Fool Me Twice: Eye For Eye: Matthew 5:38-42

[sealchan]

Jesus teaches that it is common belief that should someone do something wrong to you you can repay them in equal measure by an injustice you do back. But Jesus undercuts this sense of the balance of the scale of justice by saying if someone takes from you without your permission then offer them more freely. Out give their ability to take from you.

My questions are these:

• Is this good advice for victims of abuse?
  
  
• What would Jesus do if the person taking/asking was also knowingly “taking advantage” of your generosity?
  
  
• At what point do you say no in order to preserve your needs?
  

 

[Whitestone]

I believe that the ultimate example for the answer of your three point question can be seen with how Jesus suffered long with Judas and his back handed thievery and unrepentant betrayal of Jesus' innocent blood. Right up to the end, Jesus never called Judas on it but let the cards fall as they would in ultimate judgement... the death of the offender. As no one I know could possibly come close to how Jesus would handle it, the best solution is knowing that He forgives us for not conducting our weak selves exactly as He did.

 

[sealchan]

I believe that the ultimate example for the answer of your three point question can be seen with how Jesus suffered long with Judas and his back handed thievery and unrepentant betrayal of Jesus' innocent blood. Right up to the end, Jesus never called Judas on it but let the cards fall as they would in ultimate judgement... the death of the offender. As no one I know could possibly come close to how Jesus would handle it, the best solution is knowing that He forgives us for not conducting our weak selves exactly as He did.

Certainly Jesus knew Judas was going to be trouble, probably from the start given that he would have perceived Judas' attitude. He allowed Judas' presence and took him into his innermost circle knowing the suffering that Judas would help bring him to.

Perhaps, on a similar note...I've had family members with substance abuse issues living side by side with those who did not. If my home had been reported to child protective services I would have been at risk of loosing my ability to care for some because of the actions of others. By keeping an open door without limits, I risked my ability to have an open door at all.

Something in me would like to be as ideal as Jesus taught and acted and yet I can conceive of situations where giving shelter to those who are not safe risks my ability to give shelter to those who need it and are not a threat to anyone's personal safety.

A more extreme case...does one open the door to a homeless child molester if you have children living in your home? How does this teaching apply to that case?

 

[socharlie]

Jesus teaches that it is common belief that should someone do something wrong to you you can repay them in equal measure by an injustice you do back. But Jesus undercuts this sense of the balance of the scale of justice by saying if someone takes from you without your permission then offer them more freely. Out give their ability to take from you.

My questions are these:

• Is this good advice for victims of abuse?
  
  
• What would Jesus do if the person taking/asking was also knowingly “taking advantage” of your generosity?
  
  
• At what point do you say no in order to preserve your needs?

the way I understand this: it has to be seen in light of evolution of consciousness, Jesus did not address everything to the same static consciousness, this moment is for more advanced consciousness when astral body sufficiently detached from physical.
it definitely on personal level not involving others which can be harmed.

 

[sealchan]

the way I understand this: it has to be seen in light of evolution of consciousness, Jesus did not address everything to the same static consciousness, this moment is for more advanced consciousness when astral body sufficiently detached from physical.
it definitely on personal level not involving others which can be harmed.

So are you saying that this teaching applies mainly to situations where no physical harm would result from the act of giving?

 

[Whitestone]

As a father and ruler of a household, you are the chief monitor of who you should allow in or not. Safety of your members, especially your children, is endorsed; not just physically, but spiritually:
(1Ti 5:8) But if any provideth not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
And if that includes appropriately ridding yourself of one of the family members who has lawlessly gone viral and poses a danger to the rest of you, you have "elements" in place to give us peace in such decisions...
(2Jn 1:9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
(2Jn 1:10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
(2Jn 1:11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Forgiving someone is what Sons of God do. But to trust a non-repentant sinner to dwell under my roof with me and affect my household would make me an infidel.

 

[sealchan]

As a father and ruler of a household, you are the chief monitor of who you should allow in or not. Safety of your members, especially your children, is endorsed; not just physically, but spiritually:
(1Ti 5:8) But if any provideth not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
And if that includes appropriately ridding yourself of one of the family members who has lawlessly gone viral and poses a danger to the rest of you, you have "elements" in place to give us peace in such decisions...
(2Jn 1:9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
(2Jn 1:10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
(2Jn 1:11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Forgiving someone is what Sons of God do. But to trust a non-repentant sinner to dwell under my roof with me and affect my household would make me an infidel.

Well, that is pretty clear and helpful.

But those listening to Jesus preach on the mountainside would not have had the benefit of this scripture...should we understand that trust and good judgment applied to what Jesus was saying for those who were hearing it directly? Or was he saying something more ideal and radical?

Another question...one could understand that one shouldn't allow a dangerous person into one's household based on moral wisdom and a sense of personal responsibility as a "father and ruler of the household". Does the truth of the scripture above come from this personal sense of truth/wisdom or does the truth of the above come from the authority of scripture?

