For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

[Ingledsva]

As far as I know today's ocean liners are much more than 7 feet long.
...

And they aren't made of wood, for a reason.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Noah's Ark was Not a physical person. The Bible-book Ark was a water-proofed wooden vessel in a rectangular shape.
No persons were bounced around in stormy waters, it was the Ark. The Ark being the size of some modern-day ocean liners Not any persons being so tall as to be out of shape. Houses are even more than 3 stories tall and stand.

Until the earth becomes liquefied beneath them.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Then how does one explain the modern-day scaled-up ocean liners, the scaled-up skyscrapers having No such problems. To me that is because we are Not talking about physical structure but material structure.
The Ark and some of today's ocean liners being similar in size without such problems as an 8 foot person would have.

The difference being between wood, - and todays metals, modern materials, and how they are now constructed.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Help, I can't find watchers mentioned at Daniel 4:17 or is it found in another Bible verse.

Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers (, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

‛ı̂yr

eer

(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to H5782; a watcher, that is, an angel (as guardian): - watcher. - from Strong's

Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and holy one came down from heaven;

Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

*

 

[RabbiO]

All we have is in Verse 1 that states, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

If you notice that after Earth there's a Period to indicate nothing more to be said or done.
That's what a Period indicates at the end of a sentence. Nothing more to be added or said Period.


.

Find me the period in the original Hebrew.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Find me the period in the original Hebrew.

In the original manual scriptures, there were no Periods.

What the scribes did do, when they came to an end of sentence they would drop down two lines, leaving a space between one sentence to another to indicate the end of one sentence and the beginning of another sentence.

Where as to day, we have Periods to indicate the end of a sentence, so we don't have to drop down two lines or so, to indicate the end of a sentence. And the beginning of a new sentence.
Where as we use a comma to indicate a pause between two words,
Where as the scribes would leave a blank space between two words to indicate a pause, a comma

Look at the great Isaiah Scroll which is come to be known as the dead Sea Scroll.
Which is dated to 750 years B.C

Maybe you need to do an in depth study how scribes Written scriptures. Without Periods and Commas.

 

[RabbiO]

In the original manual scriptures, there were no Periods.

What the scribes did do, when they came to an end of sentence they would drop down two lines, leaving a space between one sentence to another to indicate the end of one sentence and the beginning of another sentence.

Where as to day, we have Periods to indicate the end of a sentence, so we don't have to drop down two lines or so, to indicate the end of a sentence. And the beginning of a new sentence.
Where as we use a comma to indicate a pause between two words,
Where as the scribes would leave a blank space between two words to indicate a pause, a comma

Look at the great Isaiah Scroll which is come to be known as the dead Sea Scroll.
Which is dated to 750 years B.C

Maybe you need to do an in depth study how scribes Written scriptures. Without Periods and Commas.

In no particular order, the Great Isaiah scroll is not known as The Dead Sea Scroll. The scroll, itself, does not date to 750 B.C.E.

You probably are aware that, "Maybe you need to do an in depth study how scribes Written scriptures," is substandard English. Nonetheless, I get the gist of what you are trying to say. Apparently, despite my user name or as noted in several of my posts, you have not figured out that I am a rabbi and that I might know a great deal more than you do about scribes and scrolls.

Having said that, if you think you have described spacing in a Torah scroll, you are wrong. Maybe you're the one who needs to do some studying.

 

[Faithofchristian]

In no particular order, the Great Isaiah scroll is not known as The Dead Sea Scroll. The scroll, itself, does not date to 750 B.C.E.

You probably are aware that, "Maybe you need to do an in depth study how scribes Written scriptures," is substandard English. Nonetheless, I get the gist of what you are trying to say. Apparently, despite my user name or as noted in several of my posts, you have not figured out that I am a rabbi and that I might know a great deal more than you do about scribes and scrolls.

Having said that, if you think you have described spacing in a Torah scroll, you are wrong. Maybe you're the one who needs to do some studying.

