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For LDS only...some tricky questions

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Can only LDS answer please. I originally posted this in their DIR but as Im not LDS that isnt really appropriate.

Hope an LDS member can help!

Hi all,

As some of you may know, I used to be LDS (about 10years ago) but left for a variety of reasons after some research. I'll admit that most of my research was from critics but their claims seemed to be backed up by LDS scriptures, documents, church history etc. I've never been able to find an "LDS answer to the critics" type thing! Whether or not it is something which is actually believed and if so what the explanation is. I've looked into many churches and most have their problems (mostly brought up by critics) so I understand that some things are taken out of context, misunderstood etc.

Would it be OK if I posted some of the issues here to hear your responses? I have posted on another forums but its very anti-mormon and I think most of the LDS there won't be forthcoming as they will think that is my purpose. I've thought about asking on Mormon.org but I'm aware most are missionaries and for some reason don't feel right asking them.

In a completely unrelated topic, these forums seem very quiet these days?
 

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Katzpurs post in the LDS DIR:

"Of course you may ask some "tricky" questions, and I'd be happy to send you some links to some excellent "LDS answer to the critics" type sites. The LDS DIR isn't super active for one reason. Most people don't want to just ask questions and get answers. They want to debate. There's no problem with that, other than that things mostly just end up going around in circles and getting nasty. On the DIR forums, as you know, only actual adherents (i.e. believing members) of the religion being discussed may respond. If you feel comfortable that they are going to be honest in their answers, then it's probably your best source ofinformation.

So, hey... let's get started."


Thanks Katz! OK first one is quite a big topic on its own but is in regards to the nature of God. Youll have to forgive me as its been so long since I researched this fully, I cant remember which bits were from critics but also in LDS literature etc and which bits were just critics ideas. Ill put it all out there and hopefully you can help me with the reality!

Ok here goes!

God is not omniscient as he was once a man who achieved exaltation by following certain rules (some critics mention a council of gods or something but that bits new to me). Brigham taught that Adam was God but LDS also teach that Adam was Michael? The faithful becoming Gods and ruling over their own planets

(there is more but my minds gone blank, hopefully you get the idea!)

Oh and links to LDS answers to critics will be great! Thanks
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Can only LDS answer please. I originally posted this in their DIR but as Im not LDS that isnt really appropriate.
Actually, it's entirely appropriate. I think you may have just misunderstand the moderator's comments. Anyone may ask a question in a DIR forum. But if you were to ask a question that you believed you didn't get a completely accurate answer to, you would not have the right to turn the discussion into a debate. You'd basically have to respond with a "Thank you," and let it go at that. Technically, only LDS people should be able to post in a Same Faith Debates thread that was specified to be LDS Only. (That would eliminate you from the conversation right off the bat. ;)) At any rate, I think we all know that you just want answers to your questions. Asking them in this forum may just result in a more "lively" discussion, that's all.
 

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Actually, it's entirely appropriate. I think you may have just misunderstand the moderator's comments. Anyone may ask a question in a DIR forum. But if you were to ask a question that you believed you didn't get a completely accurate answer to, you would not have the right to turn the discussion into a debate. You'd basically have to respond with a "Thank you," and let it go at that. Technically, only LDS people should be able to post in a Same Faith Debates thread that was specified to be LDS Only. (That would eliminate you from the conversation right off the bat. ;)) At any rate, I think we all know that you just want answers to your questions. Asking them in this forum may just result in a more "lively" discussion, that's all.

Im starting to feel a bit like a yoyo lol :) can we keep it here now just for ease?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thanks Katz! OK first one is quite a big topic on its own but is in regards to the nature of God. Youll have to forgive me as its been so long since I researched this fully, I cant remember which bits were from critics but also in LDS literature etc and which bits were just critics ideas. Ill put it all out there and hopefully you can help me with the reality!

Ok here goes!

