For the JuBu's...

[Tumah]

Actually I do. I am a firm believer that halacha is important and that probably most of the Law, especially as far as its basic direction is concerned, is also important, even if it turned out that it wasn't divinely inspired at all. This is what separates me from being an atheist.

Then you may want to take another quick peak at the halachos of idol-worship.

It's very hard to answer that question if a few sentences or even paragraphs. Let me just put it this way, namely that Buddhism is tailor-made for a non-theistic approach whereas Judaism is not. Therefore, its teachings all orient in that direction, and the basic teachings tend to be very objective to the point of pretty much mimicing the scientific method. However, there are some teachings that became attached over the centuries that somewhat defy the word "objective", so those I pretty much ignore.

BTW, just to be clear, I certainly do not mind being asked this, nor do I mind being challenged on this, but neither do I propose that my approach is somehow the best for all.

So you are saying that if the Jewish books had replaced the word G-d with the word Divine, that would have worked better for you?

Can you give me an example of a objective non-theistic teaching that points to a universal Truth as defined by Buddhism?

I am not asking you this to challenge you per se, but because I am aware of the fact that so many Jews end up on Ashrams and I really just want to understand what they find so fulfilling that they couldn't have gotten from remaining Jewish.

 

[Caladan]

I am not asking you this to challenge you per se, but because I am aware of the fact that so many Jews end up on Ashrams and I really just want to understand what they find so fulfilling that they couldn't have gotten from remaining Jewish.

I would think one of the major things would be freedom, a sense of personal space, and a 'time out'. Jews and other westerners who travel the east get a huge break from the patriarchal western society and its expectations, as cliche as it may sound. Of course, they get this personal sense of freedom because of the fact that they are not a native who lives under the local patriarchy and its religious and cultural expectations. In my opinion, neither Judaism nor Buddhism in reality answer the ideal the two sides of this debate *may* propose.
Bottom line is, I can understand why people look for wisdom and inspiration outside their 'native' faith. I have much respect for the Jewish heritage, but I cannot find inspiration in practicing daily Jewish rituals and what seem to me a general repetition of Jewish traditions and holidays. I need more than that.
This does not make me oblivious to the fact that the same mundane existence exists in the other faiths of the world, but one of the advantages of what they call on this forum a 'seeker', or a 'syncretist', is that we get to gravitate towards that which resonates with us based on our character and personal ideals, instead of social expectations.

Also, I think this discussion may be somewhat limited since the choice of DIR.

 

[Tumah]

I would think one of the major things would be freedom, a sense of personal space, and a 'time out'. Jews and other westerners who travel the east get a huge break from the patriarchal western society and its expectations, as cliche as it may sound. Of course, they get this personal sense of freedom because of the fact that they are not a native who lives under the local patriarchy and its religious and cultural expectations. In my opinion, neither Judaism nor Buddhism in reality answer the ideal the two sides of this debate *may* propose.
Bottom line is, I can understand why people look for wisdom and inspiration outside their 'native' faith. I have much respect for the Jewish heritage, but I cannot find inspiration in practicing daily Jewish rituals and what seem to me a general repetition of Jewish traditions and holidays. I need more than that.
This does not make me oblivious to the fact that the same mundane existence exists in the other faiths of the world, but one of the advantages of what they call on this forum a 'seeker', or a 'syncretist', is that we get to gravitate towards that which resonates with us based on our character and personal ideals, instead of social expectations.

Also, I think this discussion may be somewhat limited since the choice of DIR.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in meditation the best results are to be found through daily repetition as well.
Aryeh Kaplan puts forth the idea that the Amidah prayers which are repeated three times daily were originally meant as a form of structured mantra meditation. The Mishnah states that the Original Saints would prepare themselves for an hour, say the Amidah for an hour and then remain for a third hour. To say the Amidah over the course of an hour would be at a rate of 1 word every 7 seconds. The rules of the Amidah also seem meditative- one is not supposed to move the entire time besides four 2 bows in the beginining and two at the end.

Their meditation was directed towards experiencing the Divine. On top of that they wore their Tefillin (phylacteries) for two of the prayers 6 days a week. There is an article that can be found online by an acupuncturist who found that the pressure points touched by the Tefillin are consistent with the pattern one would use to clear the mind and raising the spirit. This would increase the experience as well.

Am I wrong in assuming the greatest meditative experience can only occur through constant repetition?

I'm fairly new here. What would have been a better DIR for this?

I have many introductory books on the Zohar and Kabbalah - most of which are by Arthur Green (if you are familiar with him), and a few by Harold Kushner and Gershom Scholem. I have read several of them recently took a break to more fervently explore eastern philosophy. I think we are both slightly talking about 2 different things (i.e. there is a little communication going on, I will try to help clarify, and I have very poor Hebrew skills so virtually all of the Jewish texts I study are English translations). I am very happy to hear that Jewish mysticism has been highly relevant to your daily life - part of the problem with my experience, I hope you will understand, is that I have lived in small towns my entire life (I am only 21) and thus I have only been connected with very small Jewish communities (next year this will change as I am moving to a big city for grad school). Also, I am visiting Israel at the end of this month so that should be a very enlightening, spiritually nourishing experience for my Jewishness I'm sure.

Perhaps the following thread I created a while ago will help to give you a better idea of the concept I'm talking about, and also the "uncomfortableness" most Jews here have with the concept. Check out my thread here. Basically, in light of our agreements that Judaism does in fact have room for this concept, I fail to see, for example, how Jesus claiming to be a son of God (literally, of the nature of God, i.e. of divine nature) is blasphemous. I just don't see how this is blasphemy anymore. Yes, of course it would be blasphemy to equate your ego - the idea you have of yourself with God, that would be blasphemy.. but I do not believe Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, etc are guilty of this. Rather I think all of them were expressing the realization that their true inner nature is one with God, that their essence/true identity is divine... and I fail to see how this is blasphemy.. and if it is not blasphemy, then I fail to see why Jews so vehemently oppose Jesus and the "Incarnation Theology" that I have been describing in my replies (that is present in Hinduism, Christianity, and very subtly in Buddhism).

