Flirting vs. Sexual Harassment

[Audie]

Yes, I agree with that. Although I think most people should understand at least some of the basics - such as good manners. It doesn't mean they always practice them, but they should have an idea as to what they are.

But even then, I think it's also readily apparent when someone is simply clueless or lacking skill (such as a naive young farm boy visiting the big city for the first time), as opposed to someone who is intentionally behaving in a malicious or provocative manner.

At least in many of the sexual harassment cases I'm aware of, it's not due to lack of skill, as it's clear that the perpetrators knew exactly what they were doing. It's not like these are just clueless nerds fumbling with cheesy pick-up lines they learned from watching The Love Boat. (I think that show ruined everything.)

Do you have a "worst pick up line" that you have heard?

 

[Estro Felino]

That's kind of sad to me as an American person. (No offense). Because I only make the first move 50 percent of the time even when interested.

I don't understand. What do you mean?

 

[Audie]

Btw...I believe (this is my personal opinion) it is not feminine to hit on a man..and my femininity is something I really want to preserve.

I am sure each culture has its way for women
to let a guy know she just might be approachable.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

I think most people should understand at least some of the basics - such as good manners.

Lots of like I guess of lovelorn incels don't even understand the basics of just being a good person. They believe that manipulation and subterfuge is the way to go about finding a companion instead of improving their character.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I don't understand. What do you mean?

Well imagine there are 10 people I'm interested in. If I'm lucky, I may bring it up with 5 of them. Lucky being having built up the courage. But the other 5 may never know. Unless they feel something themselves and bring it up.

This is a rough example though, considering I'm monogamous and only focus on at most maybe 2 people at once. Only one when things get involved.

 

[metis]

This is an area whereas I have had to force myself to be more cautious because my French and my wife's Italian heritage tends to be touchy-feely, but not in a sexual way. However, some people that don't know us well may take it as being sexual enticement.

 

[Estro Felino]

This is an area whereas I have had to force myself to be more cautious because my French and my wife's Italian heritage tends to be touchy-feely, but not in a sexual way. However, some people that don't know us well may take it as being sexual enticement.

Since you brought up "Italian woman"...can you be more specific?

 

[Enoch07]

This is pretty much how I see it. There are some exceptions I can imagine but it works as a rule of thumb.

It's a shame, it takes away from some of the fun of cat/mouse flirting etc. But slowly but surely all fun is being killed. Soon I wouldn't be surprised if we needed sexual consent contracts signed and notarized before each encounter.

 

[Estro Felino]

Btw...Italian women tend not to be bothered by being hit on...even by strangers.

As I said earlier (and this is just my personal opinion, I might be wrong) we Italian women are much more submissive, on average than American women.

 

[oldbadger]

Men are larger than women, so men hardly ever accuse women of sexual harassment since there is little or no actual threat from a woman making unwanted advances toward a men. For the record, I welcome female sexual harassment toward me (can't speak for other men, tho). Women, please sexually harass me more often.

How would you feel if a man told you that you look really good in those pants? Or whatever?

How about if he complemented you on your cologne fragrance? :shrug;

This isn't about men/women it's about people.

 

[HonestJoe]

It seems that nowadays the lines between flirting and sexual harassment are becoming increasingly blurred.

I’d argue the exact opposite. Sexual harassment has only been recognised as a valid concept relatively recently and the acceptance of people complaining about it (male or female) in the face of “but I was only flirting” is still limited.

However, it seems that today, even complimenting a woman's appearance (especially if she is a stranger or distant acquaintance of the man and not a friend) could lead to being seen as creepy and in some environments (office, for instance) could lead to accusations of sexual harassment.

Why are you commenting on strangers’ appearances at all? Outside contexts where it specifically solicited (say in art), I can’t imagine a random comment about how someone looks not feeling creepy or strange.

Here is my controversial, yet very simple assessment of the situation. If a guy approaches a woman and she thinks he's handsome, it's perfectly acceptable flirting…

There are undoubtedly elements of that in life (though it’s worth noting that it works in a similar way with the gender roles reversed) but it’d be dangerous to presume it will always be the case either way.

Thoughts? Do you have any better way of distinguishing between flirting and harassment? Let's see it.

Consent generally. If the recipient is receptive, it’s flirting. If they’re it’s harassment. This falls back to the concept of making comments to complete strangers. If you got to know people a bit before you attempted to engage in “romantic” intentions, you should have an idea of whether your approach is likely to be welcomed or not.

