For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Brian2]

Same as three Gods different wording. God the Father is not just a person. Jesus is the incarnate Son of God not just a person. You have not answered the question: Is Jesus the incarnate God? Is Jesus the Creator of the universe and humanity?

The Trinity describes three separate and distinct Divine Beings whether you describe them as Gods or Persons.

The 3 are distinct but not separate.
In the Son is the Father and the Holy Spirit. In the Father is the Son and Holy Spirit. In the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son.
The 3 are called YHWH in the Bible and the Father is called the one true God and imo that is because both the Son and the Holy Spirit come from the Father.
The 3 are involved in all things that God does, including the creation.
Jesus is called the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

This reflects the references concerning Mary from the texts of the NT that were cited in this thread,.

Yes and no. Mary is a human woman, the one chosen to bear and raise the human Jesus. But the titles Mother of God, Queen of heaven, etc etc carry other implications.
The Catholic Church just took their reverence for Mary too far. They seemed to be wanting other things to make pronouncements about instead of just leaving the revelation as it is.

The sources are accurate. The Pentateuch was published after 600 BCE. What it does not tell us is the beliefs of the Hebrews before 600 BCE

The Pentateuch, together with Joshua, tell us the origins of Israel. There are plenty of other writings, starting with Judges, which tell us the history and practices from the time of the Exodus till the Exile, and what YHWH thought of it and what YHWH did because of those things.

 

[shunyadragon]

The 3 are distinct but not separate.

They are described as distinct and separate whether you want to use the word Persons or Gods.

In the Son is the Father and the Holy Spirit. In the Father is the Son and Holy Spirit. In the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son.

This is not the way they are described Jesus is described specifically as the incarnate God seated at the right hand of God the Father and not part of the God the Father. Jesus may be the Son of God the Father and Mary the Mother of God. Jesus is described as a seperate Divine Being separate from the God the Father.

The 3 are called YHWH in the Bible, band the Father is called the one true God and imo that is because both the Son and the Holy Spirit come from the Father.
The 3 are involved in all things that God does, including the creation.

In the interpretation of the scripture you may be referring to they are pictured as three Divine Beings or Gods. Yes the three are involved in the things God does,

Jesus is called the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

Yes, and a God incarnate separate from the Father seated on the throne with God the Father, and not as a part of the God the Father,

Yes and no. Mary is a human woman, the one chosen to bear and raise the human Jesus. But the titles Mother of God, Queen of heaven, etc etc carry other implications.

Mary is not described in the Bible in terms as a human attributes in the references provided previously in this thread,

The Catholic Church just took their reverence for Mary too far. They seemed to be wanting other things to make pronouncements about instead of just leaving the revelation as it is.

The references referred to earlier reflect the belief of the Roman Church

The Pentateuch, together with Joshua, tell us the origins of Israel. There are plenty of other writings, starting with Judges, which tell us the history and practices from the time of the Exodus till the Exile, and what YHWH thought of it and what YHWH did because of those things.

The Pentateuch was not written and compiled until after 600 BCE. None of the writings you refer to nor the Hebrew written language existed prior to 600 BCE.

 

[Trailblazer]

True.

If this forum doesn't stop hanging up I'll be gone too. I don't have all of eternity to wait for every post I post!

Everything that the Father has belongs to the Son. (John 16:15)

I think you need to look at John 16 in context in order to understand what it means.

John 16

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you

Jesus had many things He could have said but those He was addressing could not bear them since they were not ready to hear them at that time.
As you know only too well I believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, so the he in verses 13, 14 and 15 refer to Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah glorified Jesus and He took what Jesus had said and showed it to us.

All things that the Father had Jesus also had and Jesus showed those things to us. Baha'u'llah took those things that Jesus had said and showed it to us. That is congruent with the following verse which says that the Comforter (who I believe was Baha'u'llah) reminded us of what Jesus had said.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Son was in the form of God before becoming a man (Phil 2)

Have you ever looked at all the different English translations of Phil 2:6? See some of them below). What I take away from these various translations is that Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal to God since Jesus had everything that God had, so Jesus did not need to rob God of anything since He was equal to God, although not in a way that could be grasped (understood).

Philippians 2:6

KJ21
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,

ESV
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

KJV
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

NASB
who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

NCV
Christ himself was like God in everything. But he did not think that being equal with God was something to be used for his own benefit.

NIRV
In his very nature he was God. Jesus was equal with God. But Jesus didn’t take advantage of that fact.

NIV
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

NKJV
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

NLV
Jesus has always been as God is. But He did not hold to His rights as God.

TLV
Who, though existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God a thing to be grasped.

VOICE
Though He was in the form of God, He chose not to cling to equality with God;

WE
He was in every way like God. Yet he did not think that being equal to God was something he must hold on to.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Philippians 2:6

and now is back filling the whole universe. (Eph 4:10) IOW the Son is more than a man.

Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

You got me on that verse as I won't even pretend to understand what it means. Suffice to say that Jesus was much more than a man.

Jesus being the image of the invisible God means that Jesus, internally, is exactly like the Father.
It is true that the Son is not the Father, but both the Father and Son are YHWH.
If God manifests Himself, it means that God appears to someone, not in His true form, but it is God and not someone who is a bit like God.

