For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...

[challupa]

As some others have pointed out in other threads it is difficult to see the light without the darkness in juxtaposition. How will a person see his own darkness if there is not an example of darkness and light to choose from?

In a sense it is justifiable for God to allow the devil some influence over those who belong to him.

I believe what you refer to is merely duality of physical existence. Neither in and of itself is evil or good, it just is.

 

[HoldemDB9]

No. Not every Christian is seeking for truth (especially if they think they already have it). I was a Christian by upbringing and church attendance before I was saved. I was not seeking the truth in the Word of God until one day I was challenged by another Christian who I felt did not have the truth. It was then that I realized that I didn't know the Bible well enough to know the truth. It did not take me long to find it (Three chapters) and it led to my salvation.

You said that God will speak the truth to those who seek it, and then here you admit that there are non-Christians who seek the truth more than some Christians. So why isn't God speaking the truth to all of those non-Christians who are seeking?

There are Muslims who are seeking for truth more than many Christians, they are Muslim because they are influenced by their family and by their society, just the same as Christians. Isn't it unfair that God gives some a much better chance to achieve salvation?

His Word is in the Bible.

I didn't ask which book you believed, I asked how you know for sure that you are right. But you don't, therefore you are presuming.

 

[Draka]

The Truth is in the Bible. God put it there so that you could come to it. If it turned into a fairy tale for you, there is some other agent at work. You say you have intelligence but I have intelligence also and figured out that it is the Truth. However before I came to an intellectual understanding of the Bible I had a mystical acceptance of it. I believe the Word harmonized with what I had learned in past lives. I wonder if you are aware that your understanding is colored by outside influences. It would appear not.

The other agents at work, the "outside" influences, affecting my not accepting the bible as the truth are intelligence (which I don't believe you have), wisdom, knowledge, common sense...and oh...the real Divine.

There is no such thing. The path you are on is the path back to Hell and torment.

Well that just shows your complete ignorance.

I could have sworn you had a trident aimed at my derriere!

That's my athame, just one point, but just as sharp.

 

[Draka]

I just wanted to hit on this again. If Satan doesn't have the power to come out of hell then how is he supposedly whispering any lies in any ears for anyone to buy into anyway? If he's locked up tight in hell, as per god, then how is he corrupting anyone? I mean really, if god didn't WANT satan to be able to influence people then one would think, as all-powerful as god is supposed to be, that he could keep satan locked away so tight that he couldn't do anything to anyone. The fact that you believe that satan has control over people and leads them away from god also means that you must not believe your god either is capable of controlling satan, in which case he is NOT all-powerful OR your god WANTS satan to lead people away from him. Now if that is the case then WHY? To play some game? To "test" people for fun? To see if certain people are weak and shouldn't be allowed in his little country club? Why would he need to "test" anyone if he "knows all"? Wouldn't he already know everything about a person's soul without playing games with satan over it? Don't you see how stupid this all is?

If satan is allowed to do anything to anyone either god CAN'T control him or god WANTS satan to mess with people. So which is it? Is your god NOT all powerful or is he into playing SADISTIC games with humans? Do tell.

Hey Muffled, I see you didn't even try to respond to this post of mine. If you ever get the gumption up to respond to such points then go here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/78347-flaw-blaming-satan.html

 

[McBell]

If that is the case then all of the so called cruel acts of God that were listed actually lead to goodness.

Possibly.
However, one must wonder why an all knowing, all good, all powerful deity would resort to such tactics that go against his alleged nature.

I know the facts. You are here. You have said it. However you are not an authority on the subject, so your words are meaningless.

ROTFLMAO
And what pray tell makes you an authority?

You are about as clueless as the first person who used the word "sadistic." Perhaps you would like to point out the nonsense and say how you think it is sadistic that is if you can make arguments and not just spout inanities.

Kettle, meet pot.
The nonsense I refer to is every one of your posts in this thread.

He is the only one we have. Like it or lump it.

He may be the only one YOU have, but there are several other deities out there, like or lump it.

I suppose you would rather have the devil as your God, someone who whispers all the sweet lies that you want to hear.

