For people who are working to help reduce animosities and hostilities across belief divides

[Jim]

I’m thinking that your work might have far more value than you realize, yourself. I’ll say more about that after I do some more research. For now I want to post about my ideas and experiences, and I’m hoping that others will post about theirs.

I’ve been thinking that one of the most consequential things that we could be doing is growing close friendships with people across the widest belief divides. Now I’m not so sure of that, but I don’t have any ideas about what anyone could be doing in their everyday lives, better than that, to help reduce animosities and hostilities across the divides.

I’ve been feeling like I haven’t been doing as much about it as I thought I was. I’ve spent possibly hundreds of hours in friendly discussions with people across the widest divides, but those haven’t led to the kind of friendships that I think is needed. I have friendships like that with people where I live, who all say that they don’t believe in God, and who know that my life and my ways of thinking are God-centered, but I can’t picture how that can ever make any difference in the violence in other parts of the world that I’ve been telling myself that I’m helping to stop. Intuitively I feel that it’s meaningful, but I’m having a hard time explaining it to myself.

If there are better ways to help stop the animosities and hostilities across belief divides, than growing friendships across those divides, what are they? I know about various kinds of interfaith initiatives. I also see a lot of power in storytelling. What else?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Over the Easter weekend I was part of an amazing weekend supporting about 50 youth from many different cultures. There were Christian and atheist/agnostics as well as Baha'is. They we studying and learning together with a focus on virtues that are common to all faiths. Their focus was on service how to improve their communities. Some of the people from the small rural town joined us for our last night for a meal and a music/artistic expressions evening from some of the participants. It was very inspiring and powerful to see a younger generation focusing on making changes in their lives and thinking about how to make a difference in their neighbourhoods.

 

[icehorse]

Get clear on your core values and share them.

My experience is that most people haven't really thought through their core values.

 

[Jim]

Any more ideas about what any of us here can do to help reduce animosities and hostilities across belief divides, and counteract their effects? I still don't see anything better for me to be doing than what I've already said: Keep working on improving my own attitudes and behavior; learn to be a better friend to more people; help with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities around the world; bring all that up for discussion sometimes, like I'm doing now. Some kinds of interfaith initiatives. Practice friendship and fellowship across the widest divides. Storytelling. Get to know our own religions better.

Does anyone have any other ideas about what any of us here might be able do to help reduce animosities and hostilities across belief divides, and counteract their effects?

 

[Jim]

The fact that people dare to say things in public about categories of people defined by ideology, that they would never dare say about the people of any race or nation, is what I see as the last stand for global violence, a social disease that needs to be as widely and thoroughly discredited as much as race prejudices have been. I think that until that happens, the world and all its people are in more danger than we’ve ever been in before. That’s the reason for the urgency that I see in finding ways to erase those imaginary dividing lines in popular thinking.

 

[Jim]

Now I see a possible reason why people sometimes want to deny that there is any such thing as a religion called “Islam.”

 

[Jim]

Storytelling! I just remembered! Heartwarming stories about Muslims, written by Muslims for Muslims. Does anyone know any good ones in English?

Children’s books! Children’s books to teach good character, written by Muslims for Muslims. Does anyone know any good ones in English?

Other kinds of books about, about all kinds of topics, like raising children for example, written by Muslims for Muslims. I’ll be doing research on that.

 

[Revoltingest]

If there are better ways to help stop the animosities and hostilities across belief divides, than growing friendships across those divides, what are they? I know about various kinds of interfaith initiatives. I also see a lot of power in storytelling. What else?

I notice that many people believe that hostility is productive. The way to
sway others from wrong beliefs is to make them uncomfortable...to feel
hated for being the way they are. I've even know several staffers here who
advocate open hostility...who say that civility & reason is "appeasement".
They're wrong.
I'll skip citing the several reasons why.
More interesting....I'm reminded of this guy.
Black Man Gets KKK Members To Disavow By Befriending Them | HuffPost

 

[Jim]

I might be finished here for now. I know, I've said that before. I'm hoping that I really mean it this time.

I want to explain my outburst in the thread about issues with Islam. I said "What reasons can you think of for thinking that endless, aimless debating about it in Internet discussions will do anything to stop all that from continuing to escalate? 'Come to the cabaret.'"