To me it means that Jesus was a mirror image of the Father although He was not the Father.
If God is the Father, and the Son is not the Father, then the Father and the Son cannot both he God, who is the Father.
There are two persons here, God the Father and Jesus the Son of God.

I agree that if God manifests Himself, it means that God appears not in His true form, which is spirit, but it is God manifesting in the flesh.
That is not someone who is a bit like God, it is someone who is just like God, except that Jesus came in the flesh and not as spirit being.

 

[Brian2]

They are described as distinct and separate whether you want to use the word Persons or Gods.

Are you talking about passages like "God sent His Son into the world"?
Passages like that have to exist so that we can see that the Son is not the Father.
They do not tell us that the Father and Son are separate however, since we find Jesus saying that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son.
or passages such as 2Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

This is not the way they are described Jesus is described specifically as the incarnate God seated at the right hand of God the Father and not part of the God the Father. Jesus may be the Son of God the Father and Mary the Mother of God. Jesus is described as a seperate Divine Being separate from the God the Father.

I did not say "part of the God the Father".

Yes, and a God incarnate separate from the Father seated on the throne with God the Father, and not as a part of the God the Father,

True, not part of the God the Father. iow they are distinct. BUT the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father even if they are seen as distinct.
Jesus said "The Father and I are one". That means that they are one thing, the Jews He was speaking to knew that and that is why they wanted to stone Him for saying it.

Mary is not described in the Bible in terms as a human attributes in the references provided previously in this thread,

Mary is always described in the Bible as just a human.

The Pentateuch was not written and compiled until after 600 BCE. None of the writings you refer to nor the Hebrew written language existed prior to 600 BCE.

The Israelites wrote texts before 600BC. The styles have evolved over time. War and destruction along with priests and scribes following other gods and being against what was written in the Torah, meant that the Hebrew Bible had a rough time even if it was preserved by God.

origins of the hebrew language - Google Search

Some people, such as yourself, see a lack of copies of books of the Torah earlier than 600BC and go straight to the idea that they did not exist, in any form before 600BC, but that can't be the case because many of the stories in them have been confirmed in the writings of other nations and in archaeology.

 

[Brian2]

If this forum doesn't stop hanging up I'll be gone too. I don't have all of eternity to wait for every post I post!

The problem could be on your end of the connection, but my posts take a long time to post also.

I think you need to look at John 16 in context in order to understand what it means.

John 16

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you

Jesus had many things He could have said but those He was addressing could not bear them since they were not ready to hear them at that time.
As you know only too well I believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, so the he in verses 13, 14 and 15 refer to Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah glorified Jesus and He took what Jesus had said and showed it to us.

All things that the Father had Jesus also had and Jesus showed those things to us. Baha'u'llah took those things that Jesus had said and showed it to us. That is congruent with the following verse which says that the Comforter (who I believe was Baha'u'llah) reminded us of what Jesus had said.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

However you know that Jesus was speaking to His disciples of 2000 years ago, the ones to know Jesus had spoken and so could be reminded of what He had said to them. IOW the Comforter is the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost.
And from the verse below we see that this Comforter is the Spirit of Truth.

John 15:26 “When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

You got me on that verse as I won't even pretend to understand what it means. Suffice to say that Jesus was much more than a man.

To me it means that Jesus was a mirror image of the Father although He was not the Father.
If God is the Father, and the Son is not the Father, then the Father and the Son cannot both he God, who is the Father.
There are two persons here, God the Father and Jesus the Son of God.

Jesus is compared to God and even said to be equal to God in the New Testament. This means that Jesus is YHWH since nobody is equal to or comparable to God.
Isa 40:25“To whom will you liken Me, or who is My equal?” asks the Holy One. 26Lift up your eyes on high: Who created all these? He leads forth the starry host by number; He calls each one by name. Because of His great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.…
So those who formed the trinity doctrine were just looking at the scriptures and wondering what it all means and coming up with the only thing that made sense to them.

I agree that if God manifests Himself, it means that God appears not in His true form, which is spirit, but it is God manifesting in the flesh.
That is not someone who is a bit like God, it is someone who is just like God, except that Jesus came in the flesh and not as spirit being.

 

[metis]

The trinity is not 3 Gods.

In the Catholic point of view, that is correct as Jesus and the Holy Spirit are considered to be of the essence of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem could be on your end of the connection, but my posts take a long time to post also.

It is not only on my end since I checked with @Truthseeker and he was having the same problem, although it seems to be better now.

However you know that Jesus was speaking to His disciples of 2000 years ago, the ones to know Jesus had spoken and so could be reminded of what He had said to them. IOW the Comforter is the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost.
And from the verse below we see that this Comforter is the Spirit of Truth.

John 15:26 “When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

Yes, the Comforter is the Spirit of truth, but it did not come at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), but the Comforter/Spirit of truth did not come at Pentecost.

No, it was not only for the disciples. If you want to take the stance then whatever Jesus said to His disciples only applied to the disciples during their lifetimes, in which case much of the NT would only apply to the disciples and NOT to Christians living today.

