For the JuBu's...

[Tumah]

No. Some people withdrawing from and rejecting the culture and beliefs entirely due to corruption strongly connected to the class structure embedded within the culture. Buddha rejected the cultural practices he was born into. You expressed concern regarding JuBu's rejecting Jewish cultural practices. I'm suggesting that the Jewish caste system and cultural enforcement might be the source of dukkha some Jews are looking to Buddhism for relief from.

I did a small amount of research in what Buddha rejected and it seems to be two basic ideas: 1. He rejected the caste system because he felt it was built heavily in favor of those born to a higher caste and was corrupt. 2. He rejected religious doctrines which he felt did not advance a person down the path of truth.

I understand that you are suggesting that some Jews may likewise be turned off due to corruption among the Jewish authority or by Jewish doctrine.

In response to the former, the actual religious caste system is as I've described and their is no other caste system in place. In addition Judaism is decentralized, there is no central authority and by extension no one to be corrupt. If you don't like one Rabbi, you do to a different one or you become one yourself. There is nothing in place to force a person into submission to a given authority, or that gives an authority rights over another.

In response to the latter, this is the presumption that the creation of this thread is based on. I want to know what Jewish practices turn people away (and how well they understood it before they dismissed them) and conversely what Buddhist practices were enticing.

If I am still not understanding something here, please excuse my close-mindedness. I'm trying to understand the theoretical idea you are putting forth through a practical relevant example.

 

[crossfire]

I did a small amount of research in what Buddha rejected and it seems to be two basic ideas: 1. He rejected the caste system because he felt it was built heavily in favor of those born to a higher caste and was corrupt. 2. He rejected religious doctrines which he felt did not advance a person down the path of truth.

I understand that you are suggesting that some Jews may likewise be turned off due to corruption among the Jewish authority or by Jewish doctrine.

In response to the former, the actual religious caste system is as I've described and their is no other caste system in place. In addition Judaism is decentralized, there is no central authority and by extension no one to be corrupt. If you don't like one Rabbi, you do to a different one or you become one yourself. There is nothing in place to force a person into submission to a given authority, or that gives an authority rights over another.

Fair enough. Are any of the customs forced? I remember a question being raised regarding an example of this earlier in the thread.

In response to the latter, this is the presumption that the creation of this thread is based on. I want to know what Jewish practices turn people away (and how well they understood it before they dismissed them) and conversely what Buddhist practices were enticing.

I will try to help you in this regard by inquiring about important (to me) Buddhist practices that might have parallels in Judaism.

Anything like this in Judaism?

Kayagata-sati Sutta: Mindfulness Immersed in the Body

If I am still not understanding something here, please excuse my close-mindedness. I'm trying to understand the theoretical idea you are putting forth through a practical relevant example.

I was looking for bloodline religious caste, and possible corruption surrounding it. Searching out possibilities. There is still something bothering me in my subconscious mind regarding this. I'll contemplate for a while, and see if it becomes clearer.

 

[Tumah]

Fair enough. Are any of the customs forced? I remember a question being raised regarding an example of this earlier in the thread.

The customs, not so much. There are Commandments though. But there is no enforcer, besides the parents. So we are required to follow the Laws, but there is no one (well, maybe besides for a child's parents) to enforce them.

I will try to help you in this regard by inquiring about important (to me) Buddhist practices that might have parallels in Judaism.

Anything like this in Judaism?

Kayagata-sati Sutta: Mindfulness Immersed in the Body

The closest thing that I can think of is the trait of "Attachment". Based on the verse in Proverbs 3:6 "In all your ways, know Him", the pious would mentally engrave in front of their eyes the letters of the Tetragrammaton. The idea is that one should be in a state of constant awareness of G-d.

I was looking for bloodline religious caste, and possible corruption surrounding it. Searching out possibilities. There is still something bothering me in my subconscious mind regarding this. I'll contemplate for a while, and see if it becomes clearer.

