For the JuBu's...

[Tumah]

They certainly didn't stay because they found full fulfillment, and many certainly left because they suffered. As for not putting effort into themselves, that is highly subjective. I've heard plenty of stories of people who wanted to keep believing but circumstances provoked disillusionment.

I'm sure you have. But there are that many more that have left for the reasons I mentioned. I've met many of them.

Should I conclude from the above that the Prophetic writings, Hebrew legacy of old, and the Land of Israel are distant from God and our lineage, and that Talmudic Judaism supersedes Biblical Judaism?

Please explain the difference between Biblical Judaism and Sadducean Theology.

Well I would tell you that it's quite anthropological to consume Psilocybin mushrooms before ritual, but it's also a bit like cheating.

I'm not sure what you meant here.

Which point? If we are to go into white light again then that these certainly not the points I'm looking for when reading the literature of the Zohar for example. But to answer your question, I have a solid enough reading background and understanding of Jewish tradition to keep my neck above the water and survive the reading of Medieval Kabbalistic literature, and earlier Hekhalot literature.

I specifically was not referring to that. In the words of Rabbi Chaim Vital, Kabbalists "reveal a handspan and hide two handspans". In other words, their works are not meant to be understood according their simplistic meaning. To understand the full implication of a passage in the Talmud one must be aware of all the other relevant passages throughout the Talmud as well as passages that don't appear to have relevancy at first sight. The Kabbalistic works are based on the same principles and additionally require the neophite to be well versed in Talmudic ideas. It is for this reason the Kabbalists (and the Talmud) require that one "fill ones belly with meat and wine"- a metaphor for the Talmud and various Halachic opinions - before entering the sea of Kabballah.

Barring these pre-requisites, one is bound to understand the Kabballah on a superficial level, no different then any other New Age Kabbalist.

Thanks, but no thanks. No offence meant he just never inspired me morally or spiritually.

Oh was the issue inspiration or meeting a real kabbalist?

Tracing their lineage to a person we cannot even trace in historical records? Is this like the way the British monarchy is carrying the Davidic lineage? That to me, is charlatanism.

Have you heard of the Y-Chromosomal Aaron research?

Teachers who need to reaffirm their reputation by appropriating the legacy and heritage of past are weak in their understanding of the world. In my personal experience of course. Aragorn certainly never made a big fuss that he was Isildur's heir. And although fictional, the narratives illustrate what a true man of character is. And what true humility is.

I don't catch the reference. But maintaining a proof of lineage has Halachic ramifications- especially for a Cohen. It has no relevancy to his Rabbinical status or level of erudition. I was only pointing it out because I thought it was interesting as their are only one or two main families that can make this claim an he happens to be part of one of them.

The 'orthodox' Jews of yesterday are not those of today. There was never such division between labor and study as in the present age. Jews in past centuries plowed the field during the day and studied the Torah at night. Many still do just that, they just don't call themselves 'orthodox' (although of course some do).
Or in the words of Maimonides: "Anyone who decides to study Torah and not work, making his living from charity, desecrates Hashem's name , disgraces the Torah ...and any Torah that is not accompanied by work will lead to it's own undoing and cause sin."

I agree that there has never been such a great division between labor and study as there is today. However, that doesn't mean that there never had been any at all. The Talmud speaks about a group that did make study their occupation. Also, the Talmud mentions that in the time of Chizkiyahu, even the children were well versed in the most complicated of Halachos.

Also, if we are going to bring the Rambam, perhaps we should also mention his 3 hours working 9 hours learning rule (Hilchos Talmud Torah 1:12)? Unless you are already well versed in all the Rabbinical opinion it seems silly to quote the one or two you know. Our Rabbinical leaders know them too and the ones you don't know as well.

My point was not to take a stab at non-Orthodox Jews. My point was that without Orthodox Jews for the past 2,000 years, the Torah would have long ago been relegated to the dusty annals of the history books. And without it, there would have been no Zionists. Judging by the rate of intermarriage among non-Orthodox, there would have also been no Jews.