I would love to hear any book recommendations you have after we clear up the miscomunication.

It's great to hear that you are coming to visit. I actually just moved back here after 2 years in NY.

I don't really know much about these English authors. I find reading the source material myself to be more enlightening. It is a shame that Hebrew and Aramaic languages are not part of the standard curriculum in the non-Orthodox world. There is a true trove of wisdom to be found for those who have that available to them. There is actually an online "library" that has something like 60,000 works of Jewish literature.

With regards to your Incarnation Theology. I am having some slight difficulty understanding exactly what you mean. If you are saying that "Son of G-d" means that we all contain a spark of the Divine, then yes, that is Judaism. If you are saying that we are all as equally godly as G-d Himself, then that is not Judaism. The concept in Judaism is based on the the verse in Gen. 2:7 "and He blew into his nose the breath of life." In Hebrew there are three basic words for soul and they all relate to the breath. Because the Breath of G-d is a metaphor for something that is as close to G-d as can be without being G-d Himself. Just like the breath of a person that sits in the lungs in intimate, internal yet not the person himself. The analogy used is of a glassblower blowing into glass. The different parts of the soul are names for where the "breath" of the glassblower" can be found. For instance the highest part of the soul, what would be in the "lungs of the glassblower" is called the "YeCHiDaH" or "Unity", because at that level, the soul is still in a state of oneness with G-d. As you move down you have the "Life", "Breathe", "Wind" and "Respiration". When we speak about the soul we are speaking about this chain that goes from G-d, down through the three spiritual Worlds, to our physical one. That is the part of the nature that Man has over angels: our souls are constructed of all the spiritual elements of creation up to the very highest and therefore influence them all- while they remain in whatever element they were created. Parallel to this we are also made up of the most base elements of creations in the form of the body. But that is another discussion.

In terms of all those people claiming to be the son of G-d. There is nothing wrong with that per se. There is an entire prayer with each line directed towards "Our Father, Our King". Israel is also called G-d's firstborn or in Psalms 2:7 David says "G-d said to me, You are my son, today I have born you." So there is no learned Jew that will say that we are not G-d's children and that the way this is true is that we contain an element of the Divine in the form of our souls. The problem is when someone claims to be G-d Himself or the avatar of G-d or some other such nonsense that problems arise. And this is what happened with Christianity. If you just take jesus' words at face value, you are right there is nothing wrong with what he said. I have even brought the verses you've brought in debate with Christians to prove that he was nothing more special than myself. But the problem is that the Council of Nicene decided that his intent was to elevate himself above man. It is that belief that is problematic. Not the actual words that are written in the NT.

But again I am still having trouble getting a clear definition of "Incarnation Theology". Is the intent that we are all G-d incarnate? Then we disagree. G-d Himself Infinite and the nature of the infinite is that it is not bound by the finite. Once you bind the infinite, then it is also finite.
If you are saying, that we all incarnations of a Divine element. Then that is exactly it.

 

[Caladan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in meditation the best results are to be found through daily repetition as well.
Aryeh Kaplan puts forth the idea that the Amidah prayers which are repeated three times daily were originally meant as a form of structured mantra meditation. The Mishnah states that the Original Saints would prepare themselves for an hour, say the Amidah for an hour and then remain for a third hour. To say the Amidah over the course of an hour would be at a rate of 1 word every 7 seconds. The rules of the Amidah also seem meditative- one is not supposed to move the entire time besides four 2 bows in the beginining and two at the end.

This is like comparing playing chess to playing risk on some level, on another level it lacks a serious consideration of an entire body of heritage and philosophy behind two distinct cultures. I think comparing two distinct forms of techniques and traditions as if they are identical doesn't build a constructive case. I am sure you would agree that the standard repetitions you would find in Judaism are very distinct from a meditation session you might practice with a group which practices Zen or Buddhist meditative techniques. BTW, I'm not necessarily implying any superiority on either side. But the fact remains that people do seek out such mind clearing routines because of the fact that they did not find that the ones in their cultural background suit them. At least some of these people must have an authentic process of discretion to understand how they are wired, and what feels comfortable for them.

Their meditation was directed towards experiencing the Divine. On top of that they wore their Tefillin (phylacteries) for two of the prayers 6 days a week. There is an article that can be found online by an acupuncturist who found that the pressure points touched by the Tefillin are consistent with the pattern one would use to clear the mind and raising the spirit. This would increase the experience as well.

And how many Jewish groups practice such meditative techniques by practicing daily Tefillin wearing?
I have tried to incorporate wearing a Tefillin as a regular practice a long time ago. And while my motivation was pure and inspirational, and while I did find a degree of satisfaction while doing it, the general daily practice itself and also repeating the same prayers was too mechanical.
On the other hand I find other practices to be more inspirational in the long run, for example the Sun Salute during Yoga sessions.
You know, some Jews wear black all day, every day, they adhere to a certain traditional diet regime, and they tend to accept scriptural and other prominent texts more commonly at face value. Other Jews find their Jewish essence and cultural core in different practices and ideals, and they are also opened to engage and interact with world culture rather than subject themselves to a closed social system.

Am I wrong in assuming the greatest meditative experience can only occur through constant repetition?

The issue with defining what meditation is that the world sages would claim that real meditation is being mindful of what you are doing during your day to day activities. In any case, there is no point in comparing various distinct practices just because they may all have a component of repetition. The most simplistic similar comparison I can think of is asking why don't you like Klezmer more than you like Carl Orff or Wagner?

I'm fairly new here. What would have been a better DIR for this?

Well, I do understand your choice of DIR for this specific topic since you aim to specifically ask Jews who practice Buddhism or elements of Buddhism. I'm really just suggesting that there are members who've been discussing such issues for a while and may have to share an input about it but are weary of violating the Buddhism DIR by provoking a debate.

