"Forced Genital Cutting," and Jewish circumcision

[jewscout]

But your position rejects personal choice.

AFAICT, nobody in this thread is arguing that circumcision should be abolished, only delayed. Personally, I'm arguing that circumcision should wait until the boy is old enough to decide for himself that it's really what he wants to do. Your position is that circumcision should happen even when the boy is too young to understand what it is or express that he wants it done.

My position upholds personal choice. Your position denies personal choice.

after going through page after page of this thread....

As the parent of jewish children, who have no choice but to be jewish (on one level or another), I do make the decision to have my son circumcised for several cultural and religious reasons. I don't see it as denying personal choice as much as normalizing them to the rest of the social and religious group that they were born in to.

on this we will have to simply have to be on opposite ends of an argument.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

after going through page after page of this thread....

As the parent of jewish children, who have no choice but to be jewish (on one level or another),

I'm not sure what you're driving at here. Are you saying that you're planning to force religion on them even if they object, or are you arguing that their ethnic background somehow obliges them to be circumcized?

I do make the decision to have my son circumcised for several cultural and religious reasons. I don't see it as denying personal choice as much as normalizing them to the rest of the social and religious group that they were born in to.

Well, denying personal choice is wrapped up in the practice. It would be more honest to acknowledge this but say that this is outweighed (at least in your value system) by other factors.

on this we will have to simply have to be on opposite ends of an argument.

Apparently.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

after going through page after page of this thread....

As the parent of jewish children, who have no choice but to be jewish (on one level or another), I do make the decision to have my son circumcised for several cultural and religious reasons. I don't see it as denying personal choice as much as normalizing them to the rest of the social and religious group that they were born in to.

on this we will have to simply have to be on opposite ends of an argument.

I have read that through several times... it seems almost fatalistic.

You have no way of knowing where your childrens lives will lead. Your grand children may have no concept of being Jewish.

My Grand mother was Jewish and married a Christian. Her daughters were educated as, and became nominally Christian. Blood wise Her grandchildren are 1/4 Jewish. Of the many grand children only my eldest brother is Circumcised.

None of us have any other Jewish religious or cultural connections. I Know nothing about any of my Jewish cousins or family (if they still exist). Except that their name was Golder and lived in Finchley London.

So you see that our status at birth need not remain as it was. But can lead almost anywhere within a couple of generations.

 

[dawny0826]

Save child neglect and abuse, I fail to see why others feel it justified to persuade parents to act against their convictions and for what they deem to be in the best interest of their own children.

We don't leave our children at home when we participate in religious activities. We shouldn't have to defy covenants and requirements for the purpose of making outsiders feel less squeamish.

I have never known a man to regret his circumcision. I've never cared for an infant boy who suffered severe effects from his circumcision.

My personal experiences and that of most, if not all within my peer group align with the statistical information regarding male infant circumcision. Sometimes, babies are healed from their circumcisions before they lose their umbilical stump with no recollection of the procedure.

The only poor choice is the choice you make without educating yourself on negate impact. Parents should be able to make informed choices for their children without pressure in or out of religious context.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Circumcision is not high on my priority of things that should not be done to boys.
though it is not someting I would care to be involved with.
however it does seem to be a strong social custom in some countries like The USA and Africa where it has no particular religious connection.
though it is certainly being done less often in the USA than in the past. It is not decreasing anywhere nearly as fast as Europe.

As this site has a preponderance of users from the USA and other places that circumcise for religious reasons. The support it recieves in the posts suggest an uptake that is quite disproportionate to reality.

where it is still commonly done, change will likely come only in those parts where the health services do not fund it.
It might even become an indicator of social position.

It is interesting that European health professionals find no proven health benefits for the procedure, whilst those in the USA who can charge for the service, do so.

 

[jewscout]

I have read that through several times... it seems almost fatalistic.

You have no way of knowing where your childrens lives will lead. Your grand children may have no concept of being Jewish.

My Grand mother was Jewish and married a Christian. Her daughters were educated as, and became nominally Christian. Blood wise Her grandchildren are 1/4 Jewish. Of the many grand children only my eldest brother is Circumcised.

None of us have any other Jewish religious or cultural connections. I Know nothing about any of my Jewish cousins or family (if they still exist). Except that their name was Golder and lived in Finchley London.

So you see that our status at birth need not remain as it was. But can lead almost anywhere within a couple of generations.

I can't speak to your grandmother's journey...

But my wife and I take great pride in our Jewish identity and have a deep connection to our Jewish faith. We plan on imparting this to our children, as well as the continuation of our faith and culture to their own children. If they fall away from Torah that will not change the way Jewish law sees them, nor the way the enemies of our people will see them. They are Jews and Israeli and nothing can change that, all they can do is find their place in Torah.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I can't speak to your grandmother's journey...