 

[crossfire]

Ok, Luis, no worries. I have an idea that might get us out of this quandary.

The idea relates to the interaction between JuBu concepts and Renewal Judaism. I posted to the Site Feedback thread.

CF- maybe we should make you an honorary JuBu, then you could vote too .

Well heck, I'm honored.
Let's say I'm a Buddhist shopping around Judaism for ways to enhance my practice. My specific questions would be:

Is there any Jewish practice specifically geared towards:

• transforming anger/aggression into clear, mirror like vision? (So you will no longer be "blinded by rage.")
• transforming pride/conceit/greed into holistic perspective of equality?
• transforming desire/attachment/selfishness into discernment and appreciation of the uniqueness of each individual and situation?
• transforming jealousy/envy into empathetic joy for the accomplishment of others and inspiration to work hard to accomplish the same thing for yourself? (Instead of coveting your neighbor's success)
• transforming ignorance into the wisdom of reality?
• transforming hatred into compassion--learning to love your enemies?

I would be overjoyed to learn of such practices within Judaism, and would be even more overjoyed if these practices were widely practiced, to the benefit of all those engaging in such practices! :yes:

 

[Avi1001]

Have you heard of the Y-Chromosomal Aaron research?

I do not care for this approach. It seeks to make Judaism a genetic trait. In my view Judaism is an enlightenment.

I don't catch the reference. But maintaining a proof of lineage has Halachic ramifications- especially for a Cohen. It has no relevancy to his Rabbinical status or level of erudition. I was only pointing it out because I thought it was interesting as their are only one or two main families that can make this claim an he happens to be part of one of them.

Are you a Cohen ?

I agree that there has never been such a great division between labor and study as there is today. However, that doesn't mean that there never had been any at all. The Talmud speaks about a group that did make study their occupation. Also, the Talmud mentions that in the time of Chizkiyahu, even the children were well versed in the most complicated of Halachos.

If you want to make study your occupation work at a university. Do not ask the state to pay for you to make a career out of study.

Also, if we are going to bring the Rambam, perhaps we should also mention his 3 hours working 9 hours learning rule (Hilchos Talmud Torah 1:12)? Unless you are already well versed in all the Rabbinical opinion it seems silly to quote the one or two you know. Our Rabbinical leaders know them too and the ones you don't know as well.

Work 3 hours, study 9 ? Only if you are Rambam. What is your ratio ?

My point was not to take a stab at non-Orthodox Jews. My point was that without Orthodox Jews for the past 2,000 years, the Torah would have long ago been relegated to the dusty annals of the history books. And without it, there would have been no Zionists. Judging by the rate of intermarriage among non-Orthodox, there would have also been no Jews.

We've already established your feelings about Reform on another thread.

 

[Tumah]

Well heck, I'm honored.
Let's say I'm a Buddhist shopping around Judaism for ways to enhance my practice. My specific questions would be:

Is there any Jewish practice specifically geared towards:

• transforming anger/aggression into clear, mirror like vision? (So you will no longer be "blinded by rage.")
• transforming pride/conceit/greed into holistic perspective of equality?
• transforming desire/attachment/selfishness into discernment and appreciation of the uniqueness of each individual and situation?
• transforming jealousy/envy into empathetic joy for the accomplishment of others and inspiration to work hard to accomplish the same thing for yourself? (Instead of coveting your neighbor's success)
• transforming ignorance into the wisdom of reality?
• transforming hatred into compassion--learning to love your enemies?

I would be overjoyed to learn of such practices within Judaism, and would be even more overjoyed if these practices were widely practiced, to the benefit of all those engaging in such practices! :yes:

There is something called Mussar which is a genre of literature geared towards improving the self. There was even a Mussar movement that was started by Rabbi Yisroel Salanter who opened schools that encouraged the establishment of Mussar study within the normal Yeshivah curriculum. Today it is standard. However, the Mussar genre was already well established for easily 700 years if not longer.

According to the Mussar works (as far as I know the source is Sha'arei Kedushah), the natures of Man are split into the four elements:
Fire- Haughtiness, Pride, Anger, Power and Chasing-after-honor (is there a word for that in English?)
Water- Desire, Jealousy, Lust
Air- Talkativeness, Empty Speech, Evil Tongue
Earth- Laziness and Sadness

My understanding (based on the work "Alei Shor) is that a person will have these four elements within his personality to various proportions. The solution is to work on the opposite of the trait: Humility for Fire; Disgust of Physical Pleasure for Water; Quietness for Air; and Happiness for Earth.

That is the general idea. The various Mussar works then deal with any number of these individual character traits as well as other more Spiritual ones. There is no one way because everyone is different and every individual will associate better to a given Mussar work. Many Yeshivah create "Va'adim", which are small groups of students who get together -usually under the guidance of a Rabbi- to study a certain Mussar work, or focus on an individual character trait through the study of various works that discuss that trait.

 

[Tumah]

I do not care for this approach. It seeks to make Judaism a genetic trait. In my view Judaism is an enlightenment.

As interesting as that idea might be, it seems to completely disregard the fact that there are genetic markers whether you choose to acknowledge them or not.

Are you a Cohen ?

Nope, Ysroel.

If you want to make study your occupation work at a university. Do not ask the state to pay for you to make a career out of study.

I'm going to choose not to turn this thread into a political debate. Thanks.

Work 3 hours, study 9 ? Only if you are Rambam. What is your ratio ?

Aha. So when its something you don't like, then it only applies to the Rambam. When its something you agree with it applies to me too?

We've already established your feelings about Reform on another thread.

Ok. Although there is nothing here that is relevant to that. I was merely pointing out what may very well have been the reality if present statistics are any indication.

It could be that a continuation of this discussion with you- if that is what you want, might be better off in a different DIR as this isn't the debate DIR and I don't want this thread to get closed if possible.

 

[metis]

HHDL does not encourage a "pick and choose" approach. Cherry picking the dharma is ultimately unhelpful and leads to unnecessary confusion. What HHDL does encourage is respecting the religion into which one was born while being open to other paths of practice. In other words, drawing inspiration from Buddhism while maintaining one's previous religious commitments.

I do agree. However, do remember that followers are to test all teachings as we are not asked to blindly follow all.

 

[punkdbass]

I'm sorry to break this to you, but from a vaiShNava perspective, comparing an avaidika (non-Hindu) deity like hashem to an avatAra or vyUha (let alone a pUrNAvatAra) of shrIman nArAyaNa is indeed a severe aparAdha (as MV said) and is a sign of an atimUDha. shrIkR^iShNa's sharIra is made of shuddha-tattva, not of the panchamahAbhUtAni, so to say that he is merely one with brahman (which is merely aspect of shrIkR^iShNa) in order to please Jews, who worship a non-Hindu deity, makes NO sense from a vaiShNava perspective. shrIkR^iShNa/shrIviShNu takes the shankha-chakra-gadA dhArI (or in the case of shrIkR^iShNa, the muralidhara) rUpam in order to please the devotee; however, that does not diminish his importance or his majesty, he is STILL svayambhagavAn. Just as he does not choose to exist on your terms, he does not become diminished on your terms. Even shiva, the paramadevatA, derives his power from kR^iShNa (from a vaiShNava standpoint), so how can a mere jIva decrease his importance? Still, I agree that this isn't a vaiShNava thread (so my comments may have been misplaced), but I'd like to clarify your view is not vedAntic either. I'm sure bAdarAyaNa would never agree with this sort of radical-universalism; in fact, your comments are vaguely aurobindo/vivekAnanda-esque. I'm sorry if my statement seems harsh, I'm just upset that heretical views (like jesus being a yogI or shrIkR^iShNa being inferior to "hashem") continually get passed off as Hindu views, when they are at best "neo-Hindu." I understand that "Hinduism" is diverse and that different darshana-s and sampradAya-s differ greatly in some matters, but that does not give one the excuse to espouse whatever view they like without proper shAstra-pramANa or base their views entirely off misconceptions. I'm offended by the view of ahmadiyya muslims that kR^iShNa is a "prophet" of their god (allah), but at least they don't claim that their view is in accordance with "Hinduism."

Anyway, I think I should share the following verse about shrIkR^iShNa from the madhurAShTakam of vallabhAchArya:

वेणुर् मधुरो रेणुर् मधुरः
पाणिर् मधुरः पादौ मधुरौ।
नृत्यं मधुरं सख्यं मधुरं
मधुराधिपतेर् अखिलं मधुरं॥३॥

Transliteration:
veNur madhuro reNur madhuraH
pANir madhuraH pAdau madhurau|
nR^ityaM madhuraM sakhyaM madhuraM
madhurAdhipater akhilaM madhuraM|| 3 ||

Translation:
"His flute is sweet; his foot-dust is sweet;
his lotus hands are sweet; his feet are sweet;
his dancing is sweet; his friendship is sweet;
everything is completely sweet about the lord of sweetness"

Your views are misplaced. Did I ever claim to be Hindu? No. Did I ever claim that my views were in accordance with Hinduism? No. I am a Jew interested in Eastern philosophy, and I believe what I believe.. and the OP wanted to get a better understanding of why I believe what I believe. Your post is out of line, if you want to educate me on Hinduism, feel free, but this is not the place to do it - at least not with the argumentative, condescending tone you have. If you feel insulted, trying to insult me as well is probably not the best course of action..

And I did clarify that the "beliefs" I've shared in this thread are not strong convictions for me, they are merely ideas that I have found very intellectually appealing lately.. but I'm still very much seeking and learning, my beliefs are constantly in flux. I would love to learn more about Hinduism, as you have probably seen from my other posts, but I don't appreciate having my current beliefs belittled. Even the OP, to whom my beliefs couldn't possibly be more heretical, has treated me with great respect..

 

[Avi1001]

Well heck, I'm honored.
Let's say I'm a Buddhist shopping around Judaism for ways to enhance my practice. My specific questions would be:

Is there any Jewish practice specifically geared towards:
transforming anger/aggression into clear, mirror like vision? (So you will no longer be "blinded by rage.")

I am not aware of any such practices. Actually, I think many Jews struggle with this. I think Buddhism and Eastern traditions may be ahead of us on this. I have heard that Kabbalist practice might include meditation, but I am not a Kabbalist, and know little about it. One of the problems is that Kabbalah study has traditionally been a secret and guarded study. Thanks to Madanna and the Bergs for changing all that .

[*]transforming pride/conceit/greed into holistic perspective of equality?

Interesting question. In my experience, as a group, Jews are very generous. I know other stereotypes have developed, especially in the time of Shakespeare.

[*]transforming desire/attachment/selfishness into discernment and appreciation of the uniqueness of each individual and situation?

As opposed to selfishness, I believe generosity is very much a Jewish value. But I think the notion of attachment is more unique to Buddhism, and is a great example of how interfaith discussion could be of value.

[*]transforming jealousy/envy into empathetic joy for the accomplishment of others and inspiration to work hard to accomplish the same thing for yourself? (Instead of coveting your neighbor's success)

As you know, very much Jewish values.

[*]transforming ignorance into the wisdom of reality?
[*]transforming hatred into compassion--learning to love your enemies?
[/list]
I would be overjoyed to learn of such practices within Judaism, and would be even more overjoyed if these practices were widely practiced, to the benefit of all those engaging in such practices! :yes:

I believe the heart of Jewish practice involves study with the goals of understanding and self improvement. The idea of Tikkun Olum is creation of a better world.

 

[Avi1001]

As interesting as that idea might be, it seems to completely disregard the fact that there are genetic markers whether you choose to acknowledge them or not.

I've seen too many play the race card. If you go there, I will call you on it.

Nope, Ysroel.

