correct, and this is one big reason why most cosmologists today do believe that we are likely a part of a multiverse.

 

[Polymath257]

\Because we can observe it. We can see more distant galaxies moving away at ever increasing velocities as we look further and further away. And from my understanding the expansion of the universe is a byproduct of relativity. The current measured rate is 71.9 kilometers per per second per megaparsec:

The Universe Is Expanding Surprisingly Fast

You say this can't happen. What is your evidence besides your say so?

I do not accept your unsupported and very possibly incorrect interpretation of relativity. The physicists that accept the expansion of the universe probably understand the topic far better than you or I. I will go with those that work in the field and understand relativity rather than some random poster on a forum. You seem to be misinterpreting the theory.

OK, some care is required in this discussion.

What we observe is the expansion of *space*. As we go forward in time, space expands.

What @viole is getting at is that *spacetime* does not expand. Spacetime is the 4-dimensional structure of all of space and all of time as one geometric entity. It doesn't expand; it just is.

One way to think of this is by analogy: think of the surface of the Earth as being spacetime with latitude lines representing space and longitude lines as time axes.

As we go forward in 'time' from the 'singularity' at the south pole, 'space' expands (the latitude lines get longer) until we reach the equator, at which point 'space' begins to contract until another 'singularity' at the north pole.

In this, *space* expands. But *spacetime* does not. Spacetime is the whole Earth taken as a single geometric entity. Time is a part of it.

And @viole is correct, this is the perspective of general relativity.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

God (presumably) and the singularity were present before the universe. There is no cause and effect before the universe. At best we could say they were together in the singularity.

Can a cause cause an effect, without there being time in which to allow a sequence of events? As far as we can tell, time itself, as we know it, is a manifestation of the universe..

An apparent paradox, yet here we are! There is a solution somehow. But there is another problem; the infinite regression of cause and effect required to explain itself- Creative intelligence is the only phenomena we know of that can solve this, truly create something that does not depend on a specific cause and effect

 

[Polymath257]

You're likely correct, and this is one big reason why most cosmologists today do believe that we are likely a part of a multiverse.

More relevant is that multiverse models arise naturally from attempts to merge quantum mechanics and gravity.

 

[Polymath257]

Where does the Big Bang fit into this spacetime scenario?

To extend my previous analogy (with the Earth representing spacetime), if the Earth is embedded in a larger space (as it is), then latitude on the Earth has a relation to, say, height in the larger space. In *our* universe (corresponding to the Earth), there would still be a singularity and expansion (south pole and larger latitude lines) even if the larger 'muliverse' doesn't have such singularities.

The failure in this analogy is the most multiverse models have the multiverse expanding also.

 

[Polymath257]

She started it

Seriously she has made claims, I would merely like to see the evidence that support her claims. Worse yet she tried to imply that I reject Relativity when Relativity implies an expanding universe. In fact Einstein did not like that aspect of his theory. When others pointed out that his theory predicted an expanding universe he made what he called "My biggest blunder". by inventing the Cosmological Constant. Now it is thought that the CC may help explain how dark energy works.

Einstein's 'Biggest Blunder' Turns Out to Be Right

You and @viole were talking past each other. You were focused on the expansion of 3-dimensional *space* and she was focused on the larger 4-dimensional *spacetime*. She is correct that *spacetime* does not expand and is not flat. But, *space* does expand and *is* flat.

 

[metis]

More relevant is that multiverse models arise naturally from attempts to merge quantum mechanics and gravity.

I think that even q.m. on its own drives us in that direction.

 

[dfnj]

Cause only applies to finite objects and ideas. Time is infinite and has no cause. Many people are uncomfortable with unanswerable questions. So choose an answer that floats your boat.

 

[Polymath257]

I think that even q.m. on its own drives us in that direction.

Yes, but in a very different way. QM alone pushes more to parallel universes that do not interact at all.

Adding in gravity pushes to a multiverse where different universes can interact via gravity.

 

[Polymath257]

Cause only applies to finite objects and ideas. Time is infinite and has no cause. Many people are uncomfortable with unanswerable questions. So choose an answer that floats your boat.

