Forgiveness (BTK)

[Todd]

Many of you are probably aware of or have heard of the BTK serial killer. Well, I was reading the attached article, and would like to pose the same question, but on a broader scale. The original question was, can he be forgiven (and this is from a Christian perspective since he claims to be Christian).

The question I want to pose is, according to your belief or faith, could Dennis Rader (aka BTK) be forgiven, by the God you believe in, for the crimes he committed.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/local/12371083.htm

 

[Melody]

If the BTK killer cannot repent and be forgiven by God, then the rest of us have no hope either since the Bible says that one sin is no greater than another.

Yes, I do believe that if he sincerely repents, God will forgive him. His mercy is infinite.

 

[michel]

I must admit that I had never heard of him - but I guess that's not important.


As a Christian, I think he'd be in for a hard time, unless he truly repented. It sounds more like he had a screw loose though, and if he believed he was truly doing his bidding, then I can't see God coming down on him. When I think "What would God do?", I try to imagine what my attitude towards my son would be if he did something bad; for me, that works.

 

[Ryan2065]

The question I want to pose is, according to your belief or faith, could Dennis Rader (aka BTK) be forgiven, by the God you believe in, for the crimes he committed.

He is a psychopath, therefore incapable of remorse. He will not be forgiven.

 

[michel]

He is a psychopath, therefore incapable of remorse. He will not be forgiven.

You quote yourself as being an agnosic, yet you answer "The question I want to pose is, according to your belief or faith, could Dennis Rader (aka BTK) be forgiven, by the God you believe in, for the crimes he committed."

As a Christian, the fact that he is a psychopath means he is unable to understand guilt, or morals; I would say that God would be pretty lenient on him. I am puzzled by your reply though; does your answer mean that that is how you would imagine God to treat him?

 

[Ryan2065]

As a Christian, the fact that he is a psychopath means he is unable to understand guilt, or morals; I would say that God would be pretty lenient on him. I am puzzled by your reply though; does your answer mean that that is how you would imagine God to treat him?

I thought the christian god only forgave those who were truely sorry? This man is a psychopath, he can never be truely sorry. Therefore I just figured he would never be forgiven.

 

[Sabio]

Many of you are probably aware of or have heard of the BTK serial killer. Well, I was reading the attached article, and would like to pose the same question, but on a broader scale. The original question was, can he be forgiven (and this is from a Christian perspective since he claims to be Christian).

The question I want to pose is, according to your belief or faith, could Dennis Rader (aka BTK) be forgiven, by the God you believe in, for the crimes he committed.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/local/12371083.htm

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, sans-serif][size=+1]What is the "unpardonable sin?"[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif][font=Times, Times New Roman][size=+3]A[/font]n unforgivable sin is described in Mark 3 and Matthew 12. These passages involve Jesus Christ's repeated and widespread public defeat of Satan and his demons. Many readers and theologians have been confused about the true nature of this sin. As you read these verses for yourself (below), bear in mind part of the purpose of Jesus Christ's ministry was to directly confront darkness with the light of truth in a public battle of pure good versus pure evil. The only being in the universe that is more powerful than the Evil One, is God. He is the only one with enough power to bind Satan himself and forcibly