God is not omniscient as he was once a man who achieved exaltation by following certain rules (some critics mention a council of gods or something but that bits new to me). Brigham taught that Adam was God but LDS also teach that Adam was Michael? The faithful becoming Gods and ruling over their own planets.
Wow, you really picked a big one to get started, didn't you? :D The Church leadership has stated repeatedly that all official doctrine is contained within the "Standard Works" (i.e. The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price), and that if a member hears something taught that cannot be substantiated in one of these four volumes of scripture, then it is to be understood as being one person's opinion. That's not saying it's false doctrine, but it's not saying it's true, either. It's simply someone's personal interpretation.

We have no official doctrine as to God's beginnings. Some (probably many) do believe that He was once a man who fulfilled the same role in a world long since gone as His Son, Jesus Christ, would later fulfill for us. John 5:19-20 says, "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel." I have heard this scripture used as an argument for the belief that what Jesus was doing, He'd seen His Father do in another world. That is the only actual scripture reference I can think of that could conceivably be used to say that this is "official doctrine," but it seems to me to be a little too vague as to be really conclusive.

Of course, Joseph Smith did teach (in the funeral sermon known as "The King Follett Discourse") that God was once a man. He was pretty straightforward in saying that. Interestingly, though, although it could have been canonized at any time during the past nearly 175 years, it never has been. To me that says that the matter is still up in the air as far as "revealed truth" is concerned. I once read a little story that made sense to me and I have repeated it before (though not on this forum, as I recall) when people have insisted that God has always been God and that LDS teachings are heretical. I'll post it for you now...

Think of the main character, Teresa, as representing God.

Teresa worked in a store of a large supermarket chain, climbing up the ranks from stocker, to cashier, to assistant supervisor, to supervisor, to assistant manager. After being assistant manager for a couple of years, she was transferred to a new store in a small town in a part of the country where this particular supermarket chain had never been before. The store was to open within a month and Teresa was to be the new store manager.

Teresa managed the new store for 30 years and finally retired when the store was closed due to down-sizing. She was well-known and was liked by her workers and customers in the community. She was known by everyone as the store manager since there was only one supermarket in town. At her retirement party, Joey, a life-long friend of hers, spoke about working with Teresa when they were both cashiers. People in the community were surprised since they'd always thought of Teresa as the store manager and never as a cashier. Those who only knew Teresa from the time she was a store manager ridiculed Joey, saying he was wrong since Teresa was a store manager and was never a cashier. Joey also talked about Jeff and Peter who were also store managers, who were mutual friends of Teresa and Joey. The people of the community were outraged to hear Joey refer to these two other individuals as store managers when they knew the only store manager there had ever been was Teresa.

Here we have two seemingly contradictory views of Teresa and her position. The community only understood Teresa's relationship with their community, but Joey saw Teresa's relationship from a different, and more expansive, point of view. The community only knew that Teresa was always the store manager. There weren't any store managers before her and there would be none after her. Furthermore, she was there before the store opened and would continue to be a part of their community after it closed.

What was Teresa doing before she became the store manager? No one in the community had ever even thought about this. They knew Teresa from a perspective that did not allow for her existence outside of her position as the once-and-forever store manager.

Traditional Christianity holds to a "universe" cosmology, while Mormonism holds to a "multiverse" cosmology (although we don't typically use that word). Most of the Abrahamic religions (I don't know about the others) think of our universe as being the only universe that has ever existed or ever will exist. The Latter-day Saint view is not so restrictive. We believe (1) what the Bible says about God (that He is the only God who has ever existed or will exist) (2) and at the same time, believe that Joseph Smith could have been right when he said that God "who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, was a man like one of you." The first statement explains God's existence from the perspective of a universe (one creation), while the second statement explains God's existence from the perspective of a multiverse (multiple creations).

I know that's not the only question you asked, but I am in the middle of preparing a Relief Society lesson I have to give tomorrow, and will have to respond to your other questions either later today (if I feel that I've done all I can on my lesson) or tomorrow after church. I won't just drop the matter, though. I will get back to you.
 