John 14, 15 and 16 says that the Comforter/Spirit of truth will do all these things on the list below, but it makes no sense that the Holy Spirit could do the those things. Only a man could do those things by speaking and writing.

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Moreover, and this is an important point, if this was to apply only to the disciples we know that the things on bulleted list above [that you say the Holy Spirit did during the lifetime of the disciples] did not happen during their lifetimes. Those things were not supposed to happen until Christ returned. Baha’u’llah has already done all those things and the rest will happen during His dispensation as the result of His coming.

Jesus is compared to God and even said to be equal to God in the New Testament. This means that Jesus is YHWH since nobody is equal to or comparable to God.
Isa 40:25“To whom will you liken Me, or who is My equal?” asks the Holy One. 26Lift up your eyes on high: Who created all these? He leads forth the starry host by number; He calls each one by name. Because of His great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.…
So those who formed the trinity doctrine were just looking at the scriptures and wondering what it all means and coming up with the only thing that made sense to them.

Unfortunately, back when Jesus walked the earth people did not know what to make of Jesus, so like you said thye came p with what made sense to them. They knew that Jesus was more than just a man, so they decided He must be God, because they did not know that a Manifestation of God has a twofold nature; one nature divine, the other nature human.

 

[freelight]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

'God' is forever ONE no matter how you slice or dice 'God';.....absolute Reality is that one universal omnipresent infinite reality, that is at the core and substrate of all existence, all that is and ever will be,...there is only 'God'! The One Power and OMNIPRESENCE. - fickling over trinity or unity issues is total semantics as far as language or mathmatics goes, so choose any particular 'Christology' that tickles your fancy

Your view, belief or concept of 'God' could change at any time, you could even become agnostic, pantheistic or atheistic in your soul's evolution, all is simply a point of view, a particular perspective subject to change,....your view is always conditional, unless you are grounded in truths and realities that are timeless, unchanging and universal in nature,...first principles. I say stick with those, and live by the rule of love and wisdom, such ethics and right doing will make a heaven of life wherever you exist, since heaven or hell are states of mind or consciousness anyways,....you are the co-creator of your own experience, and therefore your own 'reality' as you perceive it. Consciousness itself is the fundamental ground where reality self-reflects and determines itself, mind is the creator.

A trinitarian whole heartedly holds to monotheism in spirit and principle ANYWAYS.....so its splitting hairs or straining at gnats to assume that a 'conception' of 'God' is 'God' itself, for the reality of 'God' is Spirit......it is BEING recoginizing and referencing itself within a world of its own perceptions and creations,....and in that way we reflect 'God' as mirror images of Himself, expanding and evolving Gods own experience of Himself....since all there is, is 'God', whose omnipresence fills all in all. (that may be or less distorted by the lens being looked thru). There is no other! God Alone IS. - only the mind in its dividing, distinguishing and differentiating its perception among appearances, personalities, images, forms and things.....makes distinctions in such relationships, which is fine...but remember the primal UNITY before all duality, trinities or multiples,....for that ALONE is the One Power and Presence.




In-joy!


~*~*~

 

[Brian2]

Yes, the Comforter is the Spirit of truth, but it did not come at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), but the Comforter/Spirit of truth did not come at Pentecost.

You posted the following verse but then you deny what it tells us.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

No, it was not only for the disciples. If you want to take the stance then whatever Jesus said to His disciples only applied to the disciples during their lifetimes, in which case much of the NT would only apply to the disciples and NOT to Christians living today.

The promise of the Comforter who is the Holy Spirit who would remind them of what Jesus told them, was to the disciples (John 14:26) and the promise of the Comforter who is the Spirit of Truth, who would dwell with and be in them, was to those disciples also.
John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.…

We also know the promise was to all Christians because that is part of the New Covenant as promised in the OT.

John 14, 15 and 16 says that the Comforter/Spirit of truth will do all these things on the list below, but it makes no sense that the Holy Spirit could do the those things. Only a man could do those things by speaking and writing.

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Moreover, and this is an important point, if this was to apply only to the disciples we know that the things on bulleted list above [that you say the Holy Spirit did during the lifetime of the disciples] did not happen during their lifetimes. Those things were not supposed to happen until Christ returned. Baha’u’llah has already done all those things and the rest will happen during His dispensation as the result of His coming.

You listen to what a false prophets tells you and deny what the Bible tells us. God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, spoke to prophets all through the OT and to people in the New Testament also. A person does those things and that is what the Holy Spirit is.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would "live with" (abide) the disciples forever and you deny He is alive and that He dwelt with Jesus disciples.
Jesus promised His disciples that the Holy Spirit would teach them and remind them and you deny it.
You are the disciple of your false prophet and bear his fruit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you also deny the Bible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and that is what you need to do to be a disciple of Baha'u'llah and agree with him.

Unfortunately, back when Jesus walked the earth people did not know what to make of Jesus, so like you said thye came p with what made sense to them. They knew that Jesus was more than just a man, so they decided He must be God, because they did not know that a Manifestation of God has a twofold nature; one nature divine, the other nature human.

