• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Florida governor DeSantis says recreational pot and abortion are too radical

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
No one stacked the court, Republicans nominated and confirmed justices per the constitution. And again no, the supreme court did not ban abortion.
Your blinders are growing wider and thicker!

Senate Republicans, of course, under Mitch McConnell used their majority to stack and rewire the court, holding a 2016 seat open for nearly a year under a Democratic president by manufacturing a rule about confirmations during an election year, but fast-tracking the appointment of a conservative in fall 2020 even after early voting had already begun! The hypocrisy is nothing short of astounding!

And you are being disingenuous. Perhaps you may be correct in saying "the supreme court did not ban abortion," but you don't say what it did do -- for the first time in American history, it took away a constitutional right for half the population of the United States.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Your blinders are growing wider and thicker!

Senate Republicans, of course, under Mitch McConnell used their majority to stack and rewire the court, holding a 2016 seat open for nearly a year under a Democratic president by manufacturing a rule about confirmations during an election year, but fast-tracking the appointment of a conservative in fall 2020 even after early voting had already begun! The hypocrisy is nothing short of astounding!
Nothing that the democrats didn't call for in the past. You know as well as I do the dems would have done the same thing. The dems play politics like this all the time which I doubt you rant about. You are under the mistaken impression that one party is worse than the other. They are both corrupt to some extent, the dems are just more corrupt.
And you are being disingenuous. Perhaps you may be correct in saying "the supreme court did not ban abortion," but you don't say what it did do -- for the first time in American history, it took away a constitutional right for half the population of the United States.
That was the point. It took away a "right" the american people did not have in the first place. Where is that right in the constitution? They were actually following the law.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I agree.

The decision allowed states to ban abortion, but it did not ban abortion. It said it was not a constitutionally protected right and it should be left up to the states. If a government bans abortion nationally in the future then it is going against the ruling of the Dobbs decision.

Interesting. I wonder which way it would go if the Dems try to pass a bill to legalize abortion, and then as a separate question, if the GOP try to pass a bill to ban it? I have a feeling that the decisions would be different in each case. This court has little time for Stare Decisis though, as evidenced by Dobbs.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Nothing that the democrats didn't call for in the past. You know as well as I do the dems would have done the same thing. The dems play politics like this all the time which I doubt you rant about. You are under the mistaken impression that one party is worse than the other. They are both corrupt to some extent, the dems are just more corrupt.
But the Democrats didn't do it, the Republicans did in this case. You may suppose who would do what all you like, but it in the end, it really comes down to "who dunnit?"

But I have my own thoughts about this sort of thing. Very young children can recognize fair and unfair play -- even many animals can recognize (and object to) being treated worse than another. Being honest, playing fairly -- these are important to me. And I think that politics in a democracy could well be much more effective if these were important to politicians, too. And frankly, I think there was a time when that was the case. I've read the histories of some of the great bi-partisan collaborations in the U.S. and other nations.
That was the point. It took away a "right" the american people did not have in the first place. Where is that right in the constitution? They were actually following the law.
I see, you're a textualist. Then you should also read the text of the 9th Amendment, which says: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The Framers were wise enough to know that they could not foresee every twist and turn in humanity, in society, or in what may from time to time be recognized as a right. And that was the judgement of Roe v. Wade, in exactly the same way (about a different right) as was Loving v. Virginia, Obergefell v. Hodges.

Of course, it's an interesting little factoid that Justice Clarence Thomas, in his concurring opinion, did threaten Obergefell -- but neglected to threaten Loving. One can only surmise why...:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Add these to the list of other freedoms the Republicans in Florida object to such as teaching DEI and CRT, "don't say gay," and banned books.
It's concerning that a reputable news source fails to use proper AP standards of spelling things out first then using them acronym/initialism.
Not the topic, but one should never assume a generalized audience is going to know those things.
On topic, the Republicans are fascist. It's feeling like a dead horse here.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Not one court has banned abortion,
Almost as if they ruled just to prove you wrong.

nowhere is there forced prayer in schools and not teaching adult subjects to 2nd graders is not ostracizing queers.
Oh, they have been trying. That pesky separation of church and state has been eroding.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Not one court has banned abortion, nowhere is there forced prayer in schools and not teaching adult subjects to 2nd graders is not ostracizing queers.
Being the mealy-mouthed cowards that they are, they're letting the states do it. When they should be protecting every citizen's rights from these militant religious zealots and the spineless, morally bankrupt politicians that pander to them.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Interesting. I wonder which way it would go if the Dems try to pass a bill to legalize abortion, and then as a separate question, if the GOP try to pass a bill to ban it? I have a feeling that the decisions would be different in each case. This court has little time for Stare Decisis though, as evidenced by Dobbs.
I think either bill would fail. Stare Decisis is not an obligation. Many supreme court rulings have been overturned when they were wrong.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
But the Democrats didn't do it, the Republicans did in this case. You may suppose who would do what all you like, but it in the end, it really comes down to "who dunnit?"
Ok
But I have my own thoughts about this sort of thing. Very young children can recognize fair and unfair play -- even many animals can recognize (and object to) being treated worse than another. Being honest, playing fairly -- these are important to me. And I think that politics in a democracy could well be much more effective if these were important to politicians, too. And frankly, I think there was a time when that was the case. I've read the histories of some of the great bi-partisan collaborations in the U.S. and other nations.
I agree.
I see, you're a textualist. Then you should also read the text of the 9th Amendment, which says: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The Framers were wise enough to know that they could not foresee every twist and turn in humanity, in society, or in what may from time to time be recognized as a right. And that was the judgement of Roe v. Wade, in exactly the same way (about a different right) as was Loving v. Virginia, Obergefell v. Hodges.
How is a right determined? Certainly when the constitution was written a right to an abortion was not supported. So when did it become a right and how?
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Almost as if they ruled just to prove you wrong.


