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For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, I already know that you believe whatever Baha'u'llah says even when it contradicts what the Bible says.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 54-67
No it does not contradict what the Bible says because the Comforter is the Holy Spirit that was sent to Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. That is why Baha'u'llah is called the Comforter.
Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

So Peter was explaining on Pentecost that the disciples speaking in the languages of all those there, was what had been promised by God through Joel.

Yes as the Bible tells us, the last days began with Jesus
Heb 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.
Jesus was explaining to the disciples what had been promised by the prophet Joel. Acts 2:17-21 was given by Joel as a prophecy for when Christ would return, on the last day of the last days.

The last day refers to the future—the culminating day of God’s final salvation and wrath being revealed for all to see (see 1 Thess. 5:1–11). We are told in Scripture that though we know this day is coming, we cannot know the day or the hour of the last day itself (cf. Matt. 24:36).​
The last days refers to the period of time we are now in—between Christ’s death/resurrection/ascension and his second appearing or return. This is also called “the last time/s” (Jude 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:20) or “the last hour” (1 John 2:18) or “the end of the ages” (1 Cor. 10:11).​
It is helpful to think of the Old Testament as the age of promise, where God promised his people a Messiah who would establish and rule over his Kingdom.​
With the advent of Jesus as the Christ, or the Messiah, we have the age of fulfillment. The promises of God are being fulfilled in these last days, even if they will not being ultimately or finally consummated or fulfilled until the last day.​

With the coming of Baha'u'llah we have the age of fulfillment. The promises of God have all been fulfilled.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We know that the last day was when Christ was supposed to return, because the prophecy given by Joel matches up with other prophecies about Christ's return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The established meaning is what it says. IOW the Comforter is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit taught the disciples and helped them remember what Jesus had told them. That is what it says.
No, that is not the established meaning, it is the meaning YOU have assigned.

The Bible says that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
Nowhere does the Bible say that the Holy Spirit taught the disciples and helped them remember what Jesus had told them.
That is what YOU say.


The meaning I assign is that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit that was sent from the Father to Baha'u'llah, and after that the Holy Spirit taught Baha'u'llah all things and brought to remembrance what Jesus had said.
Make up your mind. You said that the Holy Spirit did teach the OT prophets (Isaiah etc) and if He can do that then He can remind them of what Jesus said. He still does that in believers these days.
I really do not know what happened in the Old Testament. I believe that God inspired the OT prophets through the Holy Spirit.
Minor prophets such as Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel were followers and promulgators of the major Prophets such as Moses.

"Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God."

The Three Kinds of Prophets
I prefer Jesus, the Christ over someone who denies the Bible, the Word of God, and who claims to be the return of Christ by changing the plain meaning of the Bible............... as I have just pointed out with John 14:26.
You said:
The Comforter is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit taught the disciples and helped them remember what Jesus had told them. That is what it says.

NO, the Bible does not say that the Holy Spirit taught the disciples and helped them remember what Jesus had told them. You said that.

I did not change the plain meaning of John 14:26. I just interpreted the verse differently than you did.

The Comforter is the Holy Spirit who taught Baha'u'llah all things and brought to remembrance what Jesus had said.
 
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Eli G

Well-Known Member
No it does not contradict what the Bible says because the Comforter is the Holy Spirit that was sent to Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. That is why Baha'u'llah is called the Comforter.

...
There is not any proof of that. It is an idea that exists only in your (bahais') imagination ... and the only thing you do here is preaching your bahais beliefs without any proof at all.
You should stop preaching and start showing real history events that can demonstrate anything you say here.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There is not any proof of that. It is an idea that exists only in your (bahais') imagination ... and the only thing you do here is preaching your bahais beliefs without any proof at all.
Proof? There is certainly no proof that anyone has the correct interpretation of John 14:26 and that my interpretation is incorrect.
It is ALL just a matter of personal opinion what the verse means.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

How does the disembodied Holy Spirit teach all things, and bring all things to remembrance, whatsoever Jesus said?
It doesn't. The reason all of the references to the Comforter and the Spirit of truth say he, is because they are referring to a man who has the Holy Spirit guiding and teaching them.