Actually, your lies are not sweet, nor are they anything I want to hear.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

First answer me this question: Can goodness be achieved by practicing evil?

God thinks so apparently,

Exod. 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deut. 2:25 This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.
Deut. 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Duet. 7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.
Deut. 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

 

[Muffled]

You said that God will speak the truth to those who seek it, and then here you admit that there are non-Christians who seek the truth more than some Christians. So why isn't God speaking the truth to all of those non-Christians who are seeking?

There are Muslims who are seeking for truth more than many Christians, they are Muslim because they are influenced by their family and by their society, just the same as Christians. Isn't it unfair that God gives some a much better chance to achieve salvation?

I didn't ask which book you believed, I asked how you know for sure that you are right. But you don't, therefore you are presuming.

Many seek truth but few seek it from God.

This is debatable. Cwertainly Muslims give the appearance of seeking truth because they appear more religious but the two things are no synonymnous, Muslims reject the truth by rejecting the Bible as it is written.

The Qu'ran tells Muslims that Jesus was given the Gospel but it doesn't tell them what the Gospel is. Christians have been commanded to preach the Gospel, so you would think Muslims would want to hear it but they don't.

The Holy Spirit tells me that the Bible is right. When I was a teenager I didn't believe that babies were sinners. Then I had children and my whole perspective changed. Back then I presumed from my limited experience, now I understand from the wisdom of God.

 

[Muffled]

The other agents at work, the "outside" influences, affecting my not accepting the bible as the truth are intelligence (which I don't believe you have), wisdom, knowledge, common sense...and oh...the real Divine.

Well that just shows your complete ignorance.

That's my athame, just one point, but just as sharp.

How convenient. You claim that you have the truth by claiming that you are more intelligent without having to prove a thing. I never claimed that you didn't have the truth from lack of intelligence but that an outside force influences your thinking. The end result is that you can be shown the truth of the BIble but the truth will not neccessarily alter your thinking because those outside influences are still at work in you.

Common sense says that the sun travels around the earth because you can see it rise and set. It took a more intelligent approach to see that the earth rotates on an axis.

So you have this fairy tale god that makes everything all right for you when it isn't. Gee whiz I could almost want an ego messaging god for myself but I know from experience that fantacies will not help me deal with reality.

I don't know everything ( although my wife seems to think that I think so) and I don't ignore rational explanations. I just know who holds all the aces. So show your hand and read em and weep as the saying goes in poker.

You must be referring to your tongue not your wit, lol.

 

[Muffled]

Possibly.
However, one must wonder why an all knowing, all good, all powerful deity would resort to such tactics that go against his alleged nature.


ROTFLMAO
And what pray tell makes you an authority?


Kettle, meet pot.
The nonsense I refer to is every one of your posts in this thread.

He may be the only one YOU have, but there are several other deities out there, like or lump it.

Actually, your lies are not sweet, nor are they anything I want to hear.

Equivocating doesn't help a bit. Either God is good for performing those acts or He is not. Don't hang on the fence. Decide which is so.

I had my church elders ask me if I thought I was an authority. I told them, no. God is the authority. They preferred to accept their church leaders as the authority instead of God. That sounds an awful lot like Roman Catholicism. Along comes Calvin and Sola Scriptura which only meant that Calvin thought he was the authority.

OK, you answered the first part by stating your opinion. Now answer the second part with evidence.

Actually there have been many contests between the One True God and other gods in the Bible and they all had their heads handed to them.

I speak the Truth and the Truth hurts. The Truth hurts for a short time but lies can hurt you in the end. The truth is that alcohol is fun and exciting to imbibe and everything seems good at the beginning. At the end the person finds himself in jail for vehicular homicide or assault or in bed with a strange woman that he wouldn't have anything to do with sober. Given enough liquor over enough time and the liver decays and the person dies.

 

[Muffled]

God thinks so apparently,

Exod. 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deut. 2:25 This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.
Deut. 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Duet. 7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.
Deut. 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

I wasn't asking God, I was asking you. Are you saying that you agree with what you think God thinks?

 

[McBell]

Equivocating doesn't help a bit. Either God is good for performing those acts or He is not. Don't hang on the fence. Decide which is so.

I had my church elders ask me if I thought I was an authority. I told them, no. God is the authority. They preferred to accept their church leaders as the authority instead of God. That sounds an awful lot like Roman Catholicism. Along comes Calvin and Sola Scriptura which only meant that Calvin thought he was the authority.

OK, you answered the first part by stating your opinion. Now answer the second part with evidence.

Actually there have been many contests between the One True God and other gods in the Bible and they all had their heads handed to them.

I speak the Truth and the Truth hurts. The Truth hurts for a short time but lies can hurt you in the end. The truth is that alcohol is fun and exciting to imbibe and everything seems good at the beginning. At the end the person finds himself in jail for vehicular homicide or assault or in bed with a strange woman that he wouldn't have anything to do with sober. Given enough liquor over enough time and the liver decays and the person dies.

There are none so blind as those who think they already have all the answers.


Religious "truth" is subjective.
I do not subscribe to your religion.
Therefore your deities rules, laws, hoops, conditions, etc. do not apply to me.

You are free to think otherwise all you like.
You are free to think whatever you like about your particular twist on the "truth".

Fact is, your deity has no power, no control, no authority, etc. over me.
If you have to believe that he/she does, feel free.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I wasn't asking God, I was asking you. Are you saying that you agree with what you think God thinks?

Of course not. The God of the Old Testament, by his own admission, (as written by men), is cruel, jealous, vindictive, and manipulative.

Not quality traits.

 

[Draka]

How convenient. You claim that you have the truth by claiming that you are more intelligent without having to prove a thing. I never claimed that you didn't have the truth from lack of intelligence but that an outside force influences your thinking. The end result is that you can be shown the truth of the BIble but the truth will not neccessarily alter your thinking because those outside influences are still at work in you.

You questioned my intelligence, I'll question yours. Don't play victim when you aren't one. And there is no truth to the bible. It is a book of stories. Some have moral messages and other are just to scare into obedience. And yes, I won't have my thinking altered because of the outside influences that prevent me from being duped as you have.

Common sense says that the sun travels around the earth because you can see it rise and set. It took a more intelligent approach to see that the earth rotates on an axis.

Common sense would also dictate that a god which has all kinds of horrific, cruel and sadistic vile actions attributed to it is not "good" by any definition. An intelligent approach to that information would be a denial of that god being "good" in any way shape or form. See, two qualites you seem to lack right there.

So you have this fairy tale god that makes everything all right for you when it isn't. Gee whiz I could almost want an ego messaging god for myself but I know from experience that fantacies will not help me deal with reality.

As opposed to your fairy tale god that whips and burns his creation for not bowing down and cowering appropriately before him?

I don't know everything ( although my wife seems to think that I think so) and I don't ignore rational explanations. I just know who holds all the aces. So show your hand and read em and weep as the saying goes in poker.

Royal Flush baby.

You must be referring to your tongue not your wit, lol.

My tongue and my wit are both sharp, but that has nothing to do with me claiming to be holding an athame rather than the trident you joked about. Follow a conversation for once, will you? :sarcastic

 

[Muffled]

Of course not. The God of the Old Testament, by his own admission, (as written by men), is cruel, jealous, vindictive, and manipulative.

Not quality traits.

I would be inclined to agree that God acts that way sometimes but as often is the case, it is directed at those who practice evil.

I appreciate them because I hate evil. However your view seems somewhat skewed if you leave out His more admirable traits.

 

[challupa]

I would be inclined to agree that God acts that way sometimes but as often is the case, it is directed at those who practice evil.

I appreciate them because I hate evil. However your view seems somewhat skewed if you leave out His more admirable traits.

So what do you see as being his admirable traits? Also, define evil if you will because that seems to change from one age to the next and from one culture to the next.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I would be inclined to agree that God acts that way sometimes but as often is the case, it is directed at those who practice evil.

I appreciate them because I hate evil. However your view seems somewhat skewed if you leave out His more admirable traits.

You appreciate a being that is cruel, jealous, vindictive, and manipulative?
And yes, my view is skewed. I would expect perfection, not flaws in an all powerful being.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Many seek truth but few seek it from God.

So there is no such thing as a non-Christian who is seeking truth from God? REALLY???!!!!

This is debatable. Cwertainly Muslims give the appearance of seeking truth because they appear more religious but the two things are no synonymnous, Muslims reject the truth by rejecting the Bible as it is written.

No it's not debatable. I did not say that all Muslims are seeking for truth more than all Christians, I said that some Muslims are seeking more than some Christians. If you think that every Christian on the planet is seeking/did seek for truth harder than every single Muslim then I would think you were mentally ill in some way. So, do you agree that there are Muslims who are trying harder to find truth than some Christians?

The Qu'ran tells Muslims that Jesus was given the Gospel but it doesn't tell them what the Gospel is. Christians have been commanded to preach the Gospel, so you would think Muslims would want to hear it but they don't

They don't want to hear it because just like you, they believe that they are right. Oh, and please answer the question: Isn't it unfair that God gives some a much better chance to achieve salvation?

The Holy Spirit tells me that the Bible is right. When I was a teenager I didn't believe that babies were sinners. Then I had children and my whole perspective changed. Back then I presumed from my limited experience, now I understand from the wisdom of God.

Wrong again. You do not know for sure that the holy spirit is talking to you, you do not know for sure that Christianity is true. You are presuming that the holy spirit is talking to you and you are presuming that Christianity is true. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with not knowing for sure, that is why religious people have FAITH. They have FAITH because they don't know for sure. Weird isn't it, how you think you've so got it right, but if you were simply born in Saudi Arabia you would be a Muslim, just as sure that you are right and if you were born in India you would be a Hindu, just as sure that Hinduism is true.

Since not all get an equal chance in this life to become Christian I only see two options: Either your God is unjust or he lets non-Christians into heaven. Which is it? Or is there a 3rd option?

 

[MidnightSun]

Its obvious that not all get an equal chance to become a Christian. For example, a child born in India (where 80% of the population is Hindu) does not have the same chance of becoming Christian as a child born in the USA (where I think 70%+ are Christian?).

I don't know why, but for some reason many Christians seem to think that you will be held accountable for not following, once you have simply "heard" of the Bible. Hearing of the Bible does not make everything all equal.

Obviously this is not at all fair. So does God either let non-Christians into heaven or does he give some a MUCH better chance than others? I don't see any other way around it .

I believe if a person wants to repent when they die that they go to heaven and accept Jesus Christ as their saviour. Non Christians aswell...
It's not fair that some people never heard of Christianity so I think they can come to Heaven too:angel2:

 

[Draka]

I would be inclined to agree that God acts that way sometimes but as often is the case, it is directed at those who practice evil.

Yeah, those darn awful evil babies needed to be eradicated before they became awful evil adults. So much better to kill them when they're young huh? They put up less of a fight. And of course, what better way to punish an evil adult than to kill their beloved baby. So what if the baby didn't deserve it. Sins of the father and all...right? :sarcastic

 

[Muffled]

You appreciate a being that is cruel, jealous, vindictive, and manipulative?
And yes, my view is skewed. I would expect perfection, not flaws in an all powerful being.

Yes I do appreciate those traits. You would like to have a God that repesents your views?

Let us view this. A god that doesn't kill off evil people would lead to a world where evil holds sway. It would be a world where women are raped, people are killed and tortured for fun and profit, where women are kidnapped into slavery as prostitutes, and where an honest man is a dead man.

That is what Heaven is like. There are no evil people to be cruel to there; there are no other gods to be jealous of there; there is no need to manipulate because there is nothing that needs to be changed there; and all who are there are vindicated so there is no need for judgement there.

So here is God's flaw that He shows mercy to the wicked letting them out of hell for a time so that they may have an opportunity to repent. The wicked get punished for the evil they do but it certainly can't be as bad as being in hell.

So what then of good people. Do they have to endure evil forever or spend all their time in Heaven out of body. NO. Good people get to have a time on earth without evil but for that to happen evil people have to be bound in hell.