I'm passionately interested, with all my heart, in trying to help remedy all our social issues; to help reduce the damage from disasters and help people recover from them, and to help improve the world for all people everywhere. Whenever I see discussions about those issues, my heart always leaps at the possibility of finding other people to talk to about that, for us to get ideas, encouragement and support from each other in what we're doing for those purposes. My hopes are dashed every time. All I ever find every time are endless, aimless mockeries of debating about stories that we see in the funhouse mirrors of the media, where each person makes their own rules and keeps their own score, no one seems to care about actually doing anything about any of it, and the only purpose it seems to be serving for anyone is social interaction.

Maybe everyone is doing all they can, offline, for the issues they're debating about, and I don't see anything wrong with just using Internet forums for social interaction, but the debating topics for that wouldn't have to be -- oh. I see. Yes, maybe they would have to be about what people think is really happening. Right. That might be a sign of caring, after all.

I still think that what I've been dreaming of will happen some day, with or without me. It will just take time, and there might need to be a lot more progress offline before it happens online. Also, Internet forums might be the last place on the Internet where it will happen, if they survive at all. I see them doing some good, even if it's only for the people in them, and if it's good for them, then might be good for the people in their lives. I have other priorities for now. Maybe I'll come back to this some day.

 

[Jim]

I’m thinking now that there is no excuse for anyone to imagine differences in character and capacities across belief divides. I think that in another generation or two that will be recognized as being as much of a social illness as doing it across lines dividing people into races, with all the same worst consequences, and consequences for all people everywhere even more harrowing and unthinkable than what we’ve already seen if it is not decisively checked.

I’ve been considering what to think about roleplaying those prejudices and animosities in online debating MMORPG’s, and I think I’m against it because it might help perpetuate them outside of the RPG.

 

[2ndpillar]

Get clear on your core values and share them.

My experience is that most people haven't really thought through their core values.

You failed to share your "core values" in any way, much less a clear way.

 

[icehorse]

You failed to share your "core values" in any way, much less a clear way.

Agreed, not on this thread. But in many threads I have shared my core values. This thread seems more general to me, no? In other words, this doesn't seem like the thread intended to compare and contrast core values.

 

[2ndpillar]

Agreed, not on this thread. But in many threads I have shared my core values. This thread seems more general to me, no? In other words, this doesn't seem like the thread intended to compare and contrast core values.

It seems the guy is looking for specific answers. If you have clear core values which you think are the key to the box the guy is trying to open, specific answers might be helpful. Plus your clear core values and their source will give us a look into your soul. I am not familiar with you or your previous threads, so specificity might be a helpful course of action.

 

[icehorse]

It seems the guy is looking for specific answers. If you have clear core values which you think are the key to the box the guy is trying to open, specific answers might be helpful. Plus your clear core values and their source will give us a look into your soul. I am not familiar with you or your previous threads, so specificity might be a helpful course of action.

FWIW, I'm a secular humanist. Perhaps I'm a slightly militant one, as I'm also an anti-theist

 

[2ndpillar]

FWIW, I'm a secular humanist. Perhaps I'm a slightly militant one, as I'm also an anti-theist

That hardly is a clear set of core values. I would think that Stalin and Chairman Mao would be secular humanist, but maybe in a more militant manner. They seem to be their own secular god, and determine right from wrong on their own dime. And while the rise of Lennon followers seems to be on the rise, I don't see any redeeming qualities stemming from this surge.

 

[icehorse]

That hardly is a clear set of core values. I would think that Stalin and Chairman Mao would be secular humanist, but maybe in a more militant manner. They seem to be their own secular god, and determine right from wrong on their own dime. And while the rise of Lennon followers seems to be on the rise, I don't see any redeeming qualities stemming from this surge.

Wow! You're gonna need to do some serious dot connecting to get from secular humanist to Stalin! A await your reasoning..