Me too.

I'm going to choose not to turn this thread into a political debate. Thanks.

I am not interested in talking politics with you either. I only talk politics with friends. I was making a practical point. 75% study and 25% work is not a good balance. Is that your balance ?

Aha. So when its something you don't like, then it only applies to the Rambam. When its something you agree with it applies to me too?

Actually, please do not presume to know anything about me. I am a very big fan of Maimonides. He was an Arisitotealian, and I am very much in support of him for that. And you are no Maimonides !

Ok. Although there is nothing here that is relevant to that. I was merely pointing out what may very well have been the reality if present statistics are any indication.

It could be that a continuation of this discussion with you- if that is what you want, might be better off in a different DIR as this isn't the debate DIR and I don't want this thread to get closed if possible.

You claim that everything I say, that disagrees with you, is debating. This is a very weak debate technique. It will not work, sorry.

And more likely than closed, this thread will probably be moved, because you put it in the Buddhist DIR, but if you read the comments of the Buddhist posters, they see little connection you have made to Buddhism. Good thing Metis and punkdbass are here or it would have already been moved.

 

[metis]

Can you clarify the purpose of the Buddha statue?

It's a reminder, and all religions use reminders of one type or another.

Meaning you said that your issue with Jewish works were that they were based around G-d. So I am asking, if the word G-d was replaced with some non-theistic word would that have helped?

Not really.

I think that science expects there to be universal truths and only sets about trying to determine what they are. Had the creation come with a handy notebook describing them all, there would be no need for science. Judaism's claim is that we have the handy notebook.

Yes, there is this "handy notebook", but does one have to supposedly believe it is entirely or partially of divine origin, and that's a question I cannot answer?

I'm not really sure how you are defining Jewishness and Judaism. For me there are practicing Jews and non-yet-practicing Jews.

I don't feel it's necessary to operate out of a dualistic approach, as I don't believe blindly following a set of rules that are of a conjectural source is the best way for me to go. To me, questioning has always been a large part of our tradition, although some like myself undoubtedly push the envelop a bit far.

 

[metis]

I am understanding "Noble Truth" to mean "Universal Truths" or "things that apply to everyone". So the main idea behind Buddhism is that "we're all in pain and this is the way to make the hurt stop". Is that correct?

I am understanding the Eight-fold Path to be practices one undertakes. In other words, one should practice the correct way of thinking, understanding etc. Is that correct?

The FNT and EP is where one is expected to start but not necessarily end. I believe I may have mentioned that any teaching can and should be tested.

 

[crossfire]

There is something called Mussar which is a genre of literature geared towards improving the self. There was even a Mussar movement that was started by Rabbi Yisroel Salanter who opened schools that encouraged the establishment of Mussar study within the normal Yeshivah curriculum. Today it is standard. However, the Mussar genre was already well established for easily 700 years if not longer.

According to the Mussar works (as far as I know the source is Sha'arei Kedushah), the natures of Man are split into the four elements:
Fire- Haughtiness, Pride, Anger, Power and Chasing-after-honor (is there a word for that in English?)
Water- Desire, Jealousy, Lust
Air- Talkativeness, Empty Speech, Evil Tongue
Earth- Laziness and Sadness

My understanding (based on the work "Alei Shor) is that a person will have these four elements within his personality to various proportions. The solution is to work on the opposite of the trait: Humility for Fire; Disgust of Physical Pleasure for Water; Quietness for Air; and Happiness for Earth.

That is the general idea. The various Mussar works then deal with any number of these individual character traits as well as other more Spiritual ones. There is no one way because everyone is different and every individual will associate better to a given Mussar work. Many Yeshivah create "Va'adim", which are small groups of students who get together -usually under the guidance of a Rabbi- to study a certain Mussar work, or focus on an individual character trait through the study of various works that discuss that trait.

Interesting! The elements and their associated traits--->action to practice in Buddhism are:

• water--anger/aggression--->humility
• earth--pride/conceit, greed---->giving
• fire--desire/attachment/selfishness (fire "clings" to its fuel)--->meditation
• air--jealousy, envy (could also include gossip)--->fearlessness
• space--laziness, inertia, tendency to materialism--->teaching

I'm glad to hear that there is also a similar practice within Judaism.

 

[Avi1001]

I don't feel it's necessary to operate out of a dualistic approach, as I don't believe blindly following a set of rules that are of a conjectural source is the best way for me to go. To me, questioning has always been a large part of our tradition, although some like myself undoubtedly push the envelop a bit far.

Metis, do you see any conflict between the practice of Judaism as a religion and Buddhism as a philosophy ?

Are you familiar with Kabbalistic meditation ? Can it provide similar benefits to Buddhist meditation ?

 

[punkdbass]

That is nice on a philosophical level. But let's say there was a concrete difference between the two of you. How would you know? For instance, let's say Fred's soul was blue. For blue souls, wearing squares elevates the blue soul. Your soul is green. For green souls you need to wear triangles. You have no objective standard to determine that Fred's soul is not the same as your soul. So you wear squares too and begin the Blue/square path to elevating the soul. Now 10 years later you have attained some elevation as a matter of course, but no where near the same level had you worn triangles this whole time. Alas, no one could tell you you had a green soul. And you think that your subjective experience of elevation with squares must be the same as Fred's. You'd never know.

I think there is a strong connection between all of us human beings, so it's hard for me to understand exactly what you mean by "there is a concrete difference" between mine and his soul. But anyways to play along, I would say the 10 years you tried doing "stuff that was fit for a blue soul," as long as you were being true to yourself and felt that the path you were taking was a great fit for you.. how could anyone possibly tell you that you are wrong? The only thing you are most certain of in life is your own experience.. the irony of what your saying here is how could you possibly know, or assert that I have a green soul and am on the wrong path? By what objective standard could you know this? How could you be more certain about my inner experience than I myself am?

Realization is a subjective, private, experience. That is inherently true. But we are talking about experiencing a concrete objective entity....Lastly, I don't completely agree with you that one can't experience the Divine. I am my soul and my soul is of the Divine. By removing myself from my physical body and entering the Spiritual realm where spacial and temporal dimensions are relaxed, I am much more freer to experience the Infinite

I realize this is probably just miscomunication due to semantics but no I am not referring to a "concrete objective" entity when I talk about about the Infinite or God. The Infinite is not "objective," it can't be made an object of experience, i.e. it cant be put into a box for it would literally obliterate all other possible objects of experiences! lol. If the Infinite was an object in the realm of sensation, how could you possibly ever have a sensation of anything else? The Infinite, if it were in the realm of sensation, would literally obliterate all other sensations! It would be the only thing you could sense since it is Infintie! lol do you kind of get what I'm trying to say?

I don't want to say one can't experience the Divine, although on a technical level this is true.. the Infinite can't be made an object of experience.. BUT, one can realize their true identity, or the identity of any being for that matter as being one with the infinite. And once you realize this, you realize that all of your experiences are one with the Infinite in some way. So yes, you do experience the Infinite in this manner.

I agree almost 100%. G-d does want us to think for ourselves and be intellectually free. However, he wants us to do be so under the best possible circumstances. I have children. I do not tell them to learn that crossing the street is dangerous by getting hit by a car. I teach them about the realities of life, so that they can steer it safely. So I think there is a reality to Spiritual life too and G-d wants us to navigate that safely as well. I don't look at the Commandments as arbitrary Laws, but as reflections of Spiritual realities. Each commandment has a specific purpose that works to my benefit as I've tried to illustrate with my tefillin example.

This is similar to how I would tell my 3 year old never to go into the street because its dangerous. But the concept of the possibility of being hit by a car is not understandable to the 3 year old mind. So instead I just put my rule in place and when she is older I explain it to her. But I don't let her play in the street until she is old enough to understand why its dangerous!!!