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Orontes

Master of the Horse
Ok here goes!

God is not omniscient as he was once a man who achieved exaltation by following certain rules (some critics mention a council of gods or something but that bits new to me). Brigham taught that Adam was God but LDS also teach that Adam was Michael? The faithful becoming Gods and ruling over their own planets

(there is more but my minds gone blank, hopefully you get the idea!)

Oh and links to LDS answers to critics will be great! Thanks

Hello,

To your questions:


Origins of Deity: To idea God was once a man, this comes from two sermons from Joseph Smith. The King Follet Discourse (a funeral sermon given in 1844) and the Sermon in the Grove (a location just to the East side of the Nauvoo Temple, also in 1844). They are not part of Mormon scripture. Why not? The sermons were not written by Joseph Smith, but rather are the recollections of some who were present. There are a few versions and they are not consistent with each other. It is unclear what Smith actually said. No single version has ever been put forward to become scripture. Therefore, no Mormon is bound by them. However, the idea the Father was incarnated at some point, like the Son, is/was a common belief among Mormons.


Per a Council of Gods, or multiplicity of gods: Mormonism is arbitrary in its use of god. It can refer to a being, but also refer to a way of being. Any who fully participate in that way of being are therefore divine. This is taken as the ultimate goal: exaltation, a oneness with Deity. This understanding is helpful in understanding how Jehovah, the God of Israel, could condescend to be born a man, Jesus of Nazareth and then suffer through all the toils of the flesh. Once separated from that unity (the Godhead) Jesus could experience all that man do, including fear, isolation etc.. I should also point out that the notion of a multiplicity of gods or council of gods is part and parcel of early Jewish Thought and can be found both in the Old Testament and Ugaritic Texts.

I'll give two simple examples:

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." Gen. 3:22

"God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment -Psalm 82:1



The Adam-God Doctrine: this is an idea taught by Brigham Young. It can be found in his various discourses. There is no revelation on the subject, there is nothing put forward as scripture on the subject. I haven't found any other period Mormon who held the idea. I know Orson Pratt (an apostle during the same time period, argued with Young over this subject multiple times). Why would Young hold this idea? It appears to be Brigham Young's misunderstanding of some of Joseph Smith's sermons during the tail end of the Nauvoo Period. My sense of Brigham Young is he wasn't someone gifted in dealing with theoretical subject matter, the speculative arena or world of ideas. I think he was better disposed to the practical: organization and administration which served the Church well during its exodus to Utah.



Per deification: Mormons hold that deification or exaltation is the ultimate goal of life. What does this mean? There is no notion of ruling personal planets, or something akin to divine planetary fiefdoms. It means to be one with Deity. It is atonement: at-one-ment, to be one with Heavenly Father. How is this done? It does not mean the erasure of the self or personhood. It means being part of an indwelling loving relationship where you know as you are known. Thinking of the relationship of the Godhead, the principle of eternal marriage and families sealed together forever captures the idea. The idea of deification (or theosis) is not unique to Mormonism. Deification has been part of the Christian Movement from its earliest writings. It can be found in the New Testament, to the writings of multiple Patristic Fathers ( Christian theologians before the Ecumenical Councils) and on into the emergence of the Orthodox Tradition(s). Deification is part of the theology of Eastern Orthodoxy and can be found in the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. It is only with Protestantism that the idea became, among some, heretical. Let me give you some simple examples:


"The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods" - Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, article 460.