 

[Jim]

I'm seeing more clearly now, layers and layers and more layers of excuses and camouflage for using groups and categories of people as scapegoats, effigies and voodoo dolls, for venting anger and as a substitute for action, in response to civilization disintegrating all around us. I'm thinking now that people who see the wrongness and the danger in alienation and animosities across lines defined by ideology, might need to be more outspoken about it. I don't mean to argue with people about it, or to point a finger at specific people. I mean from time to time to openly denounce the practice of dividing people up into groups and categories defined by ideology, as a social illness as much as dividing them up into races, and simply ignore all the backlash.

That's along with continually working to free ourselves from layer after layer of our own prejudices and delusions; learning to be a better friend to more people; practicing and promoting community service; and bringing all this up for discussions sometimes. One way I've tried to free myself from prejudices and delusions has been spending time in friendly online discussions with people whose ideas and interests alarm me the most, trying to see things their way; find things to like in them and things to admire in what they do; and look for ways of serving their best interests. I think the best way to free ourselves from prejudices and delusions is in close friendships with people across the widest belief divides, but for some of us the possibilities for that might be rare. The next best way might be reading heartwarming stories by and for people across those divides.

I see alienation and animosities across belief divides as possibly the social illness that is threatening the most to blow it up, along with a more vacuum in which any excuse will do for people to indulge their worst impulses. I think now that we need to be more bold and unapologetic in denouncing the practice of dividing people up into groups and categories defined by ideology, and allowing no excuses for it. That includes all kinds of identity factions. I will be so bold as to explicitly denounce the practices of dividing people up into atheists and theists; and Abrahamics and non-Abrahamics; and the latest fashions in sex and gender identity. I see the practice of dividing people up into those groups and categories defined by ideology as a ticking time bomb, enough to be willing to face all the backlash I might get from this.

This might be partly inspired by my recent discussion with icehorse about naming things for what I think they really are.

 

[Jim]

I notice that many people believe that hostility is productive. The way to
sway others from wrong beliefs is to make them uncomfortable...to feel
hated for being the way they are. I've even know several staffers here who
advocate open hostility...who say that civility & reason is "appeasement".

I'm seeing that now as nothing but lame excuses and camouflage, clouds of smoke and dust, for people to indulge their worst impulses, and I'm not going to allow any excuses for it any more. I'm seeing this now as one of the issues that most urgently need to be addressed, along with denouncing the practice of dividing people up into groups and categories defined by ideology, and systematic and sustained efforts to free ourselves from it more and more. if there is any hope of averting or at least mitigating the disasters that I see looming ahead of us. No more Cabaret. No more fiddling while Rome burns.

 

[2ndpillar]

Wow! You're gonna need to do some serious dot connecting to get from secular humanist to Stalin! A await your reasoning..

Communist are antitheist. They are secular, and determine right from wrong (morality) on their own. Your secular humanist are their own gods, and their lives seem to generally portray just that. They seem to howl at the moon and sky, and at the moment, vehemently hate one person.

sec·u·lar hu·man·ism
[secular humanism]
NOUN

1. humanism, with regard in particular to the belief that humanity is capable of morality and self-fulfillment without belief in God.

 

[icehorse]

Communist are antitheist.

This is immaterial on at least two counts:
1 - In general, secular humanists are not anti-theists. The fact that I am doesn't impact the general truth.
2 - Some communists are anti-theists, but that doesn't make them secular humanists.

If we used your sort of logic we could say that since Hitler was a vegetarian, vegetarians are anti-semitic, which is of course nonsense.

They are secular, and determine right from wrong (morality) on their own.

We all determine right from wrong on our own, it's just that the non-religious are honest about it and the religious are not.

Your secular humanist are their own gods, and their lives seem to generally portray just that.

Well Stalin and his ilk were not secular humanists, so can you give another example? It seems to me that you're applying the SH label incorrectly. SHs are not fans of Stalin and their ilk.

sec·u·lar hu·man·ism
[secular humanism]
NOUN

1. humanism, with regard in particular to the belief that humanity is capable of morality and self-fulfillment without belief in God.

I'm okay with this definition. Do you think your morality comes from a holy book? If so, I would say you'd have to be an extremely immoral person if you follow everything your holy book tells you to do. Instead, I suspect that - based on morality you learned apart from your holy book - you cherry pick your holy book and pay attention only to those messages in the book that align with what you already knew about morality.