Interesting, I like this. Well my question for you then, is how can I know that the Torah (the guidebook you are referring too) is the best one for my soul? How can I know that I should stick primarily to Torah rather than other "guidebooks?" What would you say to me, based off of our current conversation, to try and convince me that my soul really is green, and that Torah really is the path meant for me? This is a challenging task, but I will listen with an open mind.

 

[Tumah]

It's a reminder, and all religions use reminders of one type or another.

As a point of reference, what be be an example of a Jewish reminder?

Yes, there is this "handy notebook", but does one have to supposedly believe it is entirely or partially of divine origin, and that's a question I cannot answer?

i think the analogy still fits. Should my three year old only trust me a little when I warn her about safety? Should I, as her loving father, rejoice when she wants to see for herself what happens when she plays in the street?

I don't feel it's necessary to operate out of a dualistic approach, as I don't believe blindly following a set of rules that are of a conjectural source is the best way for me to go.

Well I guess the key would be whether or not they only conjectural.

To me, questioning has always been a large part of our tradition, although some like myself undoubtedly push the envelop a bit far.

I would have said: questioning within a framework.

 

[metis]

Metis, do you see any conflict between the practice of Judaism as a religion and Buddhism as a philosophy ?

I think it mostly depends on how far one takes it. If one totally accepts dharma as the way for them to go, then it indeed is not to be accepted as "Judaism". OTOH, if one picks out of dharma that which is useful but not in opposition to Torah and/or halacha, then it can be accepted.

Do you know about Kabbalistic meditation ? Can it provide similar benefits to Buddhist meditation ?

I have only read about Kabbalah and I'm quite unfamiliar with Kabbalistic meditation". Maybe you can explain?

Let me just add this before writing your response to the above, and that is that there's all sorts of meditation techniques and reasons for doing it, including no reason whatsoever.

 

[metis]

As a point of reference, what be be an example of a Jewish reminder?

A muzuzah, for one. Actually we have all sorts of reminders.

i think the analogy still fits. Should my three year old only trust me a little when I warn her about safety? Should I, as her loving father, rejoice when she wants to see for herself what happens when she plays in the street?

But a child eventually grows to make decisions on their own, and it's very possible they may go against what they were originally taught, and they might be more correct in the final analysis.

I would have said: questioning within a framework.

Then you have just inadvertently formed a "creed". Where are the lines to be drawn and who will draw them? Yes, we definitely should look at what the sages have believed and taught, but then we have the full right to think on our own.

 

[Tumah]

I think there is a strong connection between all of us human beings, so it's hard for me to understand exactly what you mean by "there is a concrete difference" between mine and his soul. But anyways to play along, I would say the 10 years you tried doing "stuff that was fit for a blue soul," as long as you were being true to yourself and felt that the path you were taking was a great fit for you.. how could anyone possibly tell you that you are wrong? The only thing you are most certain of in life is your own experience.. the irony of what your saying here is how could you possibly know, or assert that I have a green soul and am on the wrong path? By what objective standard could you know this? How could you be more certain about my inner experience than I myself am?

Well that was the analogy: To imagine that there was an objective standard. Each individual is confined to his own subjective experience. But the analogy imagined that there was a way to receive objective information about the difference between two "colored" souls.

I realize this is probably just miscomunication due to semantics but no I am not referring to a "concrete objective" entity when I talk about about the Infinite or God. The Infinite is not "objective," it can't be made an object of experience, i.e. it cant be put into a box for it would literally obliterate all other possible objects of experiences! lol. If the Infinite was an object in the realm of sensation, how could you possibly ever have a sensation of anything else? The Infinite, if it were in the realm of sensation, would literally obliterate all other sensations! It would be the only thing you could sense since it is Infintie! lol do you kind of get what I'm trying to say?

I understood what you were saying from the original post. What I was saying is that we are not talking about experiencing the Infinite with one's physical senses or mental capacities. We are talking about experiencing the Infinite through the conduit of our own Divine-ness. That is overcoming our physical limitations.

