First party consciousness states and third party correlations thereof

[atanu]

Suppose, I see a dream of a bear (bigger than Wu Wei) chasing me. It is a mental creation that is frightening me to death till the dream lasts. But what will a third party EEG record reveal? Actual state of consciousness of a man frightened to death in dream and a third party waking state observation of some electrical signals do not signify the same.

Similarly, suppose a man in meditation is experiencing a paradigm changing non dual consciousness. The mind of subject and objects has dissolved. There is an infinite sea of peace and happiness. In Eastern religions this experience is said to be the gateway to moksha, liberation from all mental problems and fears. This is the experience of the unadulterated infinite uncaused consciousness. Similar to water existing in three forms, consciousness has three states of waking, dreaming, and sleeping. But the underlying real nature of the consciousness is experienced or realised in nirvikalpa samadhi — when the subject object distinctions fall.

But the EEG records will show some electrical signals which are observations of the third party recorder/viewer’s waking observation of a brain’s electrical activities in a body supposedly going through a mere spiritual experience.

Does this record capture the significance of the first party experience of non dual consciousness, wherein the first party does not remain a party at all?

 

[sayak83]

Suppose, I see a dream of a bear (bigger than Wu Wei) chasing me. It is a mental creation that is frightening me to death till the dream lasts. But what will a third party EEG record reveal? Actual state of consciousness of a man frightened to death in dream and a third party waking state observation of some electrical signals do not signify the same.

Similarly, suppose a man in meditation is experiencing a paradigm changing non dual consciousness. The mind of subject and objects has dissolved. There is an infinite sea of peace and happiness. In Eastern religions this experience is said to be the gateway to moksha, liberation from all mental problems and fears. This is the experience of the unadulterated infinite uncaused consciousness. Similar to water existing in three forms, consciousness has three states of waking, dreaming, and sleeping. But the underlying real nature of the consciousness is experienced or realised in nirvikalpa samadhi — when the subject object distinctions fall.

But the EEG records will show some electrical signals which are observations of the third party recorder/viewer’s waking observation of a brain’s electrical activities in a body supposedly going through a mere spiritual experience.

Does this record capture the significance of the first party experience of non dual consciousness, wherein the first party does not remain a party at all?

For the bear example, consider a series of experiments where in the waking state:-
1) EEG is recorded where a person is seeing a suitably fearsome 3D movie where a bear "jumps" towards him.
2) EEG is recorded where the same person is seeing a funny bear video clip.

Based on the brain scans electrical response for the bear can be isolated from the response structure from associated features of the conscious state.

Thus, while recording an EEG for a sleeping person, the researchers can accurately predict based on the features in the EEG recording itself that the person is having a nightmare about a chasing bear.

Analogous experiments have actually been successfully done and predictions verified. So it is now actually possible to look at brains electrical activity and tell what sort of experience one is having based on the structures present in the activity field itself.

 

[atanu]

Yeah.

 

[sayak83]

Yeah.

Does this affect the OP argument? For example if it's possible to isolate the neural signals associated with self (for example putting a person in a dark room so that sensory consciousness parts are subdued), then it's absence in a meditating person's EEG would objectively indicate that the meditator had attained a state of consciousness that does not have a self.

 

[Sunstone]

Interesting OP. I recently began reading a popular book on this subject, published last year, and written by the neuroscientists Andrew Newberg and Mark Waldman, How Enlightenment Changes Your Brain.

I haven't gotten very far into the book yet, and so I don't have much to add to this conversation yet, but I find it interesting that tMRI scans of people's brains when they are recalling enlightenment experiences seem to indicate that the recollection of those experiences is closely associated with various levels of activity in different regions of the brain.

For instance, the tMRI scans show a decrease in activity in the parietal lobe, which is a region of the brain that, when active, is associated with creating the duality of self and non-self.

 

[atanu]

Interesting OP. I recently began reading a popular book on this subject, published last year, and written by the neuroscientists Andrew Newberg and Mark Waldman, How Enlightenment Changes Your Brain.

Hello Sunstone

How do you do?

Let me try once more and if the distinction is missed after reading the note below, probably there will be no point trying again.

A doctor can examine the changes in brain structures of a man who has experienced non dual consciousness. From the doctor’s POV, the observations will be correct and may be useful for medical or other purpose.

But this man has experienced non dual consciousness many times at ease, just as one eats breakfast. For such a being, the truth is non dual—devoid of a subject and a separate world comprising innumerable objects, what to talk of brain or limbs. Objects are like play items and/or characters in a film. Such a person is a mere seer of a passing show. He is fearless. He is pure consciousness. In short, we can say that such a being abides in the realm of shunya and is shunya itself/himself.

The doctor simply cannot grasp or even imagine the state of this sage. We are just comparing two different states of consciousness.

It is okay and expected that those who know only of waking state consciousness will be cynical, dismissive, and even insulting. But I hope that a handful of readers may contemplate.