 

[Whitestone]

If we are looking for an "authority", we have an explicit example in the raw naked unbridled Law of God demonstrating how a man was to deal with his "family problem"...

Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

So the answer to your first question can only be "yes", to the "something more ideal and radical"... which is;
(Mat 5:38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
(Mat 5:39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
(Mat 5:40) And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
(Mat 5:41) And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
(Mat 5:42) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
(Mat 5:43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
(Mat 5:44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(Mat 5:45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
(Mat 5:46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
(Mat 5:47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
(Mat 5:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The answer lies in all the things He says. And where we fall short, He has given us Grace. Thank you for not asking me if I've conducted myself perfectly in these things my friend. But I do know this is the perfect Word and that as you lay this before Jesus in deep prayer you will be comforted with His Wise Presence by His Eternal Spirit in you. Blessings of Jesus Forever in your House!

 

[socharlie]

So are you saying that this teaching applies mainly to situations where no physical harm would result from the act of giving?

not only that, I say it generally applies when your consciousness ready to say "I am not of this world" , say you can forgive harm done to you but not to others if pay taxes you are partially responsible for your government bombing civilians, for example.

 

[sealchan]

If we are looking for an "authority", we have an explicit example in the raw naked unbridled Law of God demonstrating how a man was to deal with his "family problem"...

Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

So the answer to your first question can only be "yes", to the "something more ideal and radical"... which is;
(Mat 5:38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
(Mat 5:39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
(Mat 5:40) And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
(Mat 5:41) And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
(Mat 5:42) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
(Mat 5:43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
(Mat 5:44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(Mat 5:45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
(Mat 5:46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
(Mat 5:47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
(Mat 5:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The answer lies in all the things He says. And where we fall short, He has given us Grace. Thank you for not asking me if I've conducted myself perfectly in these things my friend. But I do know this is the perfect Word and that as you lay this before Jesus in deep prayer you will be comforted with His Wise Presence by His Eternal Spirit in you. Blessings of Jesus Forever in your House!

You have certainly answered with clarity regarding a broader perspective. And Deuteronomy would be something on the minds of Jesus' audience. Thank you.

Blessings to you and yours as well.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Jesus teaches that it is common belief that should someone do something wrong to you you can repay them in equal measure by an injustice you do back. But Jesus undercuts this sense of the balance of the scale of justice by saying if someone takes from you without your permission then offer them more freely. Out give their ability to take from you.

See this: The Golden rule or 'eye for an eye?' the 'eye for eye' is about financial compensation. It also seems to require compensation for workers who are injured in the Bible. That being said, Jesus is not strictly talking about financial compensation; but I think he still wants you to be clever about it.

My questions are these:

• Is this good advice for victims of abuse?

Jesus is preaching a particular agenda to Jews. He's saying to take one for the team when the harm is from 'An evil person'. That means just compensation still continues among the just, but he's saying not to seek redress against certain things. Its not advice for victims of abuse, nor would it be good advice generally for them. It is a commentary on Judaism and which practices he recommends. If we take 1 Peter as commentary, then for Christians it is about the times when people are suspicious of Jesus followers. For example: the time when Jesus followers are put out of the synagogue. Another example: if you're a Christian and are too busy doing good to party, some people may find that off putting or unfriendly. Rarely someone may actually accuse you of something, perhaps think you have an alien in your chest, maybe tell you that you aren't welcome somewhere. Peter comments that when falsely accused for the sake of Jesus you should bear it, so I think that it ties into and interprets this comment by Jesus. Its not about being a pushover but is about those times when 'Evil' people oppose you, and I'm suggesting that by 'Evil' he's not referring to just anybody but those who oppose you because of your pursuit of good. You're supposed to prefer winning them over to crushing them. It is I think about this: "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and the one who is wise saves lives. If the righteous receive their due on earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner!" (Proverbs 11:30-31)
Reading between the lines a little here in I Peter, the concept is to win over the opposition. That is what Peter is saying when he talks about the opposition resulting in "Praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." This is the measure you should use when deciding when and how to resist and when to placate.
I Peter 1:6-7 "In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed."
I Peter 4:13 "But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed."

What would Jesus do if the person taking/asking was also knowingly “taking advantage” of your generosity?

He's certainly suggesting something that most people do not like, and this is generally one of his least favorite teachings.

At what point do you say no in order to preserve your needs?

He is talking about interaction with 'Evil' people not just anybody. In other words if the governor is just mean and doesn't like anyone, resist him; but if he is opposing you because he thinks Christians are a conspiracy, give way. This is the kind of 'Evil' that must be won over instead of opposed. I guess it depends upon who you consider to be evil.

 

[sealchan]

See this: The Golden rule or 'eye for an eye?' the 'eye for eye' is about financial compensation. It also seems to require compensation for workers who are injured in the Bible. That being said, Jesus is not strictly talking about financial compensation; but I think he still wants you to be clever about it.