The Holy Spirit guided them into the truth about Jesus and reminded them of what Jesus had said about Himself.
You just keep talking the talk of the false prophet and denying the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

You posted the following verse but then you deny what it tells us.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

As I have said repeatedly in the past, The Comforter was the Holy Spirit which was sent to Baha'u'llah in the name of the Father.
That is why Baha'u'llah was called the Comforter.

Jesus was a Comforter because God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus to comfort people.
Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who came to comfort people.

The Holy Spirit descended over Jesus in a corporeal way, as a dove, at the time of his baptism, and a voice from Heaven was heard: "This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased." He is the Sanctifier, the Helper, Comforter, the Giver of graces, he who leads persons to the Father and the Son.

Holy Spirit in Christianity - Wikipedia​

John 14 KJV

​

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.​

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;​

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.​

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.​

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.​

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.​

Jesus kept His promise. The Spirit of Jesus did come to us in Baha'u'llah who revealed what is in verse 20.

The promise of the Comforter who is the Holy Spirit who would remind them of what Jesus told them, was to the disciples (John 14:26) and the promise of the Comforter who is the Spirit of Truth, who would dwell with and be in them, was to those disciples also.
John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.…

We also know the promise was to all Christians because that is part of the New Covenant as promised in the OT.

Yes, the promise to send another Comforter, Baha'u'llah, who would remind them of what Jesus told them was promised in the OT.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Another Comforter cannot be referring to the Holy Spirit because there is not another Holy Spirit. There is only one Holy Spirit.
"he" is referring to a man, not to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a man, it is the Bounty of God that God sends via a man and that man brings us the Holy Spirit.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?​

​

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.​

​

Some Answered Questions, p. 108​

​

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT​

You listen to what a false prophets tells you and deny what the Bible tells us. God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, spoke to prophets all through the OT and to people in the New Testament also. A person does those things and that is what the Holy Spirit is.

No, the Holy Spirit is not a person, it is the Bounty of God. God may well have spoken to prophets in the OT through the Holy Spirit, just as God spoke to Jesus and Baha'u'llah through the Holy Spirit. We know that God spoke to Moses at the burning bush, and God was speaking to Moses through the Holy Spirit, not directly. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God but it is also a medium through which God communicates to His Manifestations.

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90​

​

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104​

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would "live with" (abide) the disciples forever and you deny He is alive and that He dwelt with Jesus disciples.

I am not denying that. I just have a different belief about what the Holy Spirit is and how it came to be associated with the disciples of Jesus.

As it says in the passage above, the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality, but it also says that entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

So what that means in short is that the Holy Spirit had a direct connection to the disciples through the instrumentality of the soul, which was their reality, but the Holy Spirit did not actually live inside their bodies.

Jesus promised His disciples that the Holy Spirit would teach them and remind them and you deny it.

No, Jesus did not promise that. Jesus promised that the Comforter/Spirit of truth would teach them and remind them, and the Comforter/Spirit of truth taught what He learned from the Holy Spirit. In the following passage, the breezes of the All-Glorious refers to the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit of God that taught Baha'u'llah.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”​

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57​

The Holy Spirit guided them into the truth about Jesus and reminded them of what Jesus had said about Himself.
You just keep talking the talk of the false prophet and denying the Bible.

Those chapters in John are not only addressed to the disciples. They were to be read by people living in the future, long after the disciples died.
The promises that Jesus made to the disciples were not to be fulfilled during the physical lifetimes of the disciples. We know that the disciples continued to live in heaven because Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for them (John 14:2).

The following things it says that the Comforter/Spirit of truth would do did not happen during the lifetime of the disciples.

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

 

[Brian2]

As I have said repeatedly in the past, The Comforter was the Holy Spirit which was sent to Baha'u'llah in the name of the Father.
That is why Baha'u'llah was called the Comforter.

John 14:26 tells us that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
You are saying that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit AND that the Comforter is also Baha'u'llah.
Make up your mind, which is it?

Jesus was a Comforter because God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus to comfort people.
Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who came to comfort people.

Jesus was a Comforter to His disciples when He was with His disciples. When He left His disciples He sent another Comforter, the Holy Spirit, so that they would not be alone.
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

As you can read, the Comforter/Spirit of Truth, that Jesus promised cannot be Baha'u'llah because Baha'u'llah does not dwell with anyone and is not in anyone.

John 14 KJV

​

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.​

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;​

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.​

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.​

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.​

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.​

Jesus kept His promise. The Spirit of Jesus did come to us in Baha'u'llah who revealed what is in verse 20.

The Spirit of Christ actually came to them in the Holy Spirit.
That is why Jesus said John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
This is promised to Jesus disciples. It is not Jesus saying to wait 1800 years. It is the same with the passage you quoted. (John 14:14-20) What is the point of Jesus saying that He was not going to leave His disciples comfortless, but would come to them about 1800 years later?

Yes, the promise to send another Comforter, Baha'u'llah, who would remind them of what Jesus told them was promised in the OT.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Another Comforter cannot be referring to the Holy Spirit because there is not another Holy Spirit. There is only one Holy Spirit.
"he" is referring to a man, not to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a man, it is the Bounty of God that God sends via a man and that man brings us the Holy Spirit.Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

​

Some Answered Questions, p. 108​

​

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT​

True, the Holy Spirit (also known as the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth) is not a man.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-25.html

I am not denying that. I just have a different belief about what the Holy Spirit is and how it came to be associated with the disciples of Jesus.