But my wife and I take great pride in our Jewish identity and have a deep connection to our Jewish faith. We plan on imparting this to our children, as well as the continuation of our faith and culture to their own children. If they fall away from Torah that will not change the way Jewish law sees them, nor the way the enemies of our people will see them. They are Jews and Israeli and nothing can change that, all they can do is find their place in Torah.

I am sure that is so . But at what point is the progeny of a Jewish parent no longer Jewish. Either by recognition or intent?
Almost every one is related to a Jew at some point in their family history.

 

[ametist]

many people find it ok to physically hit their kids from very young age on for 'educational' purposes and they use it as a method. i have seen books, religious dogma or many threads in the internet supporting it. i had been rather suprised to see number of parents supporting it were so high. i met families and knew quite deal of them who had their kids circumcisized when they are born but never thought of hitting their kids as a method of 'education'. i think the kids will know the difference. perhaps it is a defense technique of those who grew up in US or UK. hitting kids for 'educational' purposes are pretty common there and those kids when they grew up in such families redirecting their anger towards muslim or jew tradition since it is difficult for a kid to condemn their own parents. Also You are thinking muslim or jew communities dont have doctors or enough medicine to make them painless, i am supposing. it really hurts less than a slapping sequence on the butt and it isnt psychologically degrading at all especially when you dont remember it or when you have a big party for it when you reach to your age to recall it so that family can celebrate with you your past experience and you are given lots of hugs and presents. so yes, kid will know.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

many people find it ok to physically hit their kids from very young age on for 'educational' purposes and they use it as a method. i have seen books, religious dogma or many threads in the internet supporting it. i had been rather suprised to see number of parents supporting it were so high. i met families and knew quite deal of them who had their kids circumcisized when they are born but never thought of hitting their kids as a method of 'education'. i think the kids will know the difference. perhaps it is a defense technique of those who grew up in US or UK. hitting kids for 'educational' purposes are pretty common there and those kids when they grew up in such families redirecting their anger towards muslim or jew tradition since it is difficult for a kid to condemn their own parents. Also You are thinking muslim or jew communities dont have doctors or enough medicine to make them painless, i am supposing. it really hurts less than a slapping sequence on the butt and it isnt psychologically degrading at all especially when you dont remember it or when you have a big party for it when you reach to your age to recall it so that family can celebrate with you your past experience and you are given lots of hugs and presents. so yes, kid will know.

Comparing abusing children by physical punishment with circumcision is bizarre. In the UK and Europe Physical abuse of children is a criminal offence.
The practice of slapping children in public is almost non existent, it is now almost extinct in private.
It is never OK to hit your Kids. It is not acceptable for any reason.

 

[ametist]

Comparing abusing children by physical punishment with circumcision is bizarre. In the UK and Europe Physical abuse of children is a criminal offence.
The practice of slapping children in public is almost non existent, it is now almost extinct in private.
It is never OK to hit your Kids. It is not acceptable for any reason.

this isnt how you gonna find out with a little bit of search over the web. many parents think slaps on butt starting from age one onward is valid 'education' method.most willing supporters are from uk or us.
why is it weird? u see it as a form of physical abuse to object to it, tryin to ban it etc. ok you can ban it but just like people hit their kids in their house's bedroom, people can go abroad and find a reliable doctor to have it done painlessly.

 

[jewscout]

I am sure that is so . But at what point is the progeny of a Jewish parent no longer Jewish. Either by recognition or intent?
Almost every one is related to a Jew at some point in their family history.

You want my personal opinion (and now we get a bit off topic, but). I believe the moment one stops Jewish practices, most notably the keeping of the Shabbat, it increases the likelihood of children falling away from Judaism. That is ,IMPO, unless you live in Israel.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can't speak to your grandmother's journey...

But my wife and I take great pride in our Jewish identity and have a deep connection to our Jewish faith. We plan on imparting this to our children, as well as the continuation of our faith and culture to their own children. If they fall away from Torah that will not change the way Jewish law sees them, nor the way the enemies of our people will see them. They are Jews and Israeli and nothing can change that, all they can do is find their place in Torah.

Ironically, the thing that makes it possible to enjoy and celebrate your faith - freedom of religion - is what you're trying to deny for your children.

 

[jewscout]

Ironically, the thing that makes it possible to enjoy and celebrate your faith - freedom of religion - is what you're trying to deny for your children.

They are Jews, our faith defines them as Jews for the rest of their lives, whether they totally fall away from Judaism and become atheist or Catholic or what. It is hard to deny a choice when there isn't one.

 

[ametist]

Ironically, the thing that makes it possible to enjoy and celebrate your faith - freedom of religion - is what you're trying to deny for your children.

having a circumsicion on the first week of your birth doesnt mean you are 'doomed' with that religion. thats a weird logic. and all this issue includes some genital or religious phobias reflected. many people can choose to have it done without any religious concerns at a later age too. when you are old enough you can pick anything in your heart and i am sure many did although they had been circumcised.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They are Jews, our faith defines them as Jews for the rest of their lives, whether they totally fall away from Judaism and become atheist or Catholic or what. It is hard to deny a choice when there isn't one.