So you say, many archaeologist scientist have dated the Great Isaiah Scroll to be 750 years B.C.
And have name the Isaiah Scroll, The Dead Sea Scroll. Because it was found there in a cave by the Dead Sea. Back in 1947. By two Shepherd boys looking for their lost goat.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In no particular order, the Great Isaiah scroll is not known as The Dead Sea Scroll. The scroll, itself, does not date to 750 B.C.E.

You probably are aware that, "Maybe you need to do an in depth study how scribes Written scriptures," is substandard English. Nonetheless, I get the gist of what you are trying to say. Apparently, despite my user name or as noted in several of my posts, you have not figured out that I am a rabbi and that I might know a great deal more than you do about scribes and scrolls.

Having said that, if you think you have described spacing in a Torah scroll, you are wrong. Maybe you're the one who needs to do some studying.

He may have conflated when Isaiah was supposedly written with the dates of the scrolls. You are right of course. They are much younger than that:

' Parchment from a number of the Dead Sea Scrolls has been carbon dated. The initial test performed in 1950 was on a piece of linen from one of the caves. This test gave an indicative dating of 33 CE plus or minus 200 years, eliminating early hypotheses relating the scrolls to the medieval period.[57] Since then two large series of tests have been performed on the scrolls themselves. The results were summarized by VanderKam and Flint, who said the tests give "strong reason for thinking that most of the Qumran manuscripts belong to the last two centuries BCE and the first century CE." '

Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you say, many archaeologist scientist have dated the Great Isaiah Scroll to be 750 years B.C.
And have name the Isaiah Scroll, The Dead Sea Scroll. Because it was found there in a cave by the Dead Sea. Back in 1942. By two Shepherd boys looking for their lost goat.

Perhaps you should have done a Google search. It took almost no time at all to see that RabbiO was correct. You are conflating the dating for the book of Isaiah with the Dead Sea Scrolls, the scrolls are not the original. No one has ever claimed that.

Book of Isaiah - Bible Survey

"The Book of Isaiah was written between 701 and 681 B.C."

That was from a Christian based site, not the best sources for dates in general. Modern scholars recognize that there was more than one author and that parts are much more recent than others:

Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia

"
While it is widely accepted that the book of Isaiah is rooted in a historic prophet called Isaiah, who lived in the Kingdom of Judah during the 8th century BCE, it is also widely accepted that this prophet did not write the entire book of Isaiah.[7][24] The observations which have led to this are as follows:

• Historical situation → Chapters 40–55 presuppose that Jerusalem has already been destroyed (they are not framed as prophecy) and the Babylonian exile is already in effect – they speak from a present in which the Exile is about to end. Chapters 56–66 assume an even later situation, in which the people are already returned to Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple is already under way.[25]
• Anonymity → Isaiah's name suddenly stops being used after chapter 39.[26]
• Style → There is a sudden change in style and theology after chapter 40; numerous key words and phrases found in one section are not found in the other.[27]

These observations led scholars to the conclusion that the book can be conveniently divided into three sections, labeled Proto-Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, and Trito-Isaiah.[28] Early modern-period scholars treated Isaiah as independent collections of sayings by three individual prophets, brought together at a much later period, about 70 BCE, to form the present book.[4] The second half of the 20th century saw a marked change in approach, and scholars have begun to detect a deliberate arrangement of materials to give the book an overarching theological message.[29]

The composition history of Isaiah reflects a major difference in the way authorship was regarded in ancient Israel and in modern societies; the ancients did not regard it as inappropriate to supplement an existing work while remaining anonymous.[30] While the authors are anonymous, it is plausible that all of them were priests, and the book may thus reflect Priestly concerns, in opposition to the increasingly successful reform movement of the Deuteronomists.[31]"

 

[Faithofchristian]

So you say, many archaeologist scientist have dated the Great Isaiah Scroll to be 750 years B.C.
And have name the Isaiah Scroll, The Dead Sea Scroll. Because it was found there in a cave by the Dead Sea. Back in 1947. By two Shepherd boys looking for their lost goat.