Yes you do want to define Biblical terms as Baha'u'llah defines them, but by doing that you end up denying the Bible.
If the Holy Spirit is not a person then He cannot abide with (live with) Jesus disciples.
But you deny that He is a person.
The Bible makes it clear who and what the Holy Spirit (also known as the Comforter and Spirit of Truth) is and how it came to be associated with the disciles of Jesus.

As it says in the passage above, the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality, but it also says that entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

So what that means in short is that the Holy Spirit had a direct connection to the disciples through the instrumentality of the soul, which was their reality, but the Holy Spirit did not actually live inside their bodies.

Are you sure it means that?

No, Jesus did not promise that. Jesus promised that the Comforter/Spirit of truth would teach them and remind them, and the Comforter/Spirit of truth taught what He learned from the Holy Spirit. In the following passage, the breezes of the All-Glorious refers to the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit of God that taught Baha'u'llah.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”​

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57​

So the Holy Spirit can speak to Baha'u'llah and teach him but cannot do the same with Christians. And yet the Bible tells us that it would and shows us places where it did in the NT. In the OT the Holy Spirit spoke to and taught the prophets and others, and I mean the everyday run of the mill prophets like Isaiah and Elijah etc.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/PB/pb-12.html.utf8?query=couch&action=highlight#gr1

Those chapters in John are not only addressed to the disciples. They were to be read by people living in the future, long after the disciples died.
The promises that Jesus made to the disciples were not to be fulfilled during the physical lifetimes of the disciples. We know that the disciples continued to live in heaven because Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for them (John 14:2).

It is plain that Jesus was speaking to and promising His disciples the Holy Spirit (also known as the Comforter and Spirit of Truth).

The following things it says that the Comforter/Spirit of truth would do did not happen during the lifetime of the disciples.

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

The disciples were taught all things.
How could anyone be reminded what Jesus said to them unless they had heard Jesus?
The miracles that the Spirit did in Acts, in the name of Jesus, testify to the truth of Jesus.
These things glorified Jesus. The Spirit is the one who was leading the Christians and giving the disciples words of truth, from Jesus, to speak.
The Spirit spoke what He heard to the disciples and shewed them what was to come.
And of course the Spirit reproved the world of sin and righteousness and judgement.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 14:26 tells us that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
You are saying that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit AND that the Comforter is also Baha'u'llah.
Make up your mind, which is it?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Comforter is the Holy Spirit that Baha'u'llah brought from the Father.
Baha'u'llah was 'called' the Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit which was sent to Him by the Father.

Jesus was a Comforter to His disciples when He was with His disciples. When He left His disciples He sent another Comforter, the Holy Spirit, so that they would not be alone.
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

As you can read, the Comforter/Spirit of Truth, that Jesus promised cannot be Baha'u'llah because Baha'u'llah does not dwell with anyone and is not in anyone.

he will give you another Comforter, to be with you forever -- The Holy Spirit that Baha'u'llah brought will be with them forever.
You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you -- The disciples knew the Holy Spirit and it dwelt with them because they got it from Jesus.

This is promised to Jesus disciples. It is not Jesus saying to wait 1800 years. It is the same with the passage you quoted. (John 14:14-20) What is the point of Jesus saying that He was not going to leave His disciples comfortless, but would come to them about 1800 years later?

Jesus was not only addressing the disciples, He was addressing people who would be reading the Bible later, when Christ returned --
And now I have told you before it come to pass, that when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

John 14

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, ‘I go away and come again unto you.’ If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice because I said, ‘I go unto the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 “Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.

Of the five key prophecies by Jesus Christ fulfilled by Baha’u’llah, cited by Shoghi Effendi in God Passes By, Baha’u’llah’s messianic identification as the “Prince of this world” is presumably based on this tablet from Abdu’l-Baha:​

​

Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ’Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty [Baha’u’llah]; and ’hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine. – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 171.​

The verse in question is John 14:30:​

​

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. – John 14:30.​

​

Baha’u’llah as the Prince of Peace

Who, Biblical scholars have long asked, is “the Prince of this world” (John 14:30)? Christians universally identify the “Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6) as Jesus Christ. This article explores a...

bahaiteachings.org

True, the Holy Spirit (also known as the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth) is not a man.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 108-109

No, the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth are not a man, those were only titles for the man who brought the Holy Spirit.
It was not the man Baha'u'llah who did the works, it was the Holy Spirit that was in Him.

Similarly, Jesus was able to do the works of the Father because the Father was in Him. Jesus said He could do nothing by Himself.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Yes you do want to define Biblical terms as Baha'u'llah defines them, but by doing that you end up denying the Bible.
If the Holy Spirit is not a person then He cannot abide with (live with) Jesus disciples.
But you deny that He is a person.
The Bible makes it clear who and what the Holy Spirit (also known as the Comforter and Spirit of Truth) is and how it came to be associated with the disciles of Jesus.

The Holy Spirit does not have to be a person in order to abide with (live with) Jesus disciples. It is the Spirit of God that abides with them.

Are you sure it means that?