Oh, they have been trying. That pesky separation of church and state has been eroding.
No, they upheld a law than banned most abortions that the lawmakers passed. That is not banning anything. The state legislature banned it.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Being the mealy-mouthed cowards that they are, they're letting the states do it. When they should be protecting every citizen's rights from these militant religious zealots and the spineless, morally bankrupt politicians that pander to them.
It seems you are too full of hate to think logically. Have a nice day.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't hear about it as much any more, but when I was in my teens and 20s, there was a lot of news coverage about black market cigarettes being smuggled into Canada, mostly from the US.

There was even some violence as different gangs tried to control the illegal cigarette trade.

It's a thing here in Australia as well.

 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's a thing here in Australia as well.


A lot of people around here buy tobacco products on the Reservation to save money on tax. On the other hand, recreational pot is legal in Arizona, yet only legally obtainable from licensed dispensaries, in contrast with cigarettes and alcohol which are sold nearly everywhere. The violence and gang wars are generally associated with the cocaine and meth trade, although I've been hearing a lot about fentanyl these days.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
No, they upheld a law than banned most abortions that the lawmakers passed.
In 1864. They didn't uphold the other laws from that time. One is that ALL men over 18 have to join a posse organization, and if they don;t they can be fined no less than $50 but no more than $1000.

Why just the abortion law that wasn't being recognized 160 years later?
That is not banning anything. The state legislature banned it.
There was no state in 1864. It was just a territory.

The SC of AZ ruled the lawvalid and the result is abortion bans.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In 1864. They didn't uphold the other laws from that time. One is that ALL men over 18 have to join a posse organization, and if they don;t they can be fined no less than $50 but no more than $1000.

Oh no. I could be in really big trouble now, for not joining a posse.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How is a right determined?
Good question, and you've seen diverse answers including God grants them or we are born with them. And many people will call anything they want to do their right, or mistakenly tell police things like, "You have no right to force me out of my vehicle."

But none of that actually confers a right. What does that is the consensus of a community willing to enforce what it calls a right. When the law says one has a right to an abortion on demand under certain circumstances and is willing to bring the force of the law to guarantee it, then ne has that right. When the law will no longer do that and will allow others to prevent or forbid you getting an abortion, and perhaps use the force of law to prevent that abortion, your right has disappeared.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
How is a right determined? Certainly when the constitution was written a right to an abortion was not supported. So when did it become a right and how?
Well, now, you see here is where we will part company completely, I think. Let me start with a little humor, T.H. White's The Once and Future King (a tale of King Arthur and Merlin). While growing up an orphan, Wart (later King Arthur) is turned into various animals by Merlin, to teach him lessons. As a bird, for example, Wart discovers that when he's flying high, he can't see borders, and realizes that these are simply man-made. When Merlin turns Wart into an ant, Wart visits an ant colony that Merlin keeps, where he learns that in the ant world, "EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY."

Now, that might work well in quantum physics, and in an ant colony where the only language is "done" and "not done," but it doesn't fit a creature like the human very well, does it? There is a popular maxim in common law systems, “everything which is not forbidden is allowed”. The idea is that in liberal democracies we are inherently and naturally free to do anything, so long as it is not expressly prohibited by law. I tend to agree with this, except that my conscience forces me to disallow anything that may, so far as I am aware, cause harm to any other person, except in the very gravest of circumstances.

I'd like to point out that the U.S. Constitution also does not include the right to marry whom you will -- and especially not someone of another race. For many years, in the United States, anti-miscengenation laws were common throughout the states -- until Loving v. Virginia, in 1967 (when I was already 19 years old!) made laws against interracial marriage unconstitutional. Justice Clarence Thomas, born in 1948 like me, hails from Georgia, whose anti-miscegenation laws banning whites from marrying blacks, native Americans and Filipinos, were not rescinded until 1972. At that time, Thomas was married to a black woman. He would not have been permitted to marry his current wife Virginia at the time.

So the right to free choice in the matter of abortion existed until human laws denied the right -- and the United States Supreme Court finally determined those laws to be unconstitutional in Roe v. Wade, in 1973, returning that right to the individual.

Thus, I think the better question (better than "how is a right determined") is "how do we decide what is not a right?" The answer is often quite easy, for things like murder, mayhem, theft and so forth. Sometimes it is not so easy, like "hate speech" which in Canada is (partly) defined as: "communicating statements in any public place, [to] incite hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace." That is a curb on an absolute right to freedom of expression, I know, but I think it not an unwarranted one.
 
Last edited:

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No, they upheld a law than banned most abortions that the lawmakers passed. That is not banning anything. The state legislature banned it.
On June 23, 2022, abortion was legal nationwide in the US.

On June 24, 2022, abortion became completely illegal in West Virginia and effectively illegal or severely restricted in a number of other states.

What do you think happened on June 24, 2022? I'll give you three options:

1) state legislatures changed the law
2) the US Supreme Court decision caused an abortion ban (in some places) and abortion restrictions (in others)
3) pixie magic

And I'll give you a hint: no state passed any legislation dealing with abortion on June 24, 2022, so we know it isn't option 1.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Good question, and you've seen diverse answers including God grants them or we are born with them. And many people will call anything they want to do their right, or mistakenly tell police things like, "You have no right to force me out of my vehicle."

But none of that actually confers a right. What does that is the consensus of a community willing to enforce what it calls a right. When the law says one has a right to an abortion on demand under certain circumstances and is willing to bring the force of the law to guarantee it, then ne has that right. When the law will no longer do that and will allow others to prevent or forbid you getting an abortion, and perhaps use the force of law to prevent that abortion, your right has disappeared.
I agree with you. Governments give and enforce rights.
 
Top