 

[Tumah]

This is like comparing playing chess to playing risk on some level, on another level it lacks a serious consideration of an entire body of heritage and philosophy behind two distinct cultures. I think comparing two distinct forms of techniques and traditions as if they are identical doesn't build a constructive case. I am sure you would agree that the standard repetitions you would find in Judaism are very distinct from a meditation session you might practice with a group which practices Zen or Buddhist meditative techniques. BTW, I'm not necessarily implying any superiority on either side. But the fact remains that people do seek out such mind clearing routines because of the fact that they did not find that the ones in their cultural background suit them. At least some of these people must have an authentic process of discretion to understand how they are wired, and what feels comfortable for them.

My aim was not to compare the practice but to point out that there is a meditative tradition in the Jewish religion. The fact that the general populace does not stick to tradition, is not a reflection of the nature of the Jewish religion. There are numerous Jewish works within the past 200 years that describe the correct state of the Amidah to be one called something that roughly translates to "disrobing of the physical [self]".
Although I am biased, I would think it that if I were searching out meditative experiences as a Jew I would start with identifying and practicing the ones present in my own religion before I looked for others.

And how many Jewish groups practice such meditative techniques by practicing daily Tefillin wearing?

One. And only the most spiritually inclined of them.

I have tried to incorporate wearing a Tefillin as a regular practice a long time ago. And while my motivation was pure and inspirational, and while I did find a degree of satisfaction while doing it, the general daily practice itself and also repeating the same prayers was too mechanical.
On the other hand I find other practices to be more inspirational in the long run, for example the Sun Salute during Yoga sessions.

I never heard of the Sun Salute, but I did a quick google and found that is a selection of stretches. So the only difference that I can see between that and praying with Tefillin is that it is more physically stimulating. Is there another difference?

You know, some Jews wear black all day, every day, they adhere to a certain traditional diet regime, and they tend to accept scriptural and other prominent texts more commonly at face value. Other Jews find their Jewish essence and cultural core in different practices and ideals, and they are also opened to engage and interact with world culture rather than subject themselves to a closed social system.

This is true. That doesn't necessarily imply that both are right. Let's just say that there is in fact a very real spiritual system set up and the keys to activating the system in a way that provides the most spiritual benefit was to follow the commandments. Wouldn't that mean that those that aren't are doing it wrong, even if it feels right to them?

The issue with defining what meditation is that the world sages would claim that real meditation is being mindful of what you are doing during your day to day activities.

Then according to the world sages, the most Halachically observant Jews are already in a constant state of meditation. The nature of the Halacha is that every single action during the day has a rule for it. One must constantly be aware in order to determine what the current situation demands of you. As one progresses into the Kabbalistic, not only must one be constantly aware of what one is doing, but one must also do it with the correct Kabbalistic intentions.

In any case, there is no point in comparing various distinct practices just because they may all have a component of repetition. The most simplistic similar comparison I can think of is asking why don't you like Klezmer more than you like Carl Orff or Wagner?

No, you are right. As I said, I didn't intend to compare them.

Well, I do understand your choice of DIR for this specific topic since you aim to specifically ask Jews who practice Buddhism or elements of Buddhism. I'm really just suggesting that there are members who've been discussing such issues for a while and may have to share an input about it but are weary of violating the Buddhism DIR by provoking a debate.

Well, I'm not really trying to debate as much as I am trying to find enlightenment to my question. I have no issue with the objective merits of Eastern religions. My only question is what merits a Jew might find there that could not already be found in Judaism.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is always possible to move this thread to the Judaism DIR or to Same Faith Debates (or even General Religious Debates) if you so desire.

 

[metis]

Then you may want to take another quick peak at the halachos of idol-worship.

Buddhists do not worship idols, unless they're not at all familiar with dharma. Since Buddhism is non-theistic, why worship an idol?

So you are saying that if the Jewish books had replaced the word G-d with the word Divine, that would have worked better for you?

I really don't understand where this is coming from.

Can you give me an example of a objective non-theistic teaching that points to a universal Truth as defined by Buddhism?

In Buddhism, there's no such approach as to supposedly establish a "universal truth" because that's probably too evasive. All dharma is subject to evidence, including our own personal experiences, and if the evidence indicates that a particular teaching is wrong, then it should be abandoned. This is the exact same approach used in science, btw. This is not to say that there are not some "universal truths" but that attempting to determine what they are is quite problematic.

I am not asking you this to challenge you per se, but because I am aware of the fact that so many Jews end up on Ashrams and I really just want to understand what they find so fulfilling that they couldn't have gotten from remaining Jewish.

"Ashrams" are Hindu, "sanghas" are Buddhist-- sorry to be picky . Another picky point is that one's "Jewishness" isn't determined by what we may believe, but one's "Judaism" may. Anyhow, I know what you were trying to say, so please don't be offended by the corrections.

To try and answer your question using brevity, I just have to repeat the Judaism is theistic and Buddhism isn't. However, what many JuBu's do is to take Buddhist dharma, which doesn't posit or deny the possibility of a God or Gods, and apply it to their own lives and their own religious faith.

I think the best thing for me to do at this point is to start covering dharma since you and some others have this curiosity, so let me start of with the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, which I'll put on a follow-up post. Please realize, however, that dharma doesn't stop there, so some follow-up on the follow-up will likely be necessary. Again, I'm not here to try and sell you or anyone else that this is the approach they should take.

 

[Caladan]

My aim was not to compare the practice but to point out that there is a meditative tradition in the Jewish religion. The fact that the general populace does not stick to tradition, is not a reflection of the nature of the Jewish religion.

That is a pretty ambivalent perspective. While it may be the case that some Jews are missing something which exists in Judaism, it is equally fair to say that some people find sources of information, practices, or inspiration in a myriad of other sources. And while the two aren't mutually exclusive, in many of the cases the people involved have preferences which rely on elaborate knowledge of their own sensibilities, the Jewish religion, and the 'alternative'.

There are numerous Jewish works within the past 200 years that describe the correct state of the Amidah to be one called something that roughly translates to "disrobing of the physical [self]".

Anything else to work with here?