 

[Audie]

How would you feel if a man told you that you look really good in those pants? Or whatever?

How about if he complemented you on your cologne fragrance? :shrug;

This isn't about men/women it's about people.

Now, you are just pointing out the (what
OUGHT to be!) obvious.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thoughts? Do you have any better way of distinguishing between flirting and harassment? Let's see it.

If some action you might want to take is so close to illegal harassment that you can't tell whether it crosses the line, it's certainly well beyond the "inappropriate for the workplace" line.

 

[Audie]

, you should have an idea of whether your approach is likely to be welcomed or not.

Unfortunately, a lot of people are socially inept.
I wonder if there is some training available, to
help them out?

 

[oldbadger]

Correction - some men are larger than some women.

Oh, really? Setting aside the incorrect premise about size, are we ignoring the impact of verbal harassment now? We're also going to ignore gay and lesbian relationships? Of course we are. It doesn't fit into your narrative.

I was shouting out all this .......... and then read your first and this post.

It's absolutely mind boggling how some folks are still blind to how individual our sexuality can be.

I have already asked how the OP would cope with personal compliments from a bloke.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am from a Mediterranean country...where generally women are taught it is not ladylike or feminine to make the first move, or to hit on a man.
Hitting on a male is something I would never do, even if I have a big crush on him.


So if a woman likes a guy, she is supposed to wait for him to make the first move...
So the males can and should hit on a girl if they like her...
It is sufficient to use words and to be polite.
This is not harassement at all.

An even better approach: just don't try to pick up people at work. Save the behaviour for the bar or club on the weekend.

 

[ChristineM]

It seems that nowadays the lines between flirting and sexual harassment are becoming increasingly blurred. Now, before I say anything more, I believe there is a very important distinction to make between sexual harassment and sexual assault. Sexual assault involves physical contact and is absolutely wrong. A man should never touch a woman without her consent.

However, it seems that today, even complimenting a woman's appearance (especially if she is a stranger or distant acquaintance of the man and not a friend) could lead to being seen as creepy and in some environments (office, for instance) could lead to accusations of sexual harassment.

Here is my controversial, yet very simple assessment of the situation. If a guy approaches a woman and she thinks he's handsome, it's perfectly acceptable flirting. If a guy approaches a woman (and says the same things as guy #1) and she thinks he's ugly, then he's a creep and in some cases even a sexual "harasser." Creepy and confident have the same definition, except that creepy guys are ugly and confident guys are handsome. Thus, unattractive men that approach women in the office will risk losing their jobs, but attractive men will not (ever notice that nearly all the male celebrities fired for sexual harassment are old and unattractive, and none of them look like Brad Pitt?). But, how can a male know if a female finds him attractive unless he approaches her? Perhaps women should start approaching men instead. This would resolve the problems.

Thoughts? Do you have any better way of distinguishing between flirting and harassment? Let's see it.

Even more simple, yes or no. If the other party accepts your advances then ok, if not, then back off.

No one will loose their job for a one time 'trying it on'. If you receive acceptance* then continue (so long as it doesn't interfere with work)

If not then continued attemps are harassment.

* Now the tricky bit, what is considered acceptence? An outright slapped face or knee in the nuts are rare, you may get a 'no' or 'go away', body language or if the other party turns away or walks away. Just take heed of the signals.

I also would consider it rather shallow to consider unattractiveness to be a major problem. Many physically unattractive people are beautiful in character and mind.

 

[Audie]

I seriously hope you are joking.

the double negative was kind of confusing,
hard to say what was intended.

 

[Audie]

Even more simple, yes or no. If the other party accepts your advances then ok, if not, then back off.

No one will loose their job for a one time 'trying it on'. If you receive acceptance* then continue (so long as it doesn't interfere with work)

If not then continued attemps are harassment.

* Now the tricky bit, what is considered acceptence? An outright slapped face or knee in the nuts are rare, you may get a 'no' or 'go away', body language or if the other party turns away or walks away. Just take heed of the signals.

I also would consider it rather shallow to consider unattractiveness to be a major problem. Many physically unattractive people are beautiful in character and mind.

 

[Estro Felino]

An even better approach: just don't try to pick up people at work. Save the behaviour for the bar or club on the weekend.

I don't understand..
So a male colleague cannot hit on a female colleague?
Or ask her out?