A well-known rabbi recently took a nap and when he woke up, he made a celebratory meal for having finished an entire tractate during the nap. While he slept, his soul transcended the temporal dimension and he was able to complete a Tractate that should normal take at least a week or two at super fast speed (and I mean super-fast). The Arizal also was known to say that when he would take his 2-3 hour afternoon Sabbath nap, he would be taught a year's worth of information.

As I've mentioned before, our souls come from as close to G-d as it is possible to be. The analogy of the air in the lungs. Something so close to G-d has the capacity to experience G-d that much more. Think about it like this. The Infinite is already present everywhere. The more I can divest myself of the physical that clothes the Infinite, the more I will be able to experience that Infinite. The senses and mental capacities are still physical attributes.

I don't want to say one can't experience the Divine, although on a technical level this is true.. the Infinite can't be made an object of experience.. BUT, one can realize their true identity, or the identity of any being for that matter as being one with the infinite. And once you realize this, you realize that all of your experiences are one with the Infinite in some way. So yes, you do experience the Infinite in this manner.

How is that more than simple knowledge. Meaning, I already understand that essentially, my arm is nothing more than a manifestation of the Divine clothed in the physical. But where you to remove the layers of various degrees of physical and spiritual the root of everything is One. So now what?

Interesting, I like this. Well my question for you then, is how can I know that the Torah (the guidebook you are referring too) is the best one for my soul? How can I know that I should stick primarily to Torah rather than other "guidebooks?" What would you say to me, based off of our current conversation, to try and convince me that my soul really is green, and that Torah really is the path meant for me? This is a challenging task, but I will listen with an open mind.

That is a challenging task. And I would say probably beyond the scope this thread is allowed to have. I will say, just based on what we've spoken about until now, that as I have pointed out, if you research, you will find that all the Wisdom in the world can already be found within the works of the Torah. In my opinion, once you have experienced that for yourself, then it is no longer a question of believing the rest of it. Maybe I will open a thread in the Jewish DIR and challenge people to bring their Wisdom and see if I can find a parallel.

 

[Tumah]

A muzuzah, for one. Actually we have all sorts of reminders.

Does that qualify as a reminder though? The Law is that you must put one up even if you have no idea what it says or what it means.

Tzitzis are actually described as a reminder. However, there two you must wear them whether you know what they mean or not.

Is that true of these Buddhist images as well?

But a child eventually grows to make decisions on their own, and it's very possible they may go against what they were originally taught, and they might be more correct in the final analysis.

You're right, but first the child needs to learn about streets, cars and physics. Then the child can make an informed decision. The child shouldn't assume it already has the answers just because it reached a certain age. That is called teenage rebellion.

Then you have just inadvertently formed a "creed". Where are the lines to be drawn and who will draw them? Yes, we definitely should look at what the sages have believed and taught, but then we have the full right to think on our own.

Not inadvertently.
The lines are within the parameters of every succeeding generation. That is called the Tradition that dates back to Moses. Moses defined the structure, the 70 Elders learned it and passed it on to their students... to the Rabbis of the Mishnah who passed it to the Rabbis of the Talmud...
And that is why as I've said, you will never see a Talmudic Sage argue on a Mishnaic one. Each successive generation works with in the previous generations framework.

I would say that we have the freedom to think what we like. But what makes it a right?

 

[Avi1001]

I will say, just based on what we've spoken about until now, that as I have pointed out, if you research, you will find that all the Wisdom in the world can already be found within the works of the Torah. In my opinion, once you have experienced that for yourself, then it is no longer a question of believing the rest of it.

Can you see why the Buddhist posters are thinking about moving this thread from the Buddhist DIR ? You are here proclaiming the greatness of Torah, while the rest of us are here exchanging thoughts about the compatibility between Judaism and Buddhist philosophy. You are here prostheletyzing the Jewish posters to return to Judaism, when what we want is a broader understanding. You even have the gall to throw in a racial connection to the Y Chromosome Aaron project.

You have a great deal to learn about interfaith dialogue.