 

[sayak83]

Hello Sunstone

How do you do?

Let me try once more and if the distinction is missed after reading the note below, probably there will be no point trying again.

A doctor can examine the changes in brain structures of a man who has experienced non dual consciousness. From the doctor’s POV, the observations will be correct and may be useful for medical or other purpose.

But this man has experienced non dual consciousness many times at ease, just as one eats breakfast. For such a being, the truth is non dual—devoid of a subject and a separate world comprising innumerable objects, what to talk of brain or limbs. Objects are like play items and/or characters in a film. Such a person is a mere seer of a passing show. He is fearless. He is pure consciousness. In short, we can say that such a being abides in the realm of shunya and is shunya itself/himself.

The doctor simply cannot grasp or even imagine the state of this sage. We are just comparing two different stars of consciousness.

It is okay and expected that those who know only of waking state consciousness will be cynical, dismissive, and even insulting. But I hope that a handful of readers may contemplate.

The claim can be tested as follows.
Can one drive a car while experiencing a non-dual state? Put an expert meditator in a drive simulator and monitor his EEG. If the EEG shows that he can expertly drive a car without his brain registering any difference in subject-object spatial awareness then the claim is proved that he is indeed seeing everything as non-dual. Otherwise it's merely the case of him training his mind to eliminate all sensory and thought inputs to create an internal blankness and he isn't actually perceiving anything.

 

[Sunstone]

Hello Sunstone

How do you do?

Let me try once more and if the distinction is missed after reading the note below, probably there will be no point trying again.

A doctor can examine the changes in brain structures of a man who has experienced non dual consciousness. From the doctor’s POV, the observations will be correct and may be useful for medical or other purpose.

But this man has experienced non dual consciousness many times at ease, just as one eats breakfast. For such a being, the truth is non dual—devoid of a subject and a separate world comprising innumerable objects, what to talk of brain or limbs. Objects are like play items and/or characters in a film. Such a person is a mere seer of a passing show. He is fearless. He is pure consciousness. In short, we can say that such a being abides in the realm of shunya and is shunya itself/himself.

The doctor simply cannot grasp or even imagine the state of this sage. We are just comparing two different states of consciousness.

It is okay and expected that those who know only of waking state consciousness will be cynical, dismissive, and even insulting. But I hope that a handful of readers may contemplate.

I should have been more specific. I wasn't suggesting that the tMRI scans allow researchers to know the qualia of an enlightened person's consciousness. I was just passing along information I thought might be of interest to you. My apologies if it was not.

Newberg and Waldman themselves are both quite aware that their research does not reveal the qualia of anyone's consciousness.

 

[atanu]

The claim can be tested as follows.
Can one drive a car while experiencing a non-dual state? Put an expert meditator in a drive simulator and monitor his EEG. If the EEG shows that he can expertly drive a car without his brain registering any difference in subject-object spatial awareness then the claim is proved that he is indeed seeing everything as non-dual. Otherwise it's merely the case of him training his mind to eliminate all sensory and thought inputs to create an internal blankness and he isn't actually perceiving anything.

The point is not about testing verity. I have presented here the case of, let us suppose, Shri Ramana Maharshi, or Shri Shankarachatya, or the Buddha.

 

[atanu]

I should have been more specific. I wasn't suggesting that the tMRI scans allow researchers to know the qualia of an enlightened person's consciousness. I was just passing along information I thought might be of interest to you. My apologies if it was not.

Newberg and Waldman themselves are both quite aware that their research does not reveal the qualia of anyone's consciousness.

Oh. Sorry sir. You never require to apologise, at least with me.

Often people, intentionally or unknowingly, may ignore the difference in nature of knowledge of a meditator who abides in non dual consciousness and a doctor whose mind is in the subject-object realm.

Just wanted that to be recorded here. Thank you for reading and commenting.

 

[sayak83]

The point is not about testing verity. I have presented here the case of, let us suppose, Shri Ramana Maharshi, or Shri Shankarachatya, or the Buddha.

I am speculating on what would constitute a satisfactory third person test of their claims.

 

[David T]

Suppose, I see a dream of a bear (bigger than Wu Wei) chasing me. It is a mental creation that is frightening me to death till the dream lasts. But what will a third party EEG record reveal? Actual state of consciousness of a man frightened to death in dream and a third party waking state observation of some electrical signals do not signify the same.

Similarly, suppose a man in meditation is experiencing a paradigm changing non dual consciousness. The mind of subject and objects has dissolved. There is an infinite sea of peace and happiness. In Eastern religions this experience is said to be the gateway to moksha, liberation from all mental problems and fears. This is the experience of the unadulterated infinite uncaused consciousness. Similar to water existing in three forms, consciousness has three states of waking, dreaming, and sleeping. But the underlying real nature of the consciousness is experienced or realised in nirvikalpa samadhi — when the subject object distinctions fall.