Although I am biased, I would think it that if I were searching out meditative experiences as a Jew I would start with identifying and practicing the ones present in my own religion before I looked for others.

I think you are right to say that you are biased. Other people try to be impartial and to objectively understand themselves better. Or in plan language, to find what works for them.

One. And only the most spiritually inclined of them.

That's fairly vague. However, assuming such an authentic and practical form of worship/meditation does exist inside Judaism, it is obvious then that it is very inaccessible to common people who wish to improve their quality of life, comfortably, and without hangups, or extra baggage.

I never heard of the Sun Salute, but I did a quick google and found that is a selection of stretches. So the only difference that I can see between that and praying with Tefillin is that it is more physically stimulating. Is there another difference?

The *only* difference? As far as I am concerned it is a huge difference. It is physically and mentally engaging, it is part of a series of body movements which develop flexibility, strength and also serve as cardiovascular exercise.

This is true. That doesn't necessarily imply that both are right. Let's just say that there is in fact a very real spiritual system set up and the keys to activating the system in a way that provides the most spiritual benefit was to follow the commandments. Wouldn't that mean that those that aren't are doing it wrong, even if it feels right to them?

I am not really talking about any side having a truth. In fact I am not really in a general quest after truths in my personal life. The entire post above makes zero sense to me because it is your subjective belief, I have no way to understand it. I am not a firm believer in spiritual or supernatural realities nor that the commandments have spiritual merit, only perhaps in some cases moral merit, and even in the latter case it is anachronistic to the modern era in which we have made huge steps in creating an elaborate social and legal codes.

Then according to the world sages, the most Halachically observant Jews are already in a constant state of meditation. The nature of the Halacha is that every single action during the day has a rule for it. One must constantly be aware in order to determine what the current situation demands of you.

Personally, I find Halacha observance to be an anathema to true meditative life. Instead I find it to be a way of halting the natural flow and harmony of life. For example, the Sabbath is turned from a day of rest and reflection, into a day of obsessing whether insignificant details of routine are permissible or not, de facto turning a holy day of rest into a day of relentlessness and holding yourself accountable for mundane actions.

As one progresses into the Kabbalistic, not only must one be constantly aware of what one is doing, but one must also do it with the correct Kabbalistic intentions.

You are still pretty vague. Progressing into the Kabbalistic? How? With which group? There is plenty of Kabbalistic literature. Some of it is interesting. However I never actually met a true Kabbalist, only people who lecture about it, and most of it sounds either like New Age, or regular conservative orthodoxy. In other words, while I do read and have plenty of interest in Kabbalah, I find it to be extremely underdeveloped in Jewish society.

Well, I'm not really trying to debate as much as I am trying to find enlightenment to my question. I have no issue with the objective merits of Eastern religions. My only question is what merits a Jew might find there that could not already be found in Judaism.

Judaism and Eastern religions have different historical, regional, and cultural circumstances so the two (more really) traditions are bound to offer different spiritual jewels. However, in general it is also depending on what the person specifically looks for. Because in general I do agree that the eastern philosophies and religions many people in 'the West' are looking into or think they explore are watered down versions of traditions which are at the end of the day also patriarchal, conservative and restrictive in many ways in their native lands.
So in general, I do agree that people owe it to themselves to understand their own heritage better, and also find their point of reference to it, before looking for 'wisdom' in eastern religions in what sometimes is simply a superficial way.

 

[metis]

I will use the Buddhanet.net website for the first part:

The Four Noble Truths

1.The first noble truth is that life is frustrating and painful...

2.The second noble truth is that suffering has a cause...

3.The third noble truth is that the cause of suffering can be ended... [actually most will say not "ended" but ameliorated]

4.This is the fourth noble truth: the way, or path to end the cause of suffering.[/B] [this is where the Eightfold Path comes into the picture-- and explanations and examples of the above can be found on this page: A Basic Buddhism Guide: Introduction to Buddhism. ]



The Eightfold Path

1. Right* Understanding (Samma ditthi)
2. Right Thought (Samma sankappa)
3. Right Speech (Samma vaca)
4. Right Action (Samma kammanta)
5. Right Livelihood (Samma ajiva)
6. Right Effort (Samma vayama)
7. Right Mindfulness (Samma sati)
8. Right Concentration (Samma samadhi) -- The Eightfold Path | Tricycle [the site includes explanations of each]

*Please note that substituting the word "appropriate" is actually a better term to use than "right" since different situations sometimes call for different approaches.

 

[metis]

So in general, I do agree that people owe it to themselves to understand their own heritage better, and also find their point of reference to it, before looking for 'wisdom' in eastern religions in what sometimes is simply a superficial way.

First of all, let me just say that I have enjoyed reading your responses here, especially since you are covering more angles than I have.

With the above, let me just qualify this by saying that I do believe one doesn't have to eat the entire enchilada in order to appreciate its taste. IOW, someone may pick-and-choose from dharma that which they find useful without necessarily going to the point of actually becoming Buddhist, and HHDL has said and even encouraged as such, for example.

 

[punkdbass]

In terms of all those people claiming to be the son of G-d. There is nothing wrong with that per se. There is an entire prayer with each line directed towards "Our Father, Our King". Israel is also called G-d's firstborn or in Psalms 2:7 David says "G-d said to me, You are my son, today I have born you." So there is no learned Jew that will say that we are not G-d's children and that the way this is true is that we contain an element of the Divine in the form of our souls. The problem is when someone claims to be G-d Himself or the avatar of G-d or some other such nonsense that problems arise. And this is what happened with Christianity. If you just take jesus' words at face value, you are right there is nothing wrong with what he said. I have even brought the verses you've brought in debate with Christians to prove that he was nothing more special than myself. But the problem is that the Council of Nicene decided that his intent was to elevate himself above man. It is that belief that is problematic. Not the actual words that are written in the NT.

But again I am still having trouble getting a clear definition of "Incarnation Theology". Is the intent that we are all G-d incarnate? Then we disagree. G-d Himself Infinite and the nature of the infinite is that it is not bound by the finite. Once you bind the infinite, then it is also finite.
If you are saying, that we all incarnations of a Divine element. Then that is exactly it.

