For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

[Subduction Zone]

It's a flood. Yet how much humans know about catastrophes ever happened in the past, the past humans claim to be 14 billion years?

The time window humans get to know science is about 500 years. We do you speculation from this 500 year window to project for what could possibly happened in 14 billion years. How accurate can this be?

The Bible is a human account of testimony. Noah is not a modern scientists. In term of science, we don't have a second instance for us to classify the catastrophe a "flood" as we never ever speculated a flood covering the top of a high mountain.

If Noah's description is correct, the flood is only literally a flood. Scientifically it can be any catastrophe lying beyond our knowledge.

Um,, no. Events on that order would have left undeniable evidence. Sadly for your side there is no valid evidence for the flood. And if the story was true we would observe specific genetic effects. Again we know that is not the case. And no, our knowledge of the past is not "speculation". Many creationists have no idea is done so they assume that others are as ignorant as they are.


Would you like to know why we know that the flood of Noah never happened? I will let you even pick where we start from.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That remains your own bold assertion!

I should have been a bit more specific. If a believer can discuss this honestly sooner or later they will learn that they are calling their God a liar. Most turn out to be cowards and run away long before that happens. They live on in ignorance.

 

[Hawkins]

So you say, many archaeologist scientist have dated the Great Isaiah Scroll to be 750 years B.C.
And have name the Isaiah Scroll, The Dead Sea Scroll. Because it was found there in a cave by the Dead Sea. Back in 1947. By two Shepherd boys looking for their lost goat.

That's at best a guess.

The first thing is the availability of original document. Humans are bad keepers of original documents. They virtually don't have any original documents written 2000 years ago. What they have (which is a deception) are discrete pages written in stones, tablets or scrolls. Under most circumstance you don't need to assume that they are have a full book on hand when they said that "it's written in 600 BC".

That said. The 600 BCE they are talking about at best are the earliest available scrolls at hand. It says nothing about how any book is originated. It's like wrote a book in 2000, the book existed for a while then it's burnt. Later, some humans found a copy of your book which is dated to be published in 2002, it however says nothing about which year you actually wrote your book.

 

[Hawkins]

Um,, no. Events on that order would have left undeniable evidence. Sadly for your side there is no valid evidence for the flood. And if the story was true we would observe specific genetic effects. Again we know that is not the case. And no, our knowledge of the past is not "speculation". Many creationists have no idea is done so they assume that others are as ignorant as they are.


Would you like to know why we know that the flood of Noah never happened? I will let you even pick where we start from.

You've got the reality wrong!

What evidence do you have for what you just did yesterday, the day before yesterday, a week ago....a year ago?

There are 70 billion humans exactly like you who don't have their own evidence of their deeds and speeches. This is the reality you failed to live with!

 

[Hawkins]

I should have been a bit more specific. If a believer can discuss this honestly sooner or later they will learn that they are calling their God a liar. Most turn out to be cowards and run away long before that happens. They live on in ignorance.

I discussed with your kind more than 10 years. The arguments your kind can come up with are usually so boring to last long enough.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's at best a guess.

The first thing is the availability of original document. Humans are bad keepers of original documents. They virtually don't have any original documents written 2000 years ago. What they have (which is a deception) are discrete pages written in stones, tablets or scrolls. Under most circumstance you don't need to assume that they are have a full book on hand when they said that "it's written in 600 BC".

That said. The 600 BCE they are talking about at best are the earliest available scrolls at hand. It says nothing about how any book is originated. It's like wrote a book in 2000, the book existed for a while then it's burnt. Later, some humans found a copy of your book which is dated to be published in 2002, it however says nothing about which year you actually wrote your book.

The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated with C14 dating. They were never thought to be the "original document". The dating for the original writing of Isaiah is based upon other evidence. People can get confused and conflate the Dead Sea Scrolls with the original.

Need sources? I can present them.

 

[Hawkins]

The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated with C14 dating. They were never thought to be the "original document". The dating for the original writing of Isaiah is based upon other evidence. People can get confused and conflate the Dead Sea Scrolls with the original.

