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Flavors of Capitalism vs. the sound bite society

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Sadly, it’s a given that our society’s collective ability to think has been reduced to sound bites. Sigh.

That said, I’d like to think that perhaps in the upcoming elections, Dems could offer up a few simple distinctions about economic systems.

For instance could they talk about “Eisenhower Capitalism” vs, “Trump Capitalism”?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Neoliberalism vs Keynesianism.
Roosevelt vs Reagan.
Libertarianism vs socialism.

From a historical context, what were the social and economic effects of these?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I saw a PBS special the other night about the "Guilded Age". And I've been reading about various forms of capitalism only one of which is based on the idea that those who are rich are Darwinian survivors while the poor are losers.

But when the right starts yelling "socialism" at any attempt to aide the poor, the chance of a reasonable discussion almost vanishes.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I would like to know what Capitalism is.

Because in Political Economics you have
- Liberism (at various degrees)
- State Interventism
- Socialism (at various degrees)
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I would like to know what Capitalism is.

Because in Political Economics you have
- Liberism (at various degrees)
- State Interventism
- Socialism (at various degrees)
And various kinds. Social Democrats who believe in free enterprise versus state ownership types are very different.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
And various kinds. Social Democrats who believe in free enterprise versus state ownership types are very different.
Yes, but they can perfectly coexist.
It is not all black and white.

Let us not confuse Macroeconomics with Microeconomics. Marketplace can be so large to host both the state sectors (monopolies, sometimes oligopolies) and the private ones .
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
But when the right starts yelling "socialism" at any attempt to aide the poor, the chance of a reasonable discussion almost vanishes.
The left yells the same thing about helping the poor, ie, "Socialism!".
Neither side uses the term correctly.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I saw a PBS special the other night about the "Guilded Age". And I've been reading about various forms of capitalism only one of which is based on the idea that those who are rich are Darwinian survivors while the poor are losers.

But when the right starts yelling "socialism" at any attempt to aide the poor, the chance of a reasonable discussion almost vanishes.

For the last 30-odd years the GOP has pushed various flavors of "Reaganomics".

As I understand Warren (for example), I think she could be touting "Eisenhower-enomics" without veering too far from her proposals. I'm just thinking that a phrase like "Eisenhower Capitalism" (given that Ike was in the GOP), might be a powerful sound bite for the Dems.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What kind of socialism?
Good point. "socialism" is a pretty broad brush. Was FDR socialist? Was Eisenhower? Is Bernie Sanders?
Is Scandinavia socialist, or should the term be applied only to the planned and managed economies of Kibbutzim, Hutterites or Bolshevics?
Neo-liberism. Not liberalism:)

Liberism - Wikipedia
Yes liberalism and neo-liberalism shouldn't be confused. In many ways they are opposites.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The left yells the same thing about helping the poor, ie, "Socialism!".
Neither side uses the term correctly.

That is why a serious economist is apolitical.

Supply-side economics, that is detaxation to favor investments is useful.

Public expenditure in strategic sectors like health or education, to create labor force, is useful too.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Good point. "socialism" is a pretty broad brush. Was FDR socialist? Was Eisenhower? Is Bernie Sanders?
Is Scandinavia socialist, or should the term be applied only to the planned and managed economies of Kibbutzim, Hutterites or Bolshevics?
Yes liberalism and neo-liberalism shouldn't be confused. In many ways they are opposites.
I'm a neo-post-paleo-arch-nouveau-libertarian.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I saw a PBS special the other night about the "Guilded Age". And I've been reading about various forms of capitalism only one of which is based on the idea that those who are rich are Darwinian survivors while the poor are losers.

But when the right starts yelling "socialism" at any attempt to aide the poor, the chance of a reasonable discussion almost vanishes.

Uh....that's not why the right starts yelling 'socialism.' We start yelling because....well....

there is this political cartoon about the difference between conservatives and liberals, at least as expressed in the USA.

I can't draw worth a hoot...but...

two men are walking down the road; a conservative and a liberal. The conservative says "We have to do more to help the poor!"
The Liberal says "Yes! You DO!" and he reaches into the conservative's back pocket, grabs his wallet, removes all the money in it, and says "there! The poor are helped!"

....and if you don't get the point of that joke, well....

It just so happens that Republicans are more charitable than Democrats. EVERYBODY agrees with that. Left leaning articles attempt to get around this by saying that Republicans (conservatives) give more to their churches...which for some reason don't count even though most charities that help actual people are funded BY churches) and Democrats (liberals) give more to secular charities. Which do count. You know...like the local art museum and/or theater, the organization devoted to rescuing terrier/chihuaha mixes, the local fund for erecting a monument to Johnny Appleseed? THEY count.

the prime example of this that one account uses is the Mitt Romney Vs. Obama giving. It was noted that Romney gave away a far higher percentage of his income than Obama did...but then dismissed that by saying that 80$%of Romney's contribution went to the Mormon church (which according to the liberals, doesn't count) where Obama gave to the Sidwell Friends School and the United Negro College fund, which DO count. Now contributions to the United Negro College Fund DO 'count,' definitely, as to contributions to the Red Cross...but since when should contributions to his daughters VERY pricey and private school count?

And why don't contributions to the Mormon church 'count?" Yes, 10% of Romney's income was 'tithing,' and went to church administration costs. However, anything over and above that (and Romney contributed nearly 30% of his income) went to the 'welfare fund,' 100% of which went directly to those who needed aid. You know, food, shelter, mortgage and rent payments. Even the Red Cross doesn't send 100% of it's income to the programs it supports.

So why doesn't his 20% contribution to what is arguably the best and most efficient welfare program in the USA 'count"? Why is it dismissed?

Capitalists...the good ones...understand that they are responsible, PERSONALLY, for the welfare of their fellow men and women.
Socialists figure that the capitalists are correct. They ARE responsible for the welfare of their fellow men and women, and what's more, the socialists are going to see to it that the capitalists not only pay for everything, they'll do it the way the socialists WANT them to do it.

In the mean time, the liberals (and socialists, a bit further down the line) will contribute their considerably lower percentage of charitable giving to tax-exempt charities that have absolutely nothing to do with helping other people...and volunteer, comparatively, far fewer personal hours.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That is why a serious economist is apolitical.

Supply-side economics, that is detaxation to favor investments is useful.

Public expenditure in strategic sectors like health or education, to create labor force, is useful too.
Alas, economics is inextricably linked with politics for even
giants in the field, eg, Milton Friedman, eg, all that crazy
individualist crap like opposition to the military draft.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Opposition to the draft is individualist crap? Isn't it, rather, freedom of conscience?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Alas, economics is inextricably linked with politics for even
giants in the field, eg, Milton Friedman, eg, all that crazy
individualist crap like opposition to the military draft.
It is clear...Europe has been existing since lots of time. Smith, Keynes...have had visions of microcosms economies...being European countries "microcosms" ...not comparable to the giant USA. :)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Good point. "socialism" is a pretty broad brush. Was FDR socialist? Was Eisenhower? Is Bernie Sanders?
Is Scandinavia socialist, or should the term be applied only to the planned and managed economies of Kibbutzim, Hutterites or Bolshevics?
It's all about who is controlling the mechanisms of commerce. In a capitalist economy, it's the capital investor. In communist economy, it's the members of the commune. In a fascist economy, it's the dictatorship. And in a socialist economy, it's the society as a whole, usually through authorized representatives.

All of these economic systems borrow aspects and mechanisms from each other. But they are each defined by the principal players that are controlling them.
 
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