Perhaps you should have done a Google search. It took almost no time at all to see that RabbiO was correct. You are conflating the dating for the book of Isaiah with the Dead Sea Scrolls, the scrolls are not the original. No one has ever claimed that.

Book of Isaiah - Bible Survey

"The Book of Isaiah was written between 701 and 681 B.C."

That was from a Christian based site, not the best sources for dates in general. Modern scholars recognize that there was more than one author and that parts are much more recent than others:

Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia

"
While it is widely accepted that the book of Isaiah is rooted in a historic prophet called Isaiah, who lived in the Kingdom of Judah during the 8th century BCE, it is also widely accepted that this prophet did not write the entire book of Isaiah.[7][24] The observations which have led to this are as follows:

• Historical situation → Chapters 40–55 presuppose that Jerusalem has already been destroyed (they are not framed as prophecy) and the Babylonian exile is already in effect – they speak from a present in which the Exile is about to end. Chapters 56–66 assume an even later situation, in which the people are already returned to Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple is already under way.[25]
• Anonymity → Isaiah's name suddenly stops being used after chapter 39.[26]
• Style → There is a sudden change in style and theology after chapter 40; numerous key words and phrases found in one section are not found in the other.[27]

These observations led scholars to the conclusion that the book can be conveniently divided into three sections, labeled Proto-Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, and Trito-Isaiah.[28] Early modern-period scholars treated Isaiah as independent collections of sayings by three individual prophets, brought together at a much later period, about 70 BCE, to form the present book.[4] The second half of the 20th century saw a marked change in approach, and scholars have begun to detect a deliberate arrangement of materials to give the book an overarching theological message.[29]

The composition history of Isaiah reflects a major difference in the way authorship was regarded in ancient Israel and in modern societies; the ancients did not regard it as inappropriate to supplement an existing work while remaining anonymous.[30] While the authors are anonymous, it is plausible that all of them were priests, and the book may thus reflect Priestly concerns, in opposition to the increasingly successful reform movement of the Deuteronomists.[31]"

I did a Google search, and found the Isaiah Scroll called the Dead Sea Scroll. Because the Isaiah Scroll was found in a cave by the Dead Sea. Back at 1947 by two Shepherd boys looking for their lost goat.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I did a Google search, and found the Isaiah Scroll called the Dead Sea Scroll. Because the Isaiah Scroll was found in a cave by the Dead Sea. Back at 1947 by two Shepherd boys looking for their lost goat.

Did you read it? Why didn't you link it? Calling it the "Isaiah Scroll" only implies that it was a scroll on the book of Isaiah. It does not say or even imply that it was the original. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated. Your claims are incorrect. The original scrolls do not exit any longer. No scholar has ever claimed that the Dead Sea Scrolls were originals.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Did you read it? Why didn't you link it? Calling it the "Isaiah Scroll" only implies that it was a scroll on the book of Isaiah. It does not say or even imply that it was the original. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated. Your claims are incorrect. The original scrolls do not exit any longer. No scholar has ever claimed that the Dead Sea Scrolls were originals.

So how is your claim to be right, so your claim can be incorrect also.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So how is your claim to be right, so your claim can be incorrect also.

Did you not see that I supported my claim with links to various sources? If you doubt my sources I can always find more. You made an unsupported claim that only demonstrated you did not understand what you had read in the past.

When one makes a claim one must be willing to support it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

In the bathtub experiment, No matter how much force was applied to the water they could Not break the small-scaled model Ark. The Ark was Not resisting the waves as a steering ship would.

Did they account for the weight and movement of all inside?

Don't understand how the size of a cork has any bearing.

Is a cork hollow and filled with living beings?

To me, you are calling the God of the Bible a liar as if He could Not know how to keep the Ark afloat.

God doesn't know a lot of things even someone failing at humanity 101 should understand.