Need sources? I can present them.

What's the point of dating the Dead Sea Scrolls. It shows what?

Dead Sea Scrolls are in caves once lived by the Essenes. Do you know what this could mean? The Dead Sea Scrolls only said that we can reconcile to tell that today's version of Bible is not baseless. They don't tell how the Bible is originated. They are two different things.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You've got the reality wrong!

What evidence do you have for what you just did yesterday, the day before yesterday, a week ago....a year ago?

There 70 billion humans like you who don't have their own evidence of their deeds and speeches. This is the reality you failed to live with!

It depends upon what I did.

And don't tell me that I have reality wrong. I am not the science denier here. Just because you may not know how we know there was no flood does not mean that others do not have that knowledge. Let's try to keep away from what you don't know and work on what others do know.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What's the point of dating the Dead Sea Scrolls. It's shows what?

It tells us when they were written. That was not sure until they were dated. They are rather old and it tells us what the various books of the Bible said at that time.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What's the point of dating the Dead Sea Scrolls. It shows what?

Dead Sea Scrolls are in caves once lived by the Essenes. Do you know what this could mean? The Dead Sea Scrolls only said that we can reconcile to tell that today's version of Bible is not baseless. They don't tell how the Bible is originated.

No one has said that today's version of the Bible is baseless. It is largely a book of myths, but knowing where the myths came from can help us to understand the peoples of that time. A black and white fallacy, all or nothing, is perhaps one of the easiest errors to show to be wrong.

 

[Hawkins]

It tells us when they were written. That was not sure until they were dated. They are rather old and it tells us what the various books of the Bible said at that time.

Geez! If you found a history book in today's library, does it mean that the book is written today?

Your argument here is a joke. That's why your kind is so boring!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Geez! If you found a history book in today's library, does it mean that the book is written today?

Your argument here is a joke. That's why your kind is so boring!

We are not going to get anywhere if you cannot follow a train of thought. One thing that we have learned from the Dead Sea Scrolls is how the stories of the Bible have changed even since then. For example take the David and Goliath story. As told today it is self refuting. A giant the modern height of Goliath would not be a might warrior. He would be a bed ridden invalid (some familiarity with the sciences and the square/cube law would help here). In the Dead Sea Scrolls has a height of only about six foot nine. At that height he would be a "giant" especially since the average male height was on the order of 5'2" back then. He could also be a mighty warrior.

Goliath - Wikipedia

Just because you can't follow an argument does not make it a joke. If anything it reflects poorly upon you. Let's try to work on why we know that there was no flood. You are all over the place here. It appears that you are afraid to try to learn.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You do realize that the flood can be shown to be a myth from all sorts of different approaches. For example if you use the Bible to find a date you end up at a time when certain peoples of the Earth somehow managed to ignore over five miles of water that appeared out of nowhere. Civilizations keep existing right through the various times of the supposed flood.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But that is wrong. Once again waves travel on the surface of large bodies of water. Whether it was making way or not, the waves would still lift the Ark unevenly, after all you yourself admitted that it was just a box. As the wave advance it would lift one end of the Ark before the other. It would stress and distort it.
But as I said, engineering is only one of the many lines of reasoning that tells us that there was no flood. How do you get over five vertical miles of water added and taken away from the Earth and yet no sign at all that that happened?
Sooner or later you will realize that when a person claims that the Flood was real, that person is also calling his God a liar.

Since none of us were in the Ark we just don't know how unevenly the Ark moved because God was behind it.
So, to me just how much distortion and stress was upon the Ark we don't know.
I'm not saying there was No distortion or stress because the huge structure now on Mt. Ararat did at some point (after landing) did break into two sections.
The ' sign ' so to speak, about a 'global Flood with only a few survivors' are very many similar stories found all over the Earth including earth's islands.
To me, the point is Not that we can't answer all questions, but that because the Earth was full of violence according to Genesis 6:11 indicates that if there was Not divine involvement those violent people would have done away with all righteous or upright persons. God's purpose is that Earth be filled with righteous people.
That earthly purpose is soon to be realized here on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as described at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40. Then, ALL will see the God of the Bible is Not a liar.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Bible is a human account of testimony. Noah is not a modern scientists. In term of science, we don't have a second instance for us to classify the catastrophe a "flood" as we never ever speculated a flood covering the top of a high mountain.
If Noah's description is correct, the flood is only literally a flood. Scientifically it can be any catastrophe lying beyond our knowledge.