There are so many great posts in this thread! In particular, I find it very interesting to hear an Orthodox Jew say what you have just said.. especially that there is essentially no inherent problem with the NT, the problem lies with the Church. You say "the problematic belief" is to elevate oneself above other men. I want to assure you, that the "Incarnation Theology" I'm referring to in NO WAY puts any person above another. We are all on an equal playing field essentially. We are all divine.. most of us just don't realize it. I must admit, I do not feel like I can fully explain to you exactly what I want to mean by "Incarnation Theology" - for I have not obtained full Self-Realization yet.. which I feel would be necessary for giving you the best possible definition. I still am in the state of "maya" (ignorance, delusion). "Once you bind the infinite, then it is also finite.". - This is simply not so. In a "non-dualistic" view of the God or Infinite, the Infinite embraces both the One and the Many while still remaining to be its distinct self. In other words, the Infinite embraces the finite (which is quite intuitive if you think about it, for the Infinite by definition would contain everything within it, including the finite).. so the Infinite embraces the finite without loosing its "Infinite" nature, or without annihilating the finite. You seem to think the Infinite "opposes" the finite, but "opposition" is a property only finite things can have. The Infinite opposes nothing. The Infinite is Infinite! How could it possibly oppose anything? To oppose is to be subject to a limitation. Rather for a non-dual view of God, the Infinite does not oppose the finite, it wholly embraces it without losing its infinite nature. To say I am "God-Incarnate" is not to put a bound on God, but is to realize that my true inner identity is completely one with God. This is all I can say for now. Perhaps this is not heretical to Judaism?

I would like to add one last major point to help answer your main question. From your posts so far, it appears that most of the things I find appealing about Eastern religions has its counterpart in Judaism. You seem to think, well why doesnt one just stay in Judaism then? Caladan gave some great points in post #22. But I would like to add the following point for myself: Yes, most of what I can find in Buddhism or Hinduism has a slight counterpart in Judaism. The Key difference, in my mind, is the freedom one feels while doing these things in Buddhism, for example, because Buddhism is a completely inclusive religion (in general). The main issue I've always had with Judaism is the sense of exclusiveness. It's hard to become a Jew, and there has been, historically, a sharp distinction between "Jew" and "Gentile." So to practice Jewish meditation for example, I have a very small, exclusive community in which I can interact with. And I really do want to stress the point that in my experience thus far, the things I find most appealing in Buddhism or Hinduism (which are very much things that are at the forefront of these religions), are practiced by VERY FEW Reform Jews, and these things are given very little attention in general. They just don't play the same role in Judaism as they do in Buddhism in Hinduism... so I hope you can understand that it's not as simple as 'hey buddhist and jews both have meditation traditions.. so why not just stay within Judaism and meditate?" The value, focus, and attention placed upon meditation for Buddhism and Hinduism is a world a part compared to Judaism. I hope you realize this.

And yes! you are right that for Orthodox Jews like yourself, these things do receive far more attention! But the key problem here, which I've stated before, is that I simply don't relate to Orthodox Judaism. I just don't feel a strong connection/motive for actively pursuing the mitzvot, which is the bread and butter of orthodox Judaism. So sure, maybe Jewish mysticsm plays a huge role in the Orthodox world, but again, it is a heck of a lot easier for me to relate to super inclusive Buddhists or Hindus as compared to Orthodox Jews.. there are a LOT of things you need to do or believe to be considered an Orthodox Jew, and my path simply hasnt taken me there.

Hopefully this clears a few things up

 

[Caladan]

First of all, let me just say that I have enjoyed reading your responses here, especially since you are covering more angles than I have.

With the above, let me just qualify this by saying that I do believe one doesn't have to eat the entire enchilada in order to appreciate its taste. IOW, someone may pick-and-choose from dharma that which they find useful without necessarily going to the point of actually becoming Buddhist, and HHDL has said and even encouraged as such, for example.

Thank you for the feedback, and I do definitely agree with what you said above. It is simply also important for me to tell Tumah that Jews from all sectors are still likely to turn to sources of Jewish wisdom and even tradition before carelessly putting 'foreign' practices on a pedestal. So to speak.
We simply live in an age (well decades) in which diffusion of ideas happens in unparalleled levels, making familiarity with various elements of world religion accessible, and still much of this familiarity is still subjective and superficial. But that does not mean that it always is, or that it necessarily has to be.
Also it is completely true, that there is no need to adopt and study each and every aspect of every philosophy or practice, unless one has an inclination to do so.

 

[Ablaze]

With the above, let me just qualify this by saying that I do believe one doesn't have to eat the entire enchilada in order to appreciate its taste. IOW, someone may pick-and-choose from dharma that which they find useful without necessarily going to the point of actually becoming Buddhist, and HHDL has said and even encouraged as such, for example.

HHDL does not encourage a "pick and choose" approach. Cherry picking the dharma is ultimately unhelpful and leads to unnecessary confusion. What HHDL does encourage is respecting the religion into which one was born while being open to other paths of practice. In other words, drawing inspiration from Buddhism while maintaining one's previous religious commitments.

"I always tell my Western friends that it is best to keep your own tradition. Changing religion is not easy and sometimes causes confusion. You must value your tradition and honor your own religion."

His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama

Focusing on the practical applications of foundational concepts such as the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path cannot hurt. However, attempting to reconcile teachings such as anatta with the existence of a soul (as one example) is not advised.

 

[Tumah]

Buddhists do not worship idols, unless they're not at all familiar with dharma. Since Buddhism is non-theistic, why worship an idol?

Can you clarify the purpose of the Buddha statue?

I really don't understand where this is coming from.

Meaning you said that your issue with Jewish works were that they were based around G-d. So I am asking, if the word G-d was replaced with some non-theistic word would that have helped?