But the EEG records will show some electrical signals which are observations of the third party recorder/viewer’s waking observation of a brain’s electrical activities in a body supposedly going through a mere spiritual experience.

Does this record capture the significance of the first party experience of non dual consciousness, wherein the first party does not remain a party at all?

This is a very good post!!!

Does the above statement encapsulate the totality involved in my thought?

You observe the statement, but how would you interpret it?

Is your interpretation accurate?

I play a lot on here with language and invariably it gets people head scratching. While the observer wants structure that they understand I am giving structure that isn't clear to them intentionally. Since it's not clear its generally interpreted as me being confused. If writing can be both written intentionally and observed as confused, then third party observation particularly in context to neurology must be held in complete disregard as simple being reading cloud fantasies. Rorschasch at its finest. This tends to dress itself up and call itself science. In religion it's called theology. I have a deep disdain for theology a deeper disdain when it's dressed up and called science. I always recommend long hikes in the woods it's a mental disorder called normal. It seems to be common.

 

[atanu]

I am speculating on what would constitute a satisfactory third person test of their claims.

Yes. We must. But you know there is an Upanishadic saying : Who will see the Seer? Who will know the Knower?

And also, "The word and mind return from it".

If I may be allowed to use a simple and approximate analogy. Trying to measure electrical signals of inside brain of a sleeping man in order describe the sleeping state consciousness is like measuring density of ice to describe water.

Think of it.

 

[Nakosis]

Suppose, I see a dream of a bear (bigger than Wu Wei) chasing me. It is a mental creation that is frightening me to death till the dream lasts. But what will a third party EEG record reveal? Actual state of consciousness of a man frightened to death in dream and a third party waking state observation of some electrical signals do not signify the same.

Similarly, suppose a man in meditation is experiencing a paradigm changing non dual consciousness. The mind of subject and objects has dissolved. There is an infinite sea of peace and happiness. In Eastern religions this experience is said to be the gateway to moksha, liberation from all mental problems and fears. This is the experience of the unadulterated infinite uncaused consciousness. Similar to water existing in three forms, consciousness has three states of waking, dreaming, and sleeping. But the underlying real nature of the consciousness is experienced or realised in nirvikalpa samadhi — when the subject object distinctions fall.

But the EEG records will show some electrical signals which are observations of the third party recorder/viewer’s waking observation of a brain’s electrical activities in a body supposedly going through a mere spiritual experience.

Does this record capture the significance of the first party experience of non dual consciousness, wherein the first party does not remain a party at all?

Here is a site you might be interested in.

Science and Nonduality | SAND honors and nurtures the exploration and experience of nonduality as a pathway to greater wisdom and wellbeing in the context of the unique challenges of the 21st century.

 

[atanu]

Here is a site you might be interested in.

Science and Nonduality | SAND honors and nurtures the exploration and experience of nonduality as a pathway to greater wisdom and wellbeing in the context of the unique challenges of the 21st century.

Thank you. I will explore the site.

 

[sayak83]

Some scientists do not ascribe to the idea that consciousness is brain.

Scientists say your “mind” isn’t confined to your brain, or even your body

Even then, Dr. Dan Seigel seems to be saying that Mind is the seat of Consciousness. Whereas, the teaching of the East is that Consciousness is fundamental. The problem, IMO, arises, because only the sensual and mental manifestations are considered consciousness. For Vedantins, when the mind is tranquil and free of thought, when it acts as mere seer, the consciousness is known as the infinite sea, whereupon sensual and mental manifestations arise. I think it is somewhat like distinguishing between Potential energy and Kinetic energy.

What is the Sanskrit for consciousness? Which upanisadic term, in your view is cognate with consciousness? The Upanishads state clearly that the mind is material (I can quote verses if you like) and as far as I can see, scientists are talking about the mind when they are discussion consciousness, subconscious aspects, cognition etc. There is no conflict here. What Upanishads say is that "directly illumining" feature of the conscious field is derived from a more fundamental strata of reality which when carefully perceived in the state of "object-free awareness state" of a master yogi is discovered to be the ultimate foundation of self-essence as well as object-essence. This latter part is not a claim that scientists can currently tackle. Science is currently focused on developing a comprehensive understanding of the mind and how to unify it with the phenomenal structure of conscious experience.

Most confusions stem from diverging usage of the catch-all term "consciousness" for every aspect of mind and subjective experiences. This mostly reflects on the poor development of introspective methods in the English speaking world on the one-hand and absence of joint expertise in both neuroscience, psychiatry, phenomenology and Sanskrit philosophy of mind and Self by the folks who translate Sanskrit works to English. We actually need to build institutes for this, otherwise insights will be lost in translation difficulties.

 

[atanu]

I am sorry. I deleted the post, because I felt that this would detract from the theme of the thread.