If you're talking about an ethnicity, then I agree that a person has no choice... but an ethnicity also doesn't impose any obligations on a person.

If you're talking about a religion, then it's entirely a matter of choice.

Edit: for another way of looking at it, ask yourself a question: why do you think you should be allowed to practice the Jewish faith?

I know why I think you should: because I uphold freedom of religion. I think each person, including you, should be free to believe and practice your religion as freely as you want, provided you don't infringe on the freedoms of others.

But here's the thing: this rationale for why I think you should have the right to practice the Jewish religion implies that your children should have the right not to follow it, or to follow some other religion.

Since you don't uphold this right for your children, it's unavailable to you as support for your own rights. So what other reason do you have to proclaim your right to be Jewish?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

having a circumsicion on the first week of your birth doesnt mean you are 'doomed' with that religion. thats a weird logic.

That's also not what I'm saying. I was thinking about religious indoctrination in general. I suppose circumcision can be part of that, but it's definitely not the most significant part.

and all this issue includes some genital or religious phobias reflected. many people can choose to have it done without any religious concerns at a later age too. when you are old enough you can pick anything in your heart and i am sure many did although they had been circumcised.

And if you live under an oppressive regime, you can still worship in secret in a basement somewhere. It doesn't change the fact that in either case, there's an effort against freedom of religion.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

this isnt how you gonna find out with a little bit of search over the web. many parents think slaps on butt starting from age one onward is valid 'education' method.most willing supporters are from uk or us.
why is it weird? u see it as a form of physical abuse to object to it, tryin to ban it etc. ok you can ban it but just like people hit their kids in their house's bedroom, people can go abroad and find a reliable doctor to have it done painlessly.

If male Circumcision become unlawful. People who have it done to their children anywhere would be prosecuted when they return.
This is the situation for those who have their girls circumcised now.

Of course you will have people sounding off on forums about smacking children in the UK and elsewhere. However it is a criminal act and punishable by imprisonment if caught.

There are a large number of ignorant people in the world, If there were not these laws would be unnecessary.

 

[metis]

Jewish children will have the full right to choose which religious tradition to follow, if any, and the circumcision of males doesn't prevent that. It's a very minor procedure medically that appears to have some limited health benefits with rarely any kind of handicap. If Jewish parents do not want to circumcise their son, they have the full right to not do it.

As parents, we make choices every day about our kids that have effects, so I fail to see the problem with some parents choosing to have their son circumcised. Seems like some are trying to dictate to other parents what they must do in an area that really appears to cause no real harm.

 

[jewscout]

If you're talking about an ethnicity, then I agree that a person has no choice... but an ethnicity also doesn't impose any obligations on a person.

If you're talking about a religion, then it's entirely a matter of choice.

Edit: for another way of looking at it, ask yourself a question: why do you think you should be allowed to practice the Jewish faith?

I know why I think you should: because I uphold freedom of religion. I think each person, including you, should be free to believe and practice your religion as freely as you want, provided you don't infringe on the freedoms of others.

But here's the thing: this rationale for why I think you should have the right to practice the Jewish religion implies that your children should have the right not to follow it, or to follow some other religion.

Since you don't uphold this right for your children, it's unavailable to you as support for your own rights. So what other reason do you have to proclaim your right to be Jewish?

1) Much of my faith requires I deny my children freedom of choice, should I stop doing this as well?

2) Being a Jew is a socio-religious identity. Faith plays a part but even those who fall away from Judaism are still considered Jews, both by halachah and often by those in the non-jewish world who view Jews as a race as much as a religious group.

My right to be Jewish is that I am a Jew, period. Whether or not the gentile government I find myself under guarantees my freedom of religious expression doesn't change that fact.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1) Much of my faith requires I deny my children freedom of choice, should I stop doing this as well?

That depends what you mean.

Respect for a person entails, in part, respect for that person's autonomy (as is appropriate, taking into account the person's age and level of development). I would hope that a parent has respect for his children.

2) Being a Jew is a socio-religious identity. Faith plays a part but even those who fall away from Judaism are still considered Jews, both by halachah and often by those in the non-jewish world who view Jews as a race as much as a religious group.

So not being able to participate in any particular practice wouldn't diminish your "Jewishness"?

My right to be Jewish is that I am a Jew, period. Whether or not the gentile government I find myself under guarantees my freedom of religious expression doesn't change that fact.

But secular law is the focus of this thread. Can you tell me how I as a non-Jew, in an intellectually honest way, can support your freedom of religion as well as your desire to deny freedom of religion to your children?