Yes, I am sure, and it also makes sense.

So the Holy Spirit can speak to Baha'u'llah and teach him but cannot do the same with Christians. And yet the Bible tells us that it would and shows us places where it did in the NT. In the OT the Holy Spirit spoke to and taught the prophets and others, and I mean the everyday run of the mill prophets like Isaiah and Elijah etc.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 57-60

Yes, the Holy Spirit spoke and taught prophets like Isaiah and if we get the Holy Spirit from Jesus or Baha'u'llah it can teach us and inspire us..

INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

I now assure thee, O servant of God, that, if thy mind become empty and pure from every mention and thought and thy heart attracted wholly to the Kingdom of God, forget all else besides God and come in communion with the Spirit of God, then the Holy Spirit will assist thee with a power which will enable thee to penetrate all things, and a Dazzling Spark which enlightens all sides, a Brilliant Flame in the zenith of the heavens, will teach thee that which thou dost not know of the facts of the universe and of the divine doctrine. Verily, I say unto thee, every soul which ariseth today to guide others to the path of safety and infuse in them the Spirit of Life, the Holy Spirit will inspire that soul with evidences, proofs and facts and the lights will shine upon it from the Kingdom of God. Do not forget what I have conveyed unto thee from the breath of the Spirit. Verily, it is the shining morning and the rosy dawn which will impart unto thee the lights, reveal the mysteries and make thee competent in science, and through it the pictures of the Supreme World will be printed in thy heart and the facts of the secrets of the Kingdom of God will shine before thee. Bahá’í World Faith, p. 369

It is plain that Jesus was speaking to and promising His disciples the Holy Spirit (also known as the Comforter and Spirit of Truth).

Jesus was not only promising the Holy Spirit to the disciples, He was promising it to everyone.

The disciples were taught all things.

Not all things. There were many things that He held back.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Baha'u'llah was also called the Spirit of truth because it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth and Jesus said what he would do when he came.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

One of the various proofs that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is that Baha’u’llah did EXACTLY what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

How could anyone be reminded what Jesus said to them unless they had heard Jesus?

They had already heard Jesus.

The miracles that the Spirit did in Acts, in the name of Jesus, testify to the truth of Jesus.

Baha'u'llah also testified to the truth of Jesus.

The Spirit is the one who was leading the Christians and giving the disciples words of truth, from Jesus, to speak.
The Spirit spoke what He heard to the disciples and shewed them what was to come.
And of course the Spirit reproved the world of sin and righteousness and judgement.

Yes, the Holy Spirit did all of that.

 

[Brian2]

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Comforter is the Holy Spirit that Baha'u'llah brought from the Father.
Baha'u'llah was 'called' the Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit which was sent to Him by the Father.

So Baha'u'llah is not really the Comforter if the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.

John 14

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, ‘I go away and come again unto you.’ If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice because I said, ‘I go unto the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 “Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.

Of the five key prophecies by Jesus Christ fulfilled by Baha’u’llah, cited by Shoghi Effendi in God Passes By, Baha’u’llah’s messianic identification as the “Prince of this world” is presumably based on this tablet from Abdu’l-Baha:​

​

Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ’Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty [Baha’u’llah]; and ’hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine. – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 171.​

The verse in question is John 14:30:​

​

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. – John 14:30.​

We can see who the prince of this world is by other passages in John's gospel.
John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
John 16:10 ....in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned.

Baha’u’llah as the Prince of Peace

Who, Biblical scholars have long asked, is “the Prince of this world” (John 14:30)? Christians universally identify the “Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6) as Jesus Christ. This article explores a...

bahaiteachings.org

So God has created all in His image and so Satan does not exist even though humans have an evil lower nature.
That sounds contradictory to me and shows a misunderstanding by Abdul Baha, of Satan.
Below is a quote from the site. This is honest. John 14:26 defines the Comforter as the Holy Spirit. But that can't be true so Christians must have changed the passage. The fruit of Baha'u'llah is again showing in his followers. Denying the Bible is necessary to be a Baha'i because the Bible does not agree with Baha'u'llah or Effendi or Abdul-Baha etc
In John 14:26, just four verses earlier, Jesus foretells the coming of “the Comforter.” Of course, the text defines the Comforter as the “Holy Spirit.” However, this is the only occurrence of the term “Holy Spirit” in the Farewell Discourse. In every other occurrence of the “Comforter,” the “Spirit of Truth” is closely associated. It may well be that the original text, before the final editing of this passage by the author of the Gospel of John, was the “Spirit of Truth” as well.

The Holy Spirit does not have to be a person in order to abide with (live with) Jesus disciples. It is the Spirit of God that abides with them.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Yes, the Holy Spirit spoke and taught prophets like Isaiah and if we get the Holy Spirit from Jesus or Baha'u'llah it can teach us and inspire us..

So there goes one of your arguments, that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it teaches people.

Jesus was not only promising the Holy Spirit to the disciples, He was promising it to everyone.

Yes He did promise the Holy Spirit to His disciples and to all those who entered the New Covenant which He instituted.
That means that He was promising them the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth.

Not all things. There were many things that He held back.