Can you prove that time is infinite? I agree that it *may* be so, but there is also the possibility of a finite time line.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Can a cause cause an effect, without there being time in which to allow a sequence of events? As far as we can tell, time itself, as we know it, is a manifestation of the universe..

An apparent paradox, yet here we are! There is a solution somehow. But there is another problem; the infinite regression of cause and effect required to explain itself- Creative intelligence is the only phenomena we know of that can solve this, truly create something that does not depend on a specific cause and effect

This is like trying to explain a homerun with the rules of football. I'll say it again, cause and effect did not begin until within the first second of the universe's expansion. Please explain to me how what happens afterwards determines what came before.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

And perhaps began at the same time as time itself.

Or verrrrry shortly afterward. There may not have been enough distinctions at the first moments for cause and effect to occur.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

As I mentioned before, most cosmologists, according to researcher Leonard Susskind, do believe cause & effect did exist before the BB, such as what is hypothesized in brane theory and string theory, for just two possibilities.

Reference please.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

This is like trying to explain a homerun with the rules of football. I'll say it again, cause and effect did not begin until within the first second of the universe's expansion. Please explain to me how what happens afterwards determines what came before.

Then you are constraining the mechanism of creation to the very laws that were created- of course that's going to be paradoxical

Like wondering how the football players could possibly appear in their positions, before the game clock started running and no gameplay could take place yet..

To put it another way, whether intelligent agent or spontaneous mechanism- by definition the creator of the universe transcends the laws of it's own creation

 

[Subduction Zone]

You and @viole were talking past each other. You were focused on the expansion of 3-dimensional *space* and she was focused on the larger 4-dimensional *spacetime*. She is correct that *spacetime* does not expand and is not flat. But, *space* does expand and *is* flat.

Thank you for the clarifications. I see that my problem arose partly from my misunderstanding of the terminology used.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Thank you for the clarifications. I see that my problem arose partly from my misunderstanding of the terminology used.

Language is tricky.

 

[metis]

Yes, but in a very different way. QM alone pushes more to parallel universes that do not interact at all.

But we really cannot know that, and quantum physicists and cosmologists sorta warned us about getting too carried away with the parallel universe stuff.

As far as interaction is concerned, that may well depend on which stage we may be talking about. With brane theory, for example, these waves may spin off a "universe" from their interaction, but once spun off and going in different directions the degree of interaction after that may be close to nil.

The main thing qm does is to indicate the unpredictability of sub-atomic particles, including that there may be even parts of our own universe that may behave under different laws of physics.

No matter how we may try to look at this, much is likely to be even beyond even our imaginations since our brains are more patterned with how we perceive mega-matter versus sub-atomic particles, the latter of which we know so little about.

Interesting discussion though.

 

[metis]

Reference please.

Since they were from books written by cosmologists, I can't link you here. The best and most detailed is "The Universe Before the Bib Bang: Cosmology and String Theory" by Maurizio Gasperini, but also books by Leonard Susskind ("The Cosmic Landscape"), Michio Kaku ("Parallel Worlds"), and Simon Singh ("Big Bang") are also excellent, especially since they're from the researchers themselves.

The titles of the books by these men alone should pretty much tell you that they believe there was interactions prior to the BB, and none of them suggest that it likely just happened without cause..​

 

[gnostic]

Skies and earth were one unit and separated after the big bang probably. God was there, his Throne was on water and He created heavens and earth in 6 days

That’s absurd.

There was no “Earth” during the Big Bang.

The Big Bang occurred over 13 billion years ago. The Earth wasn’t formed until 9 billion years AFTER the Universe began expanding.

Second, the Solar System, including the Earth was formed from gas, dust and debris of previous supernovas, from stars that were older than our Sun.

Judging by the timeline of the Universe, our Sun is a 3rd generation star, so a youngster.

 

[gnostic]

God first, universe after. God is the first cause.

There are no evidences that god existing independent of man’s belief and wildly superstitious imagination.