The NEW governmental heavens over righteous mankind or righteous society on earth is coming under Christ's reign.

How righteous was everyone while Jesus was here? Why should we expect different results?

As has been pointed out multiple times by science, they could not have put two of every animal on the ark. It would not hold them.

Indeed. You can't even put them all in pokeballs. It's STILL too small.

Hitchcock's "The Birds" would be like kiddy fare in comparison. The woodpeckers would only have the boat to peck holes in, = blub-blub-blub.

*nearly chokes on supper*

Because of it's width to length, - it would have split apart in the wave turmoil.

And pitch is flammable. No one light a cigarette.

The difference being between wood, - and todays metals, modern materials, and how they are now constructed.

Ken Ham couldn't even build it just with wood and had to use steel and concrete.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Did they account for the weight and movement of all inside?
Is a cork hollow and filled with living beings?
And pitch is flammable. No one light a cigarette.
Ken Ham couldn't even build it just with wood and had to use steel and concrete.

Sorry for my not being clear about a cork. I just meant as a cork bobs on water's surface the only thing the Ark had to do was float. As a cork does Not have to steer to go anywhere, the Ark did Not have to steer to go anywhere.
Sure, no cork would Not be the size of Noah's Ark and would Not weigh as much but both float in the water.
Somehow I just can't picture Noah and company smoking, and for all we know the animals were hibernating.
As for further details we will find them out during Christ's coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry for my not being clear about a cork. I just meant as a cork bobs on water's surface the only thing the Ark had to do was float. As a cork does Not have to steer to go anywhere, the Ark did Not have to steer to go anywhere.
Sure, no cork would Not be the size of Noah's Ark and would Not weigh as much but both float in the water.
Somehow I just can't picture Noah and company smoking, and for all we know the animals were hibernating.
As for further details we will find them out during Christ's coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth.

But that is wrong. Once again waves travel on the surface of large bodies of water. Whether it was making way or not, the waves would still lift the Ark unevenly, after all you yourself admitted that it was just a box. As the wave advance it would lift one end of the Ark before the other. It would stress and distort it.

But as I said, engineering is only one of the many lines of reasoning that tells us that there was no flood. How do you get over five vertical miles of water added and taken away from the Earth and yet no sign at all that that happened?

Sooner or later you will realize that when a person claims that the Flood was real, that person is also calling his God a liar.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Sorry for my not being clear about a cork. I just meant as a cork bobs on water's surface the only thing the Ark had to do was float. As a cork does Not have to steer to go anywhere, the Ark did Not have to steer to go anywhere.
Sure, no cork would Not be the size of Noah's Ark and would Not weigh as much but both float in the water.
Somehow I just can't picture Noah and company smoking, and for all we know the animals were hibernating.
As for further details we will find them out during Christ's coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth.

You were clear about a cork. A cork and a wooden box with lots of living things in it are two different things and will have different properties.

They didn't have lightbulbs. They would've used oil lamps or torches ... on a wooden boat ... with hay and pitch and ....

Why would Jesus give us the scoop about the flood? Is that on his long list of "should have's"?

Jesus: Gee, guys, I know I was supposed to die for your sins and fix it so no one sinned anymore but that didn't happen so I'm back to fix it, but first, let me tell you some Sunday school stories....

 

[Hawkins]

It's a flood. Yet how much humans know about catastrophes ever happened in the past, the past humans claim to be 14 billion years?

The time window humans get to know science is about 500 years. We do you speculation from this 500 year window to project for what could possibly happened in 14 billion years. How accurate can this be?

The Bible is a human account of testimony. Noah is not a modern scientists. In term of science, we don't have a second instance for us to classify the catastrophe a "flood" as we never ever speculated a flood covering the top of a high mountain.

If Noah's description is correct, the flood is only literally a flood. Scientifically it can be any catastrophe lying beyond our knowledge.

 

[Hawkins]

Sooner or later you will realize that when a person claims that the Flood was real, that person is also calling his God a liar.

That remains your own bold assertion!