Before the Flood, any mountainous areas could very well have been much lower than we think of mountains today.
The Flood waters could have pushed earth around creating deep valleys and much higher mountains than originally existing at the time of Eden. In other words, lower mountains would mean reaching the tops of them much sooner with less flood waters.

 

[Darkstorn]

Since none of us were in the Ark we just don't know how unevenly the Ark moved because God was behind it.

Firstly, isn't "god behind everything" by definition? Therefore, how do you pick which things caused by your god we can know, and which we can't? And secondly, it leads me to this:

God's purpose is that Earth be filled with righteous people.

How can you even begin to make educated guesses as to the purpose of god?

You just said we don't know how a boat of certain dimensions behaves in water. But apparently you have absolutely no trouble knowing the purpose of god.

Before the Flood, any mountainous areas could very well have been much lower than we think of mountains today.
The Flood waters could have pushed earth around creating deep valleys and much higher mountains than originally existing at the time of Eden. In other words, lower mountains would mean reaching the tops of them much sooner with less flood waters.

Just no. Basic education should tell you that it takes a LONG time for large changes to occur geographically. And we're now talking about a time span of "just" thousands of years. Which in this context is a NOT a lot.

If there were such huge changes compared to back then, we'd have the evidence for it. But here's the thing: We don't.

So it didn't happen the way you're imagining it there.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You were clear about a cork. A cork and a wooden box with lots of living things in it are two different things and will have different properties.
They didn't have lightbulbs. They would've used oil lamps or torches ... on a wooden boat ... with hay and pitch and ..
Why would Jesus give us the scoop about the flood? Is that on his long list of "should have's"?
Jesus: Gee, guys, I know I was supposed to die for your sins and fix it so no one sinned any more but that didn't happen so I'm back to fix it, but first, let me tell you some Sunday school stories....

I find Sunday school stories are usually just that, and usually Not in harmony with Scripture.
Since we can Not stop sinning is why Jesus' ransom covers our sins.
If we deliberately, intentionally, on purpose, willfully practice sin Jesus' ransom does Not cover such sins.
Remember: the deliberate sins of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26 are Not forgivable sins.
During Jesus' coming 1,000-year reign over Earth is when Satan will be locked up for a thousand years.
Without Satan's influence on us imperfect people, and with enemy death being No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8 then we can become perfectly healthy as Adam and Eve originally were.
We will be healthy to the point that physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually we will be only upright in thinking.
In other words, we will only lean / toward righteousness and uprightness thus sin will be out of the picture unless we absolutely deliberately choose to act like Satan is.

Yes, I suppose one could say the Flood is on Jesus' long list of Matthew chapters 24 and Matthew chapter 25.
The connection to the Flood is Not about the Ark but about people's behaviors or actions. If we are violent in nature as the people of Noah's day were, and if we ignore, for example, Jesus' instructions of Matthew 24:14 to tell others about the good news of God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 as being the real solution to today's mankind's troubles, then as Noah informed the people of his day about how violence would end, they could Not say they had No idea.