One example from Eastern Orthodox teaching:

-"First, deification is not something reserved for a few select initiates, but something intended for all alike. The Orthodox Church believes it is the normal goal for every Christian without exception." –Eastern Orthodox Bishop Kallistos (author of "The Orthodox Church")

Here are a few examples from Christian antiquity:

"The Logos of God, Jesus Christ our Lord . . . was made that which we are, in order that he might perfect us to be what he is. – Irenaeus (2nd Cen), Haer. 4.33.4


"We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods" -Irenaeus (2nd Cen)


"Those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of "gods" since they are destined to be enthroned with the other "gods" who are ranked next below the savior" -Clement of Alexandria (2nd Cen), 'Stromata 7:10'

" Therefore He was not man, and then became God, but He was God, and then became man, and that to deify us." –Athanasius (4th Cen), Against the Arians, 1.39

"But He himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying He makes sons of God. For He has given them power to become the sons of God, (John 1:12). If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." –St. Augustine (5th Cen), On the Psalms, 50:2.

Does that help?
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Okay, here are my answers to your two remaining questions...

Brigham taught that Adam was God but LDS also teach that Adam was Michael?
This is a great example of an anomaly. Here's what I mean... Basically, an anomaly is a glitch. There are scientific anomalies and historical anomalies; there are even anomalies in religion. One such anomaly in Christianity concerns what Paul says in 1Corinthians 15:29: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" This is the only mention in the Bible of proxy baptism, but since it's so straightforward and to the point -- proxy baptisms were being performed in early Christian communities -- most Christians just throw up their hands in frustration when asked to explain this verse. They don't believe in baptism for the dead, but Paul seemed to. Consequently, they kind of brush it under the rug and admit that they simply don't know enough about what Paul meant to formulate a doctrine. In terms of anomalies in the LDS religion, an anomaly would be a statement made by an LDC Church leader that seems to be completely out of line with all other statements on the same doctrine. It may even contradict commonly accepted doctrine (as is the case with the Adam-God theory). Brigham Young did, in fact, make some rather bizarre statements concerning Adam being God that even our leaders are baffled by. They contradict not only established doctrine -- which is that Adam was known as Michael in the premortal life -- but they also contradict other statements which Brigham Young himself made. LDS scholars have been trying to figure out what Brigham Young said and what he meant by what he said for over a hundred and twenty-five years. Unfortunately, Brigham Young isn't around to ask. The thing is, this was never LDS doctrine. I'm 67 now, and I probably never even heard mention of the Adam-God theory until 15 or 20 years ago. That means that until I was at least 47 years old, I was completely clueless that this concept had ever even existed. That, in and of itself, ought to be evidence enough that this is not something we need to stress over. If it were LDS doctrine, it would be taught in General Conference and as a part of LDS curriculum. I'd venture a guess that few Latter-day Saints outside of those specifically interested in apologetics even know about this teaching.

The faithful becoming Gods and ruling over their own planets.
Easy one! Since our critics love to ridicule us, this is one doctrine that they have really outdone themselves in terms of parodying and caricaturing what our actual belief is. We are frequently accused of believing that they can, at some point in the future, become "Gods." Understandably, to many who do not fully understand our doctrine, the mere idea is out-and-out heresy.

Let's start by clearing up two big, big misconceptions:

(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.

(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

We believe, as you know, that ours is a restoration of the very Church Jesus Christ established during His ministry here on earth. It would follow, then, that we believe we are teaching the same doctrines as were taught then and accepted by Jesus’ followers. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine (known as deification or exaltation) is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.

Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.

Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?

Finally, there is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:

In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”

Even the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity."

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Finally, according to The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”

So, the "Mormons" really didn't come up with this doctrine. We only restored that which had been lost for many, many years.

In a way, I'm kind of surprised that you didn't know about the doctrine of Eternal Progression when you joined the Church. Of course, you jumped in entirely too quickly and then left too quickly. That's okay. I'm sure you're not the first person who has done exactly the same thing. But, if you ever do decide to come back, I'm sure this won't happen a second time. Did you know that Brigham Young actually studied Mormonism for two full years before being baptized? Missionaries love converts, and let me tell you, they probably looked at you as some kind of a miracle. I don't know how hard they may have pushed you or even if they pushed you at all, but becoming a Latter-day Saint is something which should take a great deal of study, faith and prayer. Good luck with your decision, whatever it may end up being.

Meanwhile... keep those questions coming.
 

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Im back! :) Well recovering at least! I had gallstone pancreatitis and ended up having my gallbladder removed. Thanks for your posts and replies to my first lot of questions, I had a quick read through while I was in hospital but will keep referring to them now I am at home and not allowed to lift anything above 2kg for 2 weeks! I don't want you thinking Im not giving your responses my full attention, I am but a) this is the DIR so couldn't respond anyway and b) you've not said anything so far which doesn't make sense!

In a way, I'm kind of surprised that you didn't know about the doctrine of Eternal Progression when you joined the Church. Of course, you jumped in entirely too quickly and then left too quickly. That's okay. I'm sure you're not the first person who has done exactly the same thing. But, if you ever do decide to come back, I'm sure this won't happen a second time. Did you know that Brigham Young actually studied Mormonism for two full years before being baptized? Missionaries love converts, and let me tell you, they probably looked at you as some kind of a miracle. I don't know how hard they may have pushed you or even if they pushed you at all, but becoming a Latter-day Saint is something which should take a great deal of study, faith and prayer. Good luck with your decision, whatever it may end up being.

I came across the term eternal progression but never fully understood it. You are right, I dived in head first far too quickly and didn't give myself time to study and research. The missionaries never pushed me but I think they misread my readiness (my fault not theirs!)

OK to the next set of "issues":-

Joseph Smith being a con artist (I dont mean in terms of the BoM as another thread was talking about but the money scamming scheme accusations etc)
The Temple having masonic symbols on the outside
Unfortunately what I have heard (yes I have never been in) about the Temple Ceremony also. Dont want to say too much as know its scared but lets say links between Ceremony and Masonry and things that have changed/been removed etc. I understand Joseph Smith joined masonry a month before the Temple Ceremony was restored?

Thanks :)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
OK to the next set of "issues":-

Joseph Smith being a con artist (I dont mean in terms of the BoM as another thread was talking about but the money scamming scheme accusations etc)
I'm going to ask you to be a little more specific in your question, if you don't mind. I don't want to go off in an entirely different direction than where you had intended.

The Temple having masonic symbols on the outside
I think it's important to understand that nobody owns a symbol, i.e. in terms of having exclusive rights to it, and symbols don't inherently mean anything at all. Consider, for example, the Star of David, which most people today associate with Judaism. Before it was used by Judaism, however, it was used in Hinduism. So is it really a Jewish symbol, or is it a Hindu symbol? The Ichthys symbol, used to represent Jesus, was used by many pagan societies prior to being adopted by the early Christians. And then there are two of my favorites: The Petrine cross (i.e. an inverted cross) and the Swastika. When the Apostle Peter was crucified, he actually requested that he be hung upside down, as he said he was not worthy to be crucified in the same way Jesus Christ had been. For many years, the Petrine cross was considered to be a symbol of humility, and a number of old Christian churches were adorned with an upside-down cross. Today, most people -- particularly Christians -- think of an upside-down cross as representing Satanism. What was once probably the most pro-Christian symbol in the world has evolved into something Christians recoil at. The Swastika, associated today with Nazi Germany, is one of the most ancient symbols in the world, and up until it was used by Adolf Hitler, had virtually no negative connotations attached to it.

The same holds true with respect to a number of symbols commonly thought to be Masonic in origin. Several of these are found on the exterior walls of the Salt Lake temple. I'm really not sure whether you'll find any of them on any other LDS temples (except possibly the Nauvoo Temple), but I've never noticed them on most of the temples I've been in. One of these is the "Handclasp," a symbol familiar to Freemasons worldwide. On the Salt Lake temple, you can see this symbol on both the east and west center spires. It may very well represent the "right hands of fellowship" mentioned in Galatians 2:9, but could also signify entering into a covenant with the Lord (as is mentioned in Jeremiah 31:32).

The All-seeing Eye, sometimes associated with Freemasonry, can also be found on the outside of the Salt Lake temple, but it was used as a Christian symbol long before either Mormonism or Freemasonry were ever established. There are numerous references in the Bible to God having the ability to see all things, and the All-seeing Eye is symbolic of that godly capability.

The exterior walls of the Salt Lake temple also contain various cosmological symbols -- earthstones, moonstones, sunstones and starstones. Guess what? There are also even inverted pentagrams!!! :eek: And guess what else? There are inverted pentagrams on numerous Christian Churches throughout Europe, including one in England: St Mary's Church, Adderbury, Oxfordshire (See Picture).

I could go on and on, but I think you probably get the point.

Unfortunately what I have heard (yes I have never been in) about the Temple Ceremony also. Dont want to say too much as know its scared but lets say links between Ceremony and Masonry and things that have changed/been removed etc. I understand Joseph Smith joined masonry a month before the Temple Ceremony was restored?
Later, okay? :)
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
OK to the next set of "issues":-

Joseph Smith being a con artist (I dont mean in terms of the BoM as another thread was talking about but the money scamming scheme accusations etc)
The Temple having masonic symbols on the outside
Unfortunately what I have heard (yes I have never been in) about the Temple Ceremony also. Dont want to say too much as know its scared but lets say links between Ceremony and Masonry and things that have changed/been removed etc. I understand Joseph Smith joined masonry a month before the Temple Ceremony was restored?

Thanks :)


You have no comment about the first series of questions?


Per con artist: I'm not sure if you are thinking of a particular incident or just a general slur to describe Joseph Smith's character. The earliest specific example where I've seen this label used is tied to a 1826 incident in New York State. Smith would have been 19 or 20 years old. Joseph Smith was hired by a man to find gold on his property. Joseph Smith was thought locally to be able to find gold. This was through using a seer stone, which Smith had. In the early 18th Century belief in folk magic was common in rural New England. The Smith family seems to have been no different. After searching on and off for around a month the quest for gold was ended as a failure. Either the son or nephew of the man who hired Smith charged Joseph with (there are conflicting accounts) being either a disorderly person, vagrancy or an imposter. This affair is usually called the 1826 trial of Joseph Smith, but the surviving paperwork show it doesn't fit with what were actually trials. It looks to be a pre-trial examination. It appears the man who hired Smith was a witness on his behalf, Joseph also testified and maybe a few others (the number of participants conflict). Of the different accounts that exist the verdict is given as: he was found guilty, he was acquitted, it was dismissed, or it never moved forward to trial. It's likely one of the latter as there was a constable fee for 19 cents in the paperwork for a pretrial appearance commitment for want of bail. Under New York Law post trial commitments on conviction would have been 25 cents. We know that the man who originally hired Smith eventually became a Mormon and remained so for the rest of his life. The man's nephew was an ardent Methodist and it's likely the issue wasn't actually about money, but an attempt to disrupt Smith and the man's relationship.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You have no comment about the first series of questions?
Orontes, I think Truth_Faith is just trying to make sure she doesn't violate any of the forum rules. I'm basing that on this comment:

I don't want you thinking Im not giving your responses my full attention, I am but a) this is the DIR so couldn't respond anyway and b) you've not said anything so far which doesn't make sense!
Feel free to comment, Truth. If our answers don't make sense or raise additional questions, you are not obliged to just keep your mouth shut and fret over them. The DIRs are just supposed to be "debate free." That doesn't mean you can't make us work hard. ;)
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
Im back! :) Well recovering at least! I had gallstone pancreatitis and ended up having my gallbladder removed. Thanks for your posts and replies to my first lot of questions, I had a quick read through while I was in hospital but will keep referring to them now I am at home and not allowed to lift anything above 2kg for 2 weeks! I don't want you thinking Im not giving your responses my full attention, I am but a) this is the DIR so couldn't respond anyway and b) you've not said anything so far which doesn't make sense!

Good to hear you're feeling better!
 
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