Maybe, maybe not. But of course the Holy Spirit continues to show truth to each Christian.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Baha'u'llah was also called the Spirit of truth because it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth and Jesus said what he would do when he came.

OK Baha'u'llah wants to be called the Spirit of Truth, but the Bible tells us that the Comforter and Spirit of Truth are the Holy Spirit, unless you change the meaning or say that Christians have changed the text.

One of the various proofs that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is that Baha’u’llah did EXACTLY what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

So Baha'u'llah wants to make the miracles of Jesus into symbolic things. iow Jesus did not heal lepers, but their leprosy was "perversity and ignorance" etc.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-36.html.utf8?query=son|of|man&action=highlight

They had already heard Jesus.

Exactly, you need to have heard Jesus to be reminded of what He had said to you.

Baha'u'llah also testified to the truth of Jesus.

No, Baha'u'llah denies what Jesus said.

Yes, the Holy Spirit did all of that.

Yes all those thing did happen during the lifetime of the disciples, and the Holy Spirit did them through the disciples.

 

[Trailblazer]

So Baha'u'llah is not really the Comforter if the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.

Baha'u'llah was the Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit. That is my interpretation of the verses.

I decided to look this up to be sure I am getting this right. I wanted to know for sure if Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Comforter.

“O followers of the Son! We have once again sent John unto you, and He, verily, hath cried out in the wilderness of the Bayán: O peoples of the world! Cleanse your eyes! The Day whereon ye can behold the Promised One and attain unto Him hath drawn nigh! O followers of the Gospel! Prepare the way! The Day of the advent of the Glorious Lord is at hand! Make ready to enter the Kingdom. Thus hath it been ordained by God, He Who causeth the dawn to break.

Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 63-64

We can see who the prince of this world is by other passages in John's gospel.
John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
John 16:10 ....in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned.

Who do you think the prince of this world is? Below is the continuation of the article which states that Baha’u’llah as the “prince of this world” is controversial, to say the least.

The verse in question is John 14:30:

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. – John 14:30.

In the received Christian interpretation this verse and its parallels are often interpreted as referring to Satan. So the Baha’i identification of Baha’u’llah as the “prince of this world” is controversial, to say the least. This article will take this exegetical challenge head-on, with the disclaimer that the following opinion is mine, and does not reflect any official Baha’i position.

According to Christian interpreters, John 14:30 has two parallels, which are as follows:

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. – John 12:31.

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. – John 16:11.

Suffice it to say that Abdu’l-Baha has interpreted John 14:30 only, not John 12:31 or John 16:11. One reason may be that, elsewhere, Abdu’l-Baha makes clear that no Satan exists:

Baha’u’llah as the Prince of Peace

Who, Biblical scholars have long asked, is “the Prince of this world” (John 14:30)? Christians universally identify the “Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6) as Jesus Christ. This article explores a...

bahaiteachings.org

https://biblehub.com/greek/2919.htm

So God has created all in His image and so Satan does not exist even though humans have an evil lower nature.
That sounds contradictory to me and shows a misunderstanding by Abdul Baha, of Satan.
Below is a quote from the site. This is honest. John 14:26 defines the Comforter as the Holy Spirit. But that can't be true so Christians must have changed the passage. The fruit of Baha'u'llah is again showing in his followers. Denying the Bible is necessary to be a Baha'i because the Bible does not agree with Baha'u'llah or Effendi or Abdul-Baha etc
In John 14:26, just four verses earlier, Jesus foretells the coming of “the Comforter.” Of course, the text defines the Comforter as the “Holy Spirit.” However, this is the only occurrence of the term “Holy Spirit” in the Farewell Discourse. In every other occurrence of the “Comforter,” the “Spirit of Truth” is closely associated. It may well be that the original text, before the final editing of this passage by the author of the Gospel of John, was the “Spirit of Truth” as well.

You want to believe that the Comforter/Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit that was sent on the Day of Pentecost, and it now lives inside of believers but that is nothing short of a Christian doctrine which is based upon a certain interpretation of the Bible.

I believe the Comforter/Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah who brought the Holy Spirit, which is in accord with His Writings.

“This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” And yet, behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

I am glad we can agree on that.

So there goes one of your arguments, that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it teaches people.

The Holy Spirit does not have to be a person in order to teach people. The Spirit of God came to those prophets and taught them just as it taught Jesus and Baha'u'llah.
The Spirit of God is not a person, it is a spirit. God is not a person, God is a spirit. Jesus was a person.

Yes He did promise the Holy Spirit to His disciples and to all those who entered the New Covenant which He instituted.
That means that He was promising them the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth.

Jesus might have promised the Holy Spirit to His disciples and to all those who entered the New Covenant which He instituted, but that happened in the days when Jesus was on earth.

The Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days when Christ returned. Acts 2:17-21 prophesied that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh.

Baha'u'llah was the Comforter/Spirit of truth who received the Holy Spirit from God and poured it out upon all flesh.

Maybe, maybe not. But of course the Holy Spirit continues to show truth to each Christian.

It was Jesus who said that He held some things back.
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

OK Baha'u'llah wants to be called the Spirit of Truth, but the Bible tells us that the Comforter and Spirit of Truth are the Holy Spirit, unless you change the meaning or say that Christians have changed the text.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I do not have to change the meaning, since there is no established meaning, no meaning except what we interpret the verse to mean.
God the Father did send the Holy Spirit when He sent Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. Baha'u'llah taught all things and brought to remembrance what Jesus had said.