The Ark did have windows right below the roof to let light in.
If the Ark was in several decks then the open center of the Ark could have easily been away from the pitch (tar) so that candle light or oil lamp light would have also been away from the pitch (tar). Plus, daylight could have shown down to the center of the Ark's lowest level.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Firstly, isn't "god behind everything" by definition? Therefore, how do you pick which things caused by your god we can know, and which we can't? And secondly, it leads me to this:
How can you even begin to make educated guesses as to the purpose of god?
You just said we don't know how a boat of certain dimensions behaves in water. But apparently you have absolutely no trouble knowing the purpose of god.
Just no. Basic education should tell you that it takes a LONG time for large changes to occur geographically. And we're now talking about a time span of "just" thousands of years. Which in this context is a NOT a lot.
If there were such huge changes compared to back then, we'd have the evidence for it. But here's the thing: We don't.
So it didn't happen the way you're imagining it there.

In the composite sign that Jesus gave us in chapter 24 of Matthew and chapter 25 No where does Jesus say God is the cause of these troubles, but I find Jesus is forewarning us that such things would be happening on Earth before the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth beings.

So, God allows us to choose, God does Not bully or force us into serving Him.
It is God's enemy, our enemy, Satan who challenges ALL of us at Job 2:4-5
Touch our ' flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
Under favorable conditions Adam and Eve proved un-faithful.
Under adverse conditions both Job and Jesus proved faithful and so can we. We too can prove Satan a liar.

Genesis 1:28 is Not a guess, but a recorded Scripture that God's purpose is that we all be descendants of father Adam and mother Eve, and we are to populate the Earth and take care of Earth and care of animal kind.

In Scripture God would know how to safeguard the Ark. We will know more during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth. At the end of the thousand years, according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Jesus hands back God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 back to his God. That does Not mean an end of a thousand-year life span but that the purpose of the kingdom is completed so that all on Earth will have everlasting life on Earth, all on Earth will live forever on Earth. They are the humble meek who inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11.

 

[Darkstorn]

In the composite sign that Jesus gave us in chapter 24 of Matthew and chapter 25 No where does Jesus say God is the cause of these troubles, but I find Jesus is forewarning us that such things would be happening on Earth before the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth beings.

So, God allows us to choose, God does Not bully or force us into serving Him.
It is God's enemy, our enemy, Satan who challenges ALL of us at Job 2:4-5
Touch our ' flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
Under favorable conditions Adam and Eve proved un-faithful.
Under adverse conditions both Job and Jesus proved faithful and so can we. We too can prove Satan a liar.

Genesis 1:28 is Not a guess, but a recorded Scripture that God's purpose is that we all be descendants of father Adam and mother Eve, and we are to populate the Earth and take care of Earth and care of animal kind.

In Scripture God would know how to safeguard the Ark. We will know more during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth. At the end of the thousand years, according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Jesus hands back God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 back to his God. That does Not mean an end of a thousand-year life span but that the purpose of the kingdom is completed so that all on Earth will have everlasting life on Earth, all on Earth will live forever on Earth. They are the humble meek who inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11.

I didn't think it would be possible for someone to miss the point this hard. None of what you say there has anything to do with what I said.

And the point was that YOU are making contradictory claims. I made no claims of the bible so why are you quoting scripture to me?

My post was about you saying overly naive and contradictory things.

I don't think i've ever managed to get a reply from you that actually has anything to do with the post you are replying to. Very frustrating.

Read my post better and try again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Since none of us were in the Ark we just don't know how unevenly the Ark moved because God was behind it.
So, to me just how much distortion and stress was upon the Ark we don't know.

Correction, you don't know. That does not mean others can't know.

I'm not saying there was No distortion or stress because the huge structure now on Mt. Ararat did at some point (after landing) did break into two sections.
The ' sign ' so to speak, about a 'global Flood with only a few survivors' are very many similar stories found all over the Earth including earth's islands.

Yes, myths have similarities. That is commonplace. So wha t?

To me, the point is Not that we can't answer all questions, but that because the Earth was full of violence according to Genesis 6:11 indicates that if there was Not divine involvement those violent people would have done away with all righteous or upright persons. God's purpose is that Earth be filled with righteous people.

Let's leave the failures of your god out of the conversation for now.r

That earthly purpose is soon to be realized here on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as described at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40. Then, ALL will see the God of the Bible is Not a liar.

But you are telling us that your God is a liar. Let's go over that first.