Jesus is preaching a particular agenda to Jews. He's saying to take one for the team when the harm is from 'An evil person'. That means just compensation still continues among the just, but he's saying not to seek redress against certain things. Its not advice for victims of abuse, nor would it be good advice generally for them. It is a commentary on Judaism and which practices he recommends. If we take 1 Peter as commentary, then for Christians it is about the times when people are suspicious of Jesus followers. For example: the time when Jesus followers are put out of the synagogue. Another example: if you're a Christian and are too busy doing good to party, some people may find that off putting or unfriendly. Rarely someone may actually accuse you of something, perhaps think you have an alien in your chest, maybe tell you that you aren't welcome somewhere. Peter comments that when falsely accused for the sake of Jesus you should bear it, so I think that it ties into and interprets this comment by Jesus. Its not about being a pushover but is about those times when 'Evil' people oppose you, and I'm suggesting that by 'Evil' he's not referring to just anybody but those who oppose you because of your pursuit of good. You're supposed to prefer winning them over to crushing them. It is I think about this: "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and the one who is wise saves lives. If the righteous receive their due on earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner!" (Proverbs 11:30-31)
Reading between the lines a little here in I Peter, the concept is to win over the opposition. That is what Peter is saying when he talks about the opposition resulting in "Praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." This is the measure you should use when deciding when and how to resist and when to placate.
I Peter 1:6-7 "In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed."
I Peter 4:13 "But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed."
He's certainly suggesting something that most people do not like, and this is generally one of his least favorite teachings.

He is talking about interaction with 'Evil' people not just anybody. In other words if the governor is just mean and doesn't like anyone, resist him; but if he is opposing you because he thinks Christians are a conspiracy, give way. This is the kind of 'Evil' that must be won over instead of opposed. I guess it depends upon who you consider to be evil.

Thanks. I read the first page of the forum post you linked to. Your other comments are insightful and Bible-based as well. Clearly, I say, we are not to turn our other cheek indiscriminately although I have encountered some who have suggested otherwise.

At this point I am reminded of two things...

One, someone who does evil might be one who needs a friend. Someone who never excepts a deeply felt need for respect or appreciation to ever be met may do an evil act out of a sense of subjective necessity (they can't think of any other reasonable way to have their need met). But showing them that extra step of kindness acknowledges the "perps" needs over their mal-adjusted way of meeting them. In this way you defeat your enemy by making them your friend. You prove to them that they can be respected and appreciated even though they did not believe it.

Two, sometimes our perception of evil is to cover over and to preserve a weakness within ourselves. We get angry at others as a proxy for a fear about our own character and weakness to a particular temptation. Turning to one who would provoke you to a penalizing response and instead opening up to their sense of need in order to more fully address it. This is not necessarily by literally giving them more of what they would take as Jesus' words might suggest, but giving them what they truly need. In this way this scripture probably links in with a lot of other nearby scripture in Matthew coming up shortly (as I take my long, slow walk through Matthew's gospel) that aims to put into his audience an attitude of patience and thoughtfulness about other's actions even when they would appear to be counter to your own sense of justice.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thanks. I read the first page of the forum post you linked to. Your other comments are insightful and Bible-based as well. Clearly, I say, we are not to turn our other cheek indiscriminately although I have encountered some who have suggested otherwise.

At this point I am reminded of two things...

One, someone who does evil might be one who needs a friend. Someone who never excepts a deeply felt need for respect or appreciation to ever be met may do an evil act out of a sense of subjective necessity (they can't think of any other reasonable way to have their need met). But showing them that extra step of kindness acknowledges the "perps" needs over their mal-adjusted way of meeting them. In this way you defeat your enemy by making them your friend. You prove to them that they can be respected and appreciated even though they did not believe it.

Two, sometimes our perception of evil is to cover over and to preserve a weakness within ourselves. We get angry at others as a proxy for a fear about our own character and weakness to a particular temptation. Turning to one who would provoke you to a penalizing response and instead opening up to their sense of need in order to more fully address it. This is not necessarily by literally giving them more of what they would take as Jesus' words might suggest, but giving them what they truly need. In this way this scripture probably links in with a lot of other nearby scripture in Matthew coming up shortly (as I take my long, slow walk through Matthew's gospel) that aims to put into his audience an attitude of patience and thoughtfulness about other's actions even when they would appear to be counter to your own sense of justice.

This is Jesus speaking to other Jews; and he says not 'People who do evil' but 'Evil people'. That wording there matters. The ones he is speaking to already forgive other Jews who are in good standing, because they are 'Good' people. He's saying to forgive non-Jews or those in bad standing. He's saying to forgive Evil people, that's us you and I, outsiders and aliens to the covenants of promise. It is a far more extensive kind of forgiveness than just forgiving slights, very difficult. It is actually a very demanding thing, but its not saying to put up with abuse from family members or rape gangs. This is a different concept. As an example: The early Christians extended forgiveness to everyone. They poured out caring and invitation to all people. They took in orphans and established orphanages and public feeding programs, and they began to educate everyone. This is the kind of forgiveness Jesus is talking about. They became martyrs as well, so in some cases they did give their lives but they didn't just throw their lives away willy-nilly.