I appreciate it.

 

[crossfire]

The customs, not so much. There are Commandments though. But there is no enforcer, besides the parents. So we are required to follow the Laws, but there is no one (well, maybe besides for a child's parents) to enforce them.

I know forced customs would make me feel like I was born into slavery.

The closest thing that I can think of is the trait of "Attachment". Based on the verse in Proverbs 3:6 "In all your ways, know Him", the pious would mentally engrave in front of their eyes the letters of the Tetragrammaton. The idea is that one should be in a state of constant awareness of G-d.

OK, so nothing like this important Buddhist practice to be found within Judaism. There's one thing that might draw a Jew to Buddhism.

 

[Avi1001]

I was looking for bloodline religious caste, and possible corruption surrounding it. Searching out possibilities. There is still something bothering me in my subconscious mind regarding this. I'll contemplate for a while, and see if it becomes clearer.

The Rabbinic leadership works with the covenental community leadership to control the community. This results in some members of the community rebelling or leaving. Hence, the formation of a large reform community which rejects traditional Judaism. And this movement is the fastest growing.

The connection to bloodline caste is less clear, but it was referred to earlier as the chromosome Y Aaron project. I have seen it called other names. I call it racism.

 

[crossfire]

One more important Buddhist practice: Is there anything like jhana work within Judaism? (pardon the wiki article)

Dhy

I'll start asking about contemplative practices and the Four Seals later.

 

[crossfire]

The Rabbinic leadership works with the covenental community leadership to control the community. This results in some members of the community rebelling or leaving. Hence, the formation of a large reform community which rejects traditional Judaism. And this movement is the fastest growing.

OK, but they are still Jews, no? They aren't going to a "foreign" cultural practice, correct?

 

[Avi1001]

One more important Buddhist practice: Is there anything like jhana work within Judaism? (pardon the wiki article)

Dhy

I'll start asking about contemplative practices and the Four Seals later.

I believe the closest connection in Judaism is Kabbalah. However, it is not easily accessed. I have been told to learn Hebrew and Aramaic before attempting to learn Kabbalah. The most encouraging development in this respect is the work by Rav Berg, which has been publicized by Madonna's participation. It is a popularization of Kabbalah. The Rabbinic leadership hate it.

 

[Avi1001]

OK, but they are still Jews, no? They aren't going to a "foreign" cultural practice, correct?

Yes, they are still Jews, but all sorts of cultural practices are being explored by members of the covenental community.

I think the overarching questions which relate both groups are, you might ask: what is a Buddhist ? And we might ask: what is a Jew ?

I think the answers to these questions are changing every day.

 

[crossfire]

Yes, they are still Jews, but all sorts of cultural practices are being explored by members of the covenental community.

I think the overarching questions which relate both groups are, you might ask: what is a Buddhist ? And we might ask: what is a Jew ?

I think the answers to these questions are changing every day.

What is a Buddhist? That's easy enough to answer.

The Four Dharma Seals -- The Four Dharma Seals Define Buddhism

Basic Buddhism is not culturally based, by any means. In fact, one of the goals of Buddhism is to liberate yourself from clinging to rights and rituals, including cultural ones. The first step in Buddhism, that of Stream Entrant occurs when you have eradicated the first three fetters of the 10 fetters of becoming:

• belief in a self
• doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings--you have tested them yourself
• attachment to rites and rituals
• sensual desire
• ill will
• lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth
• lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm
• conceit
• restlessness
• ignorance

 

[crossfire]

I believe the closest connection in Judaism is Kabbalah. However, it is not easily accessed. I have been told to learn Hebrew and Aramaic before attempting to learn Kabbalah. The most encouraging development in this respect is the work by Rav Berg, which has been publicized by Madonna's participation. It is a popularization of Kabbalah. The Rabbinic leadership hate it.

The jhanas are much more accessible, and much more subtle, than the sephirot of Kabbalah.

 

[Tumah]

I know forced customs would make me feel like I was born into slavery.

Would you feel like a slave, if you knew that every time you didn't eat a ham sandwich, someone handed you a million dollars? I see no difference.

OK, so nothing like this important Buddhist practice to be found within Judaism. There's one thing that might draw a Jew to Buddhism.

I don't expect there to be the exact same practice. Judaism is not concerned with experiencing the self, it is concerned with experiencing the Divine. The form of the practice might be similar, but the goal is going to be completely different.

The practice you mentioned deal with constant awareness of the self.
The parallel in Judaism is the constant awareness of the Divine.

The Rabbinic leadership works with the covenental community leadership to control the community. This results in some members of the community rebelling or leaving. Hence, the formation of a large reform community which rejects traditional Judaism. And this movement is the fastest growing.

The connection to bloodline caste is less clear, but it was referred to earlier as the chromosome Y Aaron project. I have seen it called other names. I call it racism.

What community leadership?

How can there be racism against members of one's own race?

One more important Buddhist practice: Is there anything like jhana work within Judaism? (pardon the wiki article)

Dhy

I'll start asking about contemplative practices and the Four Seals later.

As I said earlier, the goal in Judaism is not to experience the self, but to experience the Divine and so all meditative practices are oriented towards that goal.

Kavanah - directed consciousness, for the lay-man it refers to concentrating on what one is saying/doing. But the Kabbalists say that true kavanah begins with "hispashtus hagashmiyus" or "disrobing of the physical." From there one uses various "kavanot", depending on the service or goal.

Hisbonenus - contemplation, refers to meditating on an object or idea. This practice has various applications from refining one's character to entering into communion with a "Maggid" or "one who tells". That refers to certain Divine elements that teach a person about itself.

Hisbodedus - refers to self-isolation, whether internally or externally. My understanding is that this is the practice used to release the soul from body to enter the various Divine dimensions.

As you can see, the Jewish practices are directed towards experiencing the Divine or Divine worship. Judaism is not concerned with experiencing the self outside besides for as a medium towards perfecting the self in preparation for experiencing the Divine. For example, ancient Jewish Meditative schools required that one already be in complete control of the emotion in order to enroll. Control of the emotion was not the goal, but the means.

What is a Buddhist? That's easy enough to answer.

The Four Dharma Seals -- The Four Dharma Seals Define Buddhism

Basic Buddhism is not culturally based, by any means. In fact, one of the goals of Buddhism is to liberate yourself from clinging to rights and rituals, including cultural ones. The first step in Buddhism, that of Stream Entrant occurs when you have eradicated the first three fetters of the 10 fetters of becoming:

• belief in a self
• doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings--you have tested them yourself
• attachment to rites and rituals
• sensual desire
• ill will
• lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth
• lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm
• conceit
• restlessness
• ignorance

As mentioned before, the goal in Judaism is the experience of the Divine. Part of the way this is accomplished is through freeing oneself of one's animal nature. One who has done that is called a "free man" in Jewish literature. This is accomplished through the study of Mussar. Mussar is the study of the self- and one's character traits with the goal of perfecting them. Here is an example of the chapters in a work called "Ways of the Righteous"

• The Gate of Haughtiness
• The Gate of Humility
• The Gate of Shame
• The Gate of Impudence
• The Gate of Love
• The Gate of Hate
• The Gate of Mercy
• The Gate of Cruelty
• The Gate of Happiness
• The Gate of Worry
• The Gate of Regret
• The Gate of Anger
• The Gate of Will
• The Gate of Jealousy
• The Gate of Promptness
• The Gate of Laziness
• The Gate of Generosity
• The Gate of Stinginess
• The Gate of Remembrance
• The Gate of Forgetfulness
• The Gate of Quietness
• The Gate of Falseness
• The Gate of Truth
• The Gate of Flattery
• The Gate of Evil Speech
• The Gate of Repentance
• The Gate of Torah
• The Gate of Fear of Heaven

 

[Tumah]

First of all, sorry for the wall of text in the post above. I didn't realize how many things I crammed together into one post.

The jhanas are much more accessible, and much more subtle, than the sephirot of Kabbalah.

Accessibility is not always appropriate. The Talmud relate that four people entered the Orchard (that is a very high spiritual dimension). Because they entered into a place that they were not spiritually ready for yet, one died, one went insane and one became an apostate. Only one was allowed to exit in peace because he merited Divine protection.

To me, the Talmud is teaching that just because one can gain access to something, doesn't mean that one should access it.

 

[crossfire]

First of all, sorry for the wall of text in the post above. I didn't realize how many things I crammed together into one post.



Accessibility is not always appropriate. The Talmud relate that four people entered the Orchard (that is a very high spiritual dimension). Because they entered into a place that they were not spiritually ready for yet, one died, one went insane and one became an apostate. Only one was allowed to exit in peace because he merited Divine protection.

To me, the Talmud is teaching that just because one can gain access to something, doesn't mean that one should access it.

Agreed.

 

[Tumah]

Agreed.

Just to clarify I didn't mean that as an attack on Buddhism. I meant that although Jewish Kabballah is less accessible than the Eastern mystics, it is done purposely.

 

[Avi1001]

The jhanas are much more accessible, and much more subtle, than the sephirot of Kabbalah.

Accessability is important in many aspects of life. It is changing our ways of learning and relating to one another. Closed and privileged systems of the past will have to open or they will be bypassed.

I welcome Rav Berg's opening of Kabbalah. If aspects of it are being taught incorrectly, we look forward to improvements in dissemination.

I am not a big fan of secret knowledge. Real and useful knowledge is hard enough to communicate accurately, even when we are trying to. I prefer to teach and learn with openness and honesty.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I'm suggesting that the Jewish caste system and cultural enforcement might be the source of dukkha some Jews are looking to Buddhism for relief from.

If Buddhism truly provides relief from duHkha, then why do so many bauddha bhikShu-s suffer from depression? Please be realistic and avoid over-generalization. Saying that my religion provides better answers for problems than yours (as you seem to be doing) is probably not a sufficient explanation for the question posed by the OP.

 

[Avi1001]

If Buddhism truly provides relief from duHkha, then why do so many bauddha bhikShu-s suffer from depression? Please be realistic and avoid over-generalization. Saying that my religion provides better answers for problems that yours (as you seem to be doing) is probably not a sufficient explanation for the question posed by the OP.

Interesting observation. You are right, we need to deal with specifics.

What do you think of this operational hypothesis: practice of meditation and mysticism might bring reduced stress to ones life. Jewish mysticism, known as Kabbalah, which includes meditation, has been held secret for thousands of years. Buddhism might offer increased accessibility to these forms of spirituality.

Do you agree ? Disagree ? Why ?

 

[crossfire]

Just to clarify I didn't mean that as an attack on Buddhism. I meant that although Jewish Kabballah is less accessible than the Eastern mystics, it is done purposely.

Understood, and I agree with you. They don't call it "crown of thorns" for nothing. Sephirot is not exclusive to Judaism-other indigenous cultures have their own traditions regarding it. (Check out the native Hawaiians, for one example.)

 

[crossfire]

Accessability is important in many aspects of life. It is changing our ways of learning and relating to one another. Closed and privileged systems of the past will have to open or they will be bypassed.

I welcome Rav Berg's opening of Kabbalah. If aspects of it are being taught incorrectly, we look forward to improvements in dissemination.

I am not a big fan of secret knowledge. Real and useful knowledge is hard enough to communicate accurately, even when we are trying to. I prefer to teach and learn with openness and honesty.

There is still a need for "Mr Yuck!" stickers for those who can't discern medicine from poison, especially if it is the same thing.