The Holy Spirit is not a person, the Holy Spirit is a spirit that is sent by God to the Messengers of God.
The Holy Spirit works through a person who is a Messenger of God. Jesus was such a person. It worked through Jesus and then later it worked through Baha'u'llah, who was a Messenger of God.

Jesus was a Comforter because Jesus brought the Holy Spirit which God sent to Him.
Jesus said He would send another Comforter, which was the Holy Spirit that God sent to Baha'u'llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
You should stop preaching and start showing real history events that can demonstrate anything you say here.
There is real history and events surrounding the mission of Baha'u'llah and it is contemporary history which was chronicled by people who knew Baha'u'llah. We have no such history for the mission of Jesus.

That said, how do you think the historical events would demonstrate the claims of Baha'u'llah to be the Comforter?
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Psss. Using the Bible to preach bahais beliefs? Ridiculous.
Bahais don't even believe in angels... spirit persons that the Bible mentions a lot.

I am putting you on ignore, since I notice that you appear after my posts only to provoke me with your bahai preaching, to hipocritically complain later about my answers accusing me of preaching, which it is you the one who does that without even presenting a logical argumentation or facts.

Good bye.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Psss. Using the Bible to preach bahais beliefs? Ridiculous.
I did not post to you. I was having an ongoing conversation with @Brian2. I was not preaching.
I am not going to present Christian beliefs because I am not a Christian.
Bahais don't even believe in angels... spirit persons that the Bible mentions a lot.
Baha'is definitely believe in angels.

“And now, concerning His words: “And He shall send His angels….” By “angels” is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have 79 consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim. That holy man, Ṣádiq, 37 in his eulogy of the Cherubim, saith: “There stand a company of our fellow-Shí’ihs behind the Throne.” Divers and manifold are the interpretations of the words “behind the Throne.” In one sense, they indicate that no true Shí’ihs exist. Even as he hath said in another passage: “A true believer is likened unto the philosopher’s stone.” Addressing subsequently his listener, he saith: “Hast thou ever seen the philosopher’s stone?” Reflect, how this symbolic language, more eloquent than any speech, however direct, testifieth to the non-existence of a true believer. Such is the testimony of Ṣádiq. And now consider, how unfair and numerous are those who, although they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of belief, have condemned as infidels those by whose word belief itself is recognized and established.

And now, inasmuch as these holy beings have sanctified themselves from every human limitation, have become endowed with the attributes of the spiritual, and have been adorned with the noble traits of the blessed, they therefore have been designated as “angels.” Such is the meaning of these verses, every word of which hath been expounded by the aid of the most lucid texts, the most convincing arguments, and the best established evidences.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 78-80
I am putting you on ignore, since I notice that you appear after my posts only to provoke me with your bahai preaching, to hipocritically complain later about my answers accusing me of preaching, which it is you the one who does that without even presenting a logical argumentation or facts.

Good bye.
I did not complain about your answers or accuse you of preaching.
It is you who is complaining about my answers and accusing me of preaching.
I asked you a couple of questions. I guess you could not answer them.

I just politely answered your post with what I believe.
That's what people do on a religious forum. If you don't like people who disagree with you you should not be in a debate forum.

I would like to see some logical argumentation or facts for Christian beliefs. Hell will freeze over before those can ever be presented.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I do not believe the Spirit of God can actually inhabit a body, as Christians believe (indwelt Holy Spirit).
The Holy Spirit can have a direct connection to the body through the instrumentality of the soul, but that is not the same thing as 'living inside' the body.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT
I believe Jesus made it plain that the Spirit of God would dwell in the body of believers in John 14.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe Jesus made it plain that the Spirit of God would dwell in the body of believers in John 14.
I believe Jesus (a) was that spirit of God that dwelled in the body of believers as he said in other place "I am the light of the world so long as I'm in this world". When he left, it was Elijah (a) who is proven to come back but be hidden by proof that John (a) the Baptist, was killed, and that Jesus (a) was rejected, and so it would not make sense Elijah (a) to be public but just witnessed by the true followers.

Mohammad (s) was also this spirit of God's command and light by God guides whoever he wishes, then Ali (a)... so on so forth, and today it's Imam Mahdi (a) who is hidden for similar reasons that Elijah (a) was hidden as the leader and light of the world.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe Jesus made it plain that the Spirit of God would dwell in the body of believers in John 14.
John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I do not believe that the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of believers.
I believe it was Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit to all of humanity.
Both Jesus and Baha'u'llah were called Comforters because they brought the Holy Spirit.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I don't know what you are talking about, BUT

congratulations! God never walked our planet! Nice! Bravo!
Micah 1:3 For behold YHWH cometh forth out of his place and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Micah 1:5 ... and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Yhwh is Gods name in the Old Testament. Some people think Jesus is the same....even though it clearly states Jesus is his son.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, unto us a son is given ... and he will be called Mighty God, Everlasting Father,

He was both Father and Son. The Father is the eternal Spirit dwelling in the body. The Son is the body the Father made to dwell in and sacrifice for sin.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
While the chapter is about wisdom it is also attributed to Jesus.
If you dont agree thats fine. But how do you explain Col :15-16?

" He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him."
He is the image (the body) of the invisible God. God is a Spirit. John 4:24

Once God took on a body then he could be seen. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. John 14:9

Colossians 2:9 For in Messiah all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I do see the difference. But the context only means what you are implying if you ignore much of the scriptures. The bible has a clear teaching the Jesus is Gods Son, which you agree. But then you turn around and say he is God too. Its completely illogical and not based on the bible as a whole.

They accused Jesus of exactly what you are claiming- that he is in any way equal to God. Jesus clearly showed that they pulled what he taught out of context.....

"I and the Father are one.” Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself God.”.....‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? John 10: 30-36

Listen to Jesus not man.

Claiming the trinity is what the early church believed is a half-truth. Jesus never taught it. The apostles never taught it. It was only AFTER they were gone that the trinity popped up, which the Christians were clearly warned about such things.....

"I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." Acts 20:29-30

"However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words. But their judgment, decided long ago, is not moving slowly, and their destruction is not sleeping." 2 Peter 2:1-3

You can research the origin of the trinity. Its well documented that it came about centuries after the scriptures were written.
The Spirit was God. The body the Spirit was dwelling in was the Son. Not two different persons in the Godhead - but flesh and Spirit. (You could say God wrapped himself in flesh. And then shed that flesh for our sins.)
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe Jesus (a) was that spirit of God that dwelled in the body of believers as he said in other place "I am the light of the world so long as I'm in this world". When he left, it was Elijah (a) who is proven to come back but be hidden by proof that John (a) the Baptist, was killed, and that Jesus (a) was rejected, and so it would not make sense Elijah (a) to be public but just witnessed by the true followers.

Mohammad (s) was also this spirit of God's command and light by God guides whoever he wishes, then Ali (a)... so on so forth, and today it's Imam Mahdi (a) who is hidden for similar reasons that Elijah (a) was hidden as the leader and light of the world.
I believe that is a quote out of context.

I fail to see any truth in this.

I do not believe "also" applies.

I believe Mohammed had a spirit faithful to God but I would not say he is the embodiment of God's Spirit as Jesus is.

I don't see the Mahdi as a good thing. Most likely he will be the anti-Christ and embodiment of the devil.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I do not believe that the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of believers.
I believe it was Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit to all of humanity.
Both Jesus and Baha'u'llah were called Comforters because they brought the Holy Spirit.
I believe you can't logically reason from those verses to what you believe.
 

Anne1

Member
I believe this is false. The Trinity is not three Gods.

I believe I don't know anyone who believes that even if the Roman Catholics come close and Mary is never listed as part of the Trinity even by Catholics.
The ancient church, starting with Paul, insisted that the Trinity was one God,. There were what - I don't remember exactly - but something like 12 church councils before Nicea, which, once again, insisted Jesus was God.

No Catholic ever, unless you find a schizophrenic or foam at the mouth heretic, described Mary as God. None of the titles ascribed to her are anything close.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus was assailed and ridiculed because he said he was the SON of God.
New International Version
He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” (Matthew 27:43)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
An unbroken line of church councils decreed it. The church that wrote the scriptures and declared which scriptures were in the Bible.
I think they're still out in reference to the apocrypha.
 
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