The Holy Spirit cannot teach all things and bring all things to remembrance except through a person.

So Baha'u'llah wants to make the miracles of Jesus into symbolic things. iow Jesus did not heal lepers, but their leprosy was "perversity and ignorance" etc.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-36.html.utf8?query=son|of|man&action=highlight

Baha'u'llah did not say that Jesus did not actually heal lepers. Referring to Jesus He wrote:

Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished.http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-36.html.utf8?query=son|of|man&action=highlight

No, Baha'u'llah denies what Jesus said.

No, Baha'u'llah did not deny anything that Jesus said.
Baha'u'llah took no glory away from Jesus, He glorified Jesus. You want Jesus to have all the glory forever and ever, just like all Christians, but God does not work that way. God sends a Manifestation in every age, and we are supposed to recognize all of them and not prefer one over another.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

 

[Brian2]

Baha'u'llah was the Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit. That is my interpretation of the verses.

I decided to look this up to be sure I am getting this right. I wanted to know for sure if Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Comforter.

“O followers of the Son! We have once again sent John unto you, and He, verily, hath cried out in the wilderness of the Bayán: O peoples of the world! Cleanse your eyes! The Day whereon ye can behold the Promised One and attain unto Him hath drawn nigh! O followers of the Gospel! Prepare the way! The Day of the advent of the Glorious Lord is at hand! Make ready to enter the Kingdom. Thus hath it been ordained by God, He Who causeth the dawn to break.

Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 63-64

Yes, I already know that you believe whatever Baha'u'llah says even when it contradicts what the Bible says.
https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html.utf8?query=comforter&action=highlight#gr122

The Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days when Christ returned. Acts 2:17-21 prophesied that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh.

Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

So Peter was explaining on Pentecost that the disciples speaking in the languages of all those there, was what had been promised by God through Joel.

Yes as the Bible tells us, the last days began with Jesus
Heb 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.

I do not have to change the meaning, since there is no established meaning, no meaning except what we interpret the verse to mean.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The established meaning is what it says. IOW the Comforter is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit taught the disciples and helped them remember what Jesus had told them. That is what it says.

The Holy Spirit cannot teach all things and bring all things to remembrance except through a person.

Make up your mind. You said that the Holy Spirit did teach the OT prophets (Isaiah etc) and if He can do that then He can remind them of what Jesus said. He still does that in believers these days.

No, Baha'u'llah did not deny anything that Jesus said.
Baha'u'llah took no glory away from Jesus, He glorified Jesus. You want Jesus to have all the glory forever and ever, just like all Christians, but God does not work that way. God sends a Manifestation in every age, and we are supposed to recognize all of them and not prefer one over another.

I prefer Jesus, the Christ over someone who denies the Bible, the Word of God, and who claims to be the return of Christ by changing the plain meaning of the Bible............... as I have just pointed out with John 14:26.

 

[Muffled]

I do not believe that Jesus was God in the flesh because God cannot become flesh since God is spirit.
Jesus and Baha'u'llah were both self-proclaimed Messengers of God and Manifestations of God.

I believe you are in error The Spirit of God can inhabit a body as easily as any spirit can inhabit a body and none of us spirits become the bodies that we inhabit.

 

[Muffled]

The Christian belief in the Trinity of three God results from the belief of Jesus as God, and Mary as a Goddess, Queen of the Angels and Heaven, and Mother of god. Very similar to ancient Hebrew beliefs of YHWH and Asherah, and hierarchy of Gods in ancient Judaism inherited fro the Canaanite/Ugarit religion because the Hebrews were originally a Canaanite trine.

I believe this is false. The Trinity is not three Gods.

I believe I don't know anyone who believes that even if the Roman Catholics come close and Mary is never listed as part of the Trinity even by Catholics.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus did not claim to be a manifestation of God. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.
Jesus claim to be the Son of God and a messenger from God was backed up by God's enabling Jesus to perform miracles and by God raising Jesus from the dead.
The term "Manifestation of God" seems to be specifically a Baha'i term and results from a redefinition of the word "Manifestation".

I believe on may construe him as a manifestation of God simply by the fact that he talks about God but I suspect the Bahai's mean more than that even if it isn't true.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus did not claim to be a manifestation of God. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.
Jesus claim to be the Son of God and a messenger from God was backed up by God's enabling Jesus to perform miracles and by God raising Jesus from the dead.
The term "Manifestation of God" seems to be specifically a Baha'i term and results from a redefinition of the word "Manifestation".

I believe on may construe him as a manifestation of God simply by the fact that he talks about God but I suspect the Bahai's mean more than that even if it isn't true.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe you are in error The Spirit of God can inhabit a body as easily as any spirit can inhabit a body and none of us spirits become the bodies that we inhabit.

I do not believe the Spirit of God can actually inhabit a body, as Christians believe (indwelt Holy Spirit).
The Holy Spirit can have a direct connection to the body through the instrumentality of the soul, but that is not the same thing as 'living inside' the body.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT