For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?

[icehorse]

You should provide the verse, and provide premise by premise to q argument since you are built to use logic that provide the logical contradictions.

Please go ahead.

I read the book years ago. I also read reviews of the book. My findings were consistent with reviews that found many errors in logic and inconsistencies in the book. These are easy to find online, I'm not going to do your homework for you or waste time re-documenting those findings that have been documented many times. My claims are not new nor are they unique.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Your ideas here are fantastic. But those ideas are not in the Quran. You created them or some Muslim before you created them.

So, what does it mean, when Quran talks about Purity? Or to Purify?

 

[Ebionite]

But, many of the Muslims or their Scholars have said, it means, Seal of Finality, because when we stamp a letter, it is stamped at the end of it.

Seal as authentication could be endorsement from another prophet.

Isaiah wrote of a sealed book which was given to an illiterate man, which fits with Muhammad sealing the book when he was pressed like a seal.

Also Daniel wrote of a sealed book, which connects with the watchman being given information about the time of the end.

 

[Trailblazer]

Based on what historical evidence?

All the religious wars throughout history.
Do you have any evidence of fighting between Atheists?

 

[icehorse]

So, what does it mean, when Quran talks about Purity? Or to Purify?

Can you provide more details / context for your question? thanks

 

[Link]

Where does it say "from the book comes"?

When looking at this Hadith, it is clear that, the Book is divided into two types of verses:

- عيون أخبار الرضا (ع): أبي، عن علي، عن أبيه، عن حيون مولى الرضا، عن الرضا عليه السلام قال:
من رد متشابه القرآن إلى محكمه هدي إلى صراط مستقيم، ثم قال عليه السلام: إن في أخبارنا متشابها كمتشابه القرآن، ومحكما كمحكم القرآن، فردوا متشابهها إلى محكمها، ولا تتبعوا متشابهها دون محكمها فتضلوا.


Uyūn Akhbār al-Riḍā (عليه السلام): From my father, from ‘Alī, from his father, from Ḥayyūn, the servant of al-Riḍā, from al-Riḍā (عليه السلام), who said: "Whoever refers the ambiguous of the Quran to its clear is guided to the straight path." Then he (عليه السلام) said: "Indeed, in our narrations, there are ambiguous ones like the ambiguous parts of the Quran, and clear ones like the clear parts of the Quran. So refer the ambiguous ones to the clear ones, and do not follow the ambiguous ones without referring to the clear ones, lest you go astray."

The Quran's ambiguity is from our own ignorance as other hadiths have shown though. It's not that the actual Quran is unclear.

"and do not follow it's ambiguity rather than it's clear lest you go astray"

The last line (which you did not translate properly) also shows ambiguities can't be followed. If we go by your definition, that it's only verses that are agreed upon in meaning and no one can misinterpret, it would mean we can't follow 4:59 which is absurd since it's a command by God.

 

[Link]

There is also this Sunni hadith from Ali (a):

When Ali bin Abi Talib sent Ibn Abbas to the Khawarij, he said, “Go and challenge them. Do not debate them with the Qur’an, for it has many faces (for interpretation), but challenge them with the sunnah.”

Al-Lalika’ee in Sharh Usool Al-I’itiqad (203)

 

[Link]

Where does it say "from the book comes"?

I interpret the "from it" to mean that while you see it to mean "some of it".

 

[firedragon]

No problem. Also, according Bukhari Muhammad was pressed like a seal is pressed to authenticate a document.

This hadith does not say that. Are you referring to another hadith where Muhammed was "pressed like a seal"?

Anyway mate. The point was, you were wrong to say it was plural. You have completely misread it, or someone lied to you.

 

[firedragon]

I read the book years ago. I also read reviews of the book. My findings were consistent with reviews that found many errors in logic and inconsistencies in the book. These are easy to find online, I'm not going to do your homework for you or waste time re-documenting those findings that have been documented many times. My claims are not new nor are they unique.

This has nothing specific. It's appealing to self. Logically fallacious.

 

[firedragon]

All the religious wars throughout history.

Too vague. That's not evidence. And you are absolutely wrong. Maybe you are way too influenced by the secular world, or you are just biased. That's why you have no data. No research. Just spreading falsehood and hatred toward religion.

As far as anyone knows, only 7% of all wars in history have been motivated by theological grounding. And, secular wars, Leninist/communist/atheistic rampages, have bypassed any kind of religious wars in the known history of the world. You are wrong. This has been proven by even atheist scholars.

Read "encyclopedia of wars" by Charles and Allen.

Don't spread falsehood. Don't make assumptions and spread them as if you have done the research on it.

Ciao.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I didn't say 'God', I said creator. Science is a methodology, it takes people to apply it and people are not omniscient.

Are these two- God and creator, different in Islam?
Of course, in Hinduism, they are different. God/Goddess ordered the universe to be made, and the creator/architect was Vishwakarma.

Click to enlarge. See the hammer in his hand.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, it is not. FSM does not claim to be of Divine nature.
Nevertheless, are you saying that "science" CAN prove anything about it?

For some people FSM is the ultimate force in the universe, others consider Cthulhu to be that. There may be other claimants too.
Science can only look for evidence, and it has not found any for God or soul.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Quran's ambiguity is from our own ignorance as other hadiths have shown though. It's not that the actual Quran is unclear.

That is not what the Quran says though. You must have learned this idea from somewhere else. I think You should weigh your idea against the verses of the Quran. If Quran agrees with it, then fine. If not, consider, those who taught it to you, had misunderstood it themselves.

"and do not follow it's ambiguity rather than it's clear lest you go astray"

The last line (which you did not translate properly) also shows ambiguities can't be followed. If we go by your definition, that it's only verses that are agreed upon in meaning and no one can misinterpret, it would mean we can't follow 4:59 which is absurd since it's a command by God.

"Do not follow its Mutishabihat" means, do not go after them, trying to interpret them, because you cannot, as only God and His chosen ones know its interpretation, thus, leave it to them to interpret it for you, Meaning, ask the infallible Imams or a Prophet, or the Qaim whenever He rises.
It means, whenever you come across a verse that is ambiguous, or can be interpreted in different ways, know that, this verse is Mutishabihat, and thus, do not go after it and do not try to use your own imagination, and interpret it based on your own imagination and desire, as you could not interpret them, since only God and His chosen ones know its interpretation. and if you go after their interpretation, therefore you would get mislead, and perish (Spiritually), and cause others to persih.

Here are some Hadithes from Al-Kafi:

"If they would ask, "Who are the ones well-grounded in knowledge?" Say, "They are those in whose knowledge there is no disharmony." If they would ask, "Who is he?" Say, "the Messenger of Allah was such a person. "

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from MuAlia ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn ’Uwarma from Ali ibn Hassan from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Kathir from abu ‘bdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"People well-grounded in Knowledge stands for Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) and the Imams after him."


"No one knows its interpretation except Allah and those firmly rooted in knowledge. Therefore, to remain silent in its interpretation and to confess failure in understanding its meaning is most righteous, worthwhile and suitable to precaution. (Mir’at al-‘uqul, vol.2, p.24)

 

[Link]

That is not what the Quran says though. You must have learned this idea from somewhere else. I think You should weigh your idea against the verses of the Quran.

The Quran calls itself a clear book many times and a clear recitation. Anyways, we've presented evidence from hadiths and Quran. I think you don't change views no matter what evidence is shown.

There is also to consider what Satan cast (sorcery):

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رَسُولٍ وَلَا نَبِيٍّ إِلَّا إِذَا تَمَنَّىٰ أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَانُ فِي أُمْنِيَّتِهِ فَيَنْسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ اللَّهُ آيَاتِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ | We did not send any apostle or prophet before you but that when he wished Satan cast/threw in his wish. Thereat Allah nullifies whatever Satan has cast/thrown, and then Allah makes clear/firm His signs, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. | Al-Hajj : 52

لِيَجْعَلَ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ فِتْنَةً لِلَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ وَالْقَاسِيَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَفِي شِقَاقٍ بَعِيدٍ | That He may make what Satan has thrown in a test for those in whose hearts is a sickness and those whose hearts have hardened. Indeed the wrongdoers are steeped in extreme defiance. | Al-Hajj : 53

وَلِيَعْلَمَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَيُؤْمِنُوا بِهِ فَتُخْبِتَ لَهُ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهَادِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ | [And also for the reason] that those who have been given knowledge may know that it is the truth from your Lord, and so they may have faith in it, and their hearts may be humbled before Him. Indeed Allah guides those who have faith to a straight path. | Al-Hajj : 54

And regarding hard hearts in the past regarding the revelations of Bani-Israel Prophets (a):

فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِمْ مِيثَاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبَهُمْ قَاسِيَةً ۖ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَوَاضِعِهِ ۙ وَنَسُوا حَظًّا مِمَّا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ ۚ وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىٰ خَائِنَةٍ مِنْهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِنْهُمْ ۖ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَاصْفَحْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ | Then, because of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard: they change/move words from their places, and have forgotten a part of what they were reminded. You will not cease to learn of some of their treachery, excepting a few of them. Yet excuse them and forbear. Indeed Allah loves the virtuous. | Al-Maaida : 13

And said:

وَحَسِبُوا أَلَّا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ فَعَمُوا وَصَمُّوا ثُمَّ تَابَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ ثُمَّ عَمُوا وَصَمُّوا كَثِيرٌ مِنْهُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ | They supposed there would be no testing, so they became blind and deaf. Thereafter Allah turned to them (mercifully), yet [again] many of them became blind and deaf, and Allah watches what they do. | Al-Maaida : 71


Without nullifying what Satan cast, the signs won't be clarified and made clear. And this why a soft heart is needed that turns to God and also believes in the unseen as to see Satan and his magic and his forces so to defeat the dark magic and the opponents.

Also, the verse 3:7 says itself the clear signs are the mother/original book. It means that is the original intent by God and is the original Quran revealed to Mohammad (s).

 

[Link]

"Do not follow its Mutishabihat" means, do not go after them, trying to interpret them, because you cannot, as only God and His chosen ones know its interpretation,

This is not true for 4:59 nor 42:23. I know it's meaning and I am not a chosen person. There is conflict with regards to it though, so it would be unclear per you and yet I know it's clear meaning. Moreover, Imams (a) themselves used other parts of the Quran to clarify and give context to these words. For example, 3:33 and 4:54 for 4:59 and other reward accusation verses with 42:23.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Can you provide more details / context for your question? thanks

Abdullah ibn Amr reported: We said, “O Messenger of Allah, who are the best people?” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

ذُو الْقَلْبِ الْمَخْمُومِ وَاللِّسَانِ الصَّدُوقِ

One with a heart swept clean and truthful in speech.

We said, “O Messenger of Allah, we know truthful in speech. What is a heart swept clean?” The Prophet said:

هُوَ التَّقِيُّ النَّقِيُّ لا إِثْمَ فِيهِ وَلا بَغْيَ وَلا حَسَدَ

One that is Godfearing and pure, in which there is neither sin, nor transgression, nor envy.

We said, “Who shows a sign of it?” The Prophet said:

الَّذِي يَشْنَأُ الدُّنْيَا وَيُحِبُّ الآخِرَةَ

One who despises worldliness and loves the Hereafter.

We said, “And who shows a sign of it?” The Prophet said:

مُؤْمِنٌ فِي خُلُقٍ حَسَنٍ

A believer with good character.

Source: Shu’ab al-Imān 4462,



Anas ibn Malik reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

لا يَبْلُغُ عَبْدٌ حَقِيقَةَ الإِيمَانِ حَتَّى يُحِبَّ لِلنَّاسِ مَا يُحِبُّ لِنَفْسِهِ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ

The servant does not attain the reality of faith until he loves for people what he loves for himself of goodness.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Ibn Ḥibbān 235,

Forty Hadith on Purification of the Heart

www.abuaminaelias.com

"Successful indeed are those who purify themselves" Quran 87:14

 

[icehorse]

One with a heart swept clean and truthful in speech.

We said, “O Messenger of Allah, we know truthful in speech. What is a heart swept clean?” The Prophet said:

Ok, that makes more sense, thanks.

So I think that the idea of theocracy is baked into Islam, and I think theocracy is a horrible idea. That is truthful speech from me, and as I read the Quran, that opinion of mine lands me in hell.

 

[Link]

Ok, that makes more sense, thanks.

So I think that the idea of theocracy is baked into Islam, and I think theocracy is a horrible idea. That is truthful speech from me, and as I read the Quran, that opinion of mine lands me in hell.

Even if the theocracy allows other religions to judge and rule themselves by what they believe?

 

[icehorse]

Even if the theocracy allows other religions to judge and rule themselves by what they believe?

Yup, I still believe theocracy is a horrible idea.