In Buddhism, there's no such approach as to supposedly establish a "universal truth" because that's probably too evasive. All dharma is subject to evidence, including our own personal experiences, and if the evidence indicates that a particular teaching is wrong, then it should be abandoned. This is the exact same approach used in science, btw. This is not to say that there are not some "universal truths" but that attempting to determine what they are is quite problematic.

I think that science expects there to be universal truths and only sets about trying to determine what they are. Had the creation come with a handy notebook describing them all, there would be no need for science. Judaism's claim is that we have the handy notebook.

"Ashrams" are Hindu, "sanghas" are Buddhist-- sorry to be picky . Another picky point is that one's "Jewishness" isn't determined by what we may believe, but one's "Judaism" may. Anyhow, I know what you were trying to say, so please don't be offended by the corrections.

I've never heard of a sangha. I thought Ashrams were everyone gets together to meditate. So that's good to know.
I'm not really sure how you are defining Jewishness and Judaism. For me there are practicing Jews and non-yet-practicing Jews.

To try and answer your question using brevity, I just have to repeat the Judaism is theistic and Buddhism isn't. However, what many JuBu's do is to take Buddhist dharma, which doesn't posit or deny the possibility of a God or Gods, and apply it to their own lives and their own religious faith.

I think the best thing for me to do at this point is to start covering dharma since you and some others have this curiosity, so let me start of with the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, which I'll put on a follow-up post. Please realize, however, that dharma doesn't stop there, so some follow-up on the follow-up will likely be necessary. Again, I'm not here to try and sell you or anyone else that this is the approach they should take.

I think that would actually be a really great idea. And you don't have to worry, I'm not in the market looking to buy!

 

[Tumah]

That is a pretty ambivalent perspective. While it may be the case that some Jews are missing something which exists in Judaism, it is equally fair to say that some people find sources of information, practices, or inspiration in a myriad of other sources. And while the two aren't mutually exclusive, in many of the cases the people involved have preferences which rely on elaborate knowledge of their own sensibilities, the Jewish religion, and the 'alternative'.

I understand that. I'm trying to find out why.

Anything else to work with here?

What do you mean?

I think you are right to say that you are biased. Other people try to be impartial and to objectively understand themselves better. Or in plan language, to find what works for them.

Obviously. But I'd still like to know if there is anyone who actually tried what Judaism had to offer and wasn't interested.

That's fairly vague. However, assuming such an authentic and practical form of worship/meditation does exist inside Judaism, it is obvious then that it is very inaccessible to common people who wish to improve their quality of life, comfortably, and without hangups, or extra baggage.

Nope. It just comes with the social stigma of having to associate with Orthodox Jews.

The *only* difference? As far as I am concerned it is a huge difference. It is physically and mentally engaging, it is part of a series of body movements which develop flexibility, strength and also serve as cardiovascular exercise.
I am not really talking about any side having a truth. In fact I am not really in a general quest after truths in my personal life. The entire post above makes zero sense to me because it is your subjective belief, I have no way to understand it. I am not a firm believer in spiritual or supernatural realities nor that the commandments have spiritual merit, only perhaps in some cases moral merit, and even in the latter case it is anachronistic to the modern era in which we have made huge steps in creating an elaborate social and legal codes.

My statement wasn't meant to degrade. I meant it as a way of eliciting more information from you. So you are right. There are no Jewish practices to my knowledge that target the body as it is geared more for the soul. There is a commandment to maintain a healthy body though, but I guess that is expected to be taken care of in addition to everything else.

[

Personally, I find Halacha observance to be an anathema to true meditative life. Instead I find it to be a way of halting the natural flow and harmony of life. For example, the Sabbath is turned from a day of rest and reflection, into a day of obsessing whether insignificant details of routine are permissible or not, de facto turning a holy day of rest into a day of relentlessness and holding yourself accountable for mundane actions.

That is an interesting example. The Halachos of the Sabbath are all geared towards preventing creative activities. The Sabbath represents the last spiritual attribute of reception. The Earth that receives the rain of the Heavens. The Man that receives the Divine from G-d. In order to gain the most benefit from the day one must attenuate to it. Does Buddhism have a similar idea?

You are still pretty vague. Progressing into the Kabbalistic? How? With which group? There is plenty of Kabbalistic literature. Some of it is interesting. However I never actually met a true Kabbalist, only people who lecture about it, and most of it sounds either like New Age, or regular conservative orthodoxy. In other words, while I do read and have plenty of interest in Kabbalah, I find it to be extremely underdeveloped in Jewish society.

True in-depth study of Kabballah requires a certain amount of proficiency in the Talmud and Halacha. It was put together by great Talmudic scholars and follows similar modes of learning.

Come to Israel. I will introduce you to the real kabbalists. The ones who come from the actual chain of "Receiving" that dates back centuries.

Judaism and Eastern religions have different historical, regional, and cultural circumstances so the two (more really) traditions are bound to offer different spiritual jewels. However, in general it is also depending on what the person specifically looks for. Because in general I do agree that the eastern philosophies and religions many people in 'the West' are looking into or think they explore are watered down versions of traditions which are at the end of the day also patriarchal, conservative and restrictive in many ways in their native lands.
So in general, I do agree that people owe it to themselves to understand their own heritage better, and also find their point of reference to it, before looking for 'wisdom' in eastern religions in what sometimes is simply a superficial way.

Well you would know more about the first point, but the second point is exactly what I'm saying.

 

[crossfire]

Can you clarify the purpose of the Buddha statue?

I don't venerate any statues or idols. However, I do like contemplating the symbolism of the five dhyani Buddhas, each representing the transformation of a negative emotion into a different wisdom--transforming anger/aggression into clear mirror-like wisdom, transforming pride into the wisdom of equality, transforming desire into the wisdom of discernment, transforming jealousy/envy into all accomplishing wisdom, and transforming ignorance into dharma teaching wisdom. These are just representations of inner transformation that employ a lot of information for the process through some rich symbolism. (At least that is how I use it. As a contemplation tool.)

 

[Tumah]

I will use the Buddhanet.net website for the first part:

The Four Noble Truths

1.The first noble truth is that life is frustrating and painful...

2.The second noble truth is that suffering has a cause...

3.The third noble truth is that the cause of suffering can be ended... [actually most will say not "ended" but ameliorated]

4.This is the fourth noble truth: the way, or path to end the cause of suffering.[/B] [this is where the Eightfold Path comes into the picture-- and explanations and examples of the above can be found on this page: A Basic Buddhism Guide: Introduction to Buddhism. ]

I am understanding "Noble Truth" to mean "Universal Truths" or "things that apply to everyone". So the main idea behind Buddhism is that "we're all in pain and this is the way to make the hurt stop". Is that correct?

The Eightfold Path

1. Right* Understanding (Samma ditthi)
2. Right Thought (Samma sankappa)
3. Right Speech (Samma vaca)
4. Right Action (Samma kammanta)
5. Right Livelihood (Samma ajiva)
6. Right Effort (Samma vayama)
7. Right Mindfulness (Samma sati)
8. Right Concentration (Samma samadhi) -- The Eightfold Path | Tricycle [the site includes explanations of each]

*Please note that substituting the word "appropriate" is actually a better term to use than "right" since different situations sometimes call for different approaches.

I am understanding the Eight-fold Path to be practices one undertakes. In other words, one should practice the correct way of thinking, understanding etc. Is that correct?

 

[Caladan]

Obviously. But I'd still like to know if there is anyone who actually tried what Judaism had to offer and wasn't interested.

I'm sure you can even find strict orthodox Jews who have left the bosom of orthodox Judaism and later went on to explore other philosophies and practices.

My statement wasn't meant to degrade. I meant it as a way of eliciting more information from you. So you are right. There are no Jewish practices to my knowledge that target the body as it is geared more for the soul. There is a commandment to maintain a healthy body though, but I guess that is expected to be taken care of in addition to everything else

Well that is what people like me are looking for. My Jewish experience relies on things which are closer to my heart. Military service, justice, spending time in the Israeli outdoors, studying the scriptures without what I consider the bias of oral Judaism and the Talmud which to me are of lesser value in my system of ideals and ethos. Etc. I see my Hebrew existence to derive its inspiration from the legacy of Warrior-Poets and Prophets and much less from the sages of Late Antiquity.

That is an interesting example. The Halachos of the Sabbath are all geared towards preventing creative activities. The Sabbath represents the last spiritual attribute of reception. The Earth that receives the rain of the Heavens. The Man that receives the Divine from G-d. In order to gain the most benefit from the day one must attenuate to it.

In my mind, thinking that you MUST relax on your weekend is not really something which would make me feel comfortable. And certainly keeping in mind that I am forbidden from doing various activities. Not working, yeap that can be great.

Does Buddhism have a similar idea?

I'll let the Buddhists answer that first.

True in-depth study of Kabballah requires a certain amount of proficiency in the Talmud and Halacha. It was put together by great Talmudic scholars and follows similar modes of learning.

There is no doubt that in order to understand Kabbalistic literature one has to have solid knowledge not only of the Talmud and Jewish tradition, but also the Hebrew Bible and the development of mystical Jewish thought in antiquity.

Come to Israel. I will introduce you to the real kabbalists. The ones who come from the actual chain of "Receiving" that dates back centuries.

I am living in Israel, but who is this dynasty you are referring to?

Well you would know more about the first point, but the second point is exactly what I'm saying.

Ironically many Jews consider the second point to apply to various forms of Judaism just as it applies to eastern religions. For example the average Jewish society in Israel frowns on young Israelis 'conversion' to orthodoxy just as it might frown on their flirtations with eastern practices. Both seem like grazing in foreign pastures.

 

[crossfire]

That is an interesting example. The Halachos of the Sabbath are all geared towards preventing creative activities. The Sabbath represents the last spiritual attribute of reception. The Earth that receives the rain of the Heavens. The Man that receives the Divine from G-d. In order to gain the most benefit from the day one must attenuate to it. Does Buddhism have a similar idea?

Uposatha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Introductory lines from the wiki article:

The Uposatha (Sanskrit: Upavasatha) is Buddhist day of observance, in existence from the Buddha's time (500 BCE), and still being kept today in Buddhist countries.[1][2] The Buddha taught that the Uposatha day is for "the cleansing of the defiled mind," resulting in inner calm and joy.[3] On this day, lay disciples and monks intensify their practice, deepen their knowledge and express communal commitment through millennia-old acts of lay-monastic reciprocity. On these days, the lay followers make a conscious effort to keep the Five Precepts or (as the tradition suggests) the Eight Precepts. It is a day for practicing the Buddha's teachings and meditation.​

Traditionally occurring on day of new moon, first quarter, full moon, and last quarter--so about once a week.

 

[Tumah]

There are so many great posts in this thread! In particular, I find it very interesting to hear an Orthodox Jew say what you have just said.. especially that there is essentially no inherent problem with the NT, the problem lies with the Church.

I didn't make that up. Rabbi Yakov Emden said it first about 250 years ago. His opinion was that the original NT authors were attempting to get Jews to remain practicing Jews and to teach non-Jews the 7 Noahide Laws. Based on this observation he answers a number of contradictions in the texts.

So it would be more accurate to say, that depending what you are and which part of the NT you are reading, there is nothing wrong with it.

If you don't find that well-known among Orthodox Jews, its because we usually don't bother learning about Christianity.

You say "the problematic belief" is to elevate oneself above other men. I want to assure you, that the "Incarnation Theology" I'm referring to in NO WAY puts any person above another. We are all on an equal playing field essentially. We are all divine.. most of us just don't realize it. I must admit, I do not feel like I can fully explain to you exactly what I want to mean by "Incarnation Theology" - for I have not obtained full Self-Realization yet.. which I feel would be necessary for giving you the best possible definition. I still am in the state of "maya" (ignorance, delusion).

I have a question. If this is a realization that you need to come to by experiencing it subjectively, how do you know that the next person is experiencing the same idea. For instance, let's say you fully experience your Divine nature and so does Fred. How do you know that the nature of your Divinity is the same as his without an objective point of reference?

"Once you bind the infinite, then it is also finite.". - This is simply not so. In a "non-dualistic" view of the God or Infinite, the Infinite embraces both the One and the Many while still remaining to be its distinct self. In other words, the Infinite embraces the finite (which is quite intuitive if you think about it, for the Infinite by definition would contain everything within it, including the finite).. so the Infinite embraces the finite without loosing its "Infinite" nature, or without annihilating the finite. You seem to think the Infinite "opposes" the finite, but "opposition" is a property only finite things can have. The Infinite opposes nothing. The Infinite is Infinite! How could it possibly oppose anything? To oppose is to be subject to a limitation. Rather for a non-dual view of God, the Infinite does not oppose the finite, it wholly embraces it without losing its infinite nature. To say I am "God-Incarnate" is not to put a bound on God, but is to realize that my true inner identity is completely one with God. This is all I can say for now. Perhaps this is not heretical to Judaism?

That is a very interesting idea and it helped me better understand how the universe can exist at the same time G-d does. There are two opposing opinions brought down in Judaism one that the world is an illusion and one that the universe must be real.

Until now I only understood the first explanation. G-d is infinite. To my understanding true Infinite-ness must exist on all planes. If I can point to a chair and say this is a chair, then I am saying on some level, G-d is not here, a chair is here. And that contradicts G-d's Infinite nature. Therefore there must not really be a chair here, it is only my perception which is being blinded.

Your explanation is that nothing can contradict G-d's Infinite nature and therefore something can exist. I need to think about it more. Off-hand, I would say the problem is the opposite: Infinite was here first, anything that comes afterwards is existing on a plane that it should not be able to because It already is Everything/Everywhere.

Either way, I was not saying that G-d doesn't exist everywhere. I was saying that He can't be bound to anything. In other words, I can't say that G-d Himself is inside me, because G-d is everywhere and He can't be more inside me than inside the rock. There is no more or less in regards to G-d Himself, only in how much He is revealed. But that is also not what my soul is, otherwise there would be no difference between me and a rock.

I would like to add one last major point to help answer your main question. From your posts so far, it appears that most of the things I find appealing about Eastern religions has its counterpart in Judaism. You seem to think, well why doesnt one just stay in Judaism then? Caladan gave some great points in post #22. But I would like to add the following point for myself: Yes, most of what I can find in Buddhism or Hinduism has a slight counterpart in Judaism. The Key difference, in my mind, is the freedom one feels while doing these things in Buddhism, for example, because Buddhism is a completely inclusive religion (in general). The main issue I've always had with Judaism is the sense of exclusiveness. It's hard to become a Jew, and there has been, historically, a sharp distinction between "Jew" and "Gentile." So to practice Jewish meditation for example, I have a very small, exclusive community in which I can interact with. And I really do want to stress the point that in my experience thus far, the things I find most appealing in Buddhism or Hinduism (which are very much things that are at the forefront of these religions), are practiced by VERY FEW Reform Jews, and these things are given very little attention in general. They just don't play the same role in Judaism as they do in Buddhism in Hinduism... so I hope you can understand that it's not as simple as 'hey buddhist and jews both have meditation traditions.. so why not just stay within Judaism and meditate?" The value, focus, and attention placed upon meditation for Buddhism and Hinduism is a world a part compared to Judaism. I hope you realize this.

It's hard for me to hear that Judaism is an exclusive religion. To my knowledge the door has (almost) always been open for anyone to join provided they can verify their sincerity. I know a number of converts. Most of them Hasidic actually.

My perception of Judaism has been that it is the key to a lock. There is a structure and pattern to the creation, nothing is haphazard. Just as there are physical structures and realities, there are spiritual ones too. Judaism is the framework to tap into those spiritual structures to benefit my soul.

For instance:
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob manifested in themselves the Divine attributes of Kindness, Strict-Judgement, and Mercy respectively. These attributes are similarly represented by the left, right and center of my body. I have the ability to access the Divine Flow of these attributes. I want to receive Kindness and Mercy. I would like to "ameliorate" the amount of Strict-Judgement that comes to me. So, my right arm binds my left in the straps of the Tefillin. This is my Kindness taking dominance over my Strict-Judgment. It is also why Abraham performed the binding of Isaac. I can say, "I don't want to put on Tefillin because it doesn't speak to me". But that is just ignoring the Spiritual reality, not changing it.

So in a way, you are right. The focus in Judaism is generally not towards meditation (not away from it either, but just not towards). But this is not because it doesn't have importance. Rather it is because the most important thing is to first get yourself into a position where you are already receiving the maximum spiritual benefit you can. Creating in yourself the right "shape" vessel to receive the maximum amount of Divine Flow. Once that is accomplished, you can then work on tapping into that Flow. But you need the base first. That is a spiritual reality. The structure that G-d created. Judaism is the framework needed to tap into that structure.

In my opinion, that is why you will find elements of Judaism in many Eastern cultures. Because the Spiritual Truths are Universal. Only without a Book to know them all, a human can only figure out so many of them on his own. And so you have the Chakras of Hinduism and the Oneness of everything in Buddhism. The Yin-Yang of Taoism.

And yes! you are right that for Orthodox Jews like yourself, these things do receive far more attention! But the key problem here, which I've stated before, is that I simply don't relate to Orthodox Judaism. I just don't feel a strong connection/motive for actively pursuing the mitzvot, which is the bread and butter of orthodox Judaism. So sure, maybe Jewish mysticsm plays a huge role in the Orthodox world, but again, it is a heck of a lot easier for me to relate to super inclusive Buddhists or Hindus as compared to Orthodox Jews.. there are a LOT of things you need to do or believe to be considered an Orthodox Jew, and my path simply hasnt taken me there.

Hopefully this clears a few things up

So basically, the turn-off of Judaism are the Laws. Well, I hope I've explained how the role of mysticism is intrinsic to the Laws. But I can understand your answer. I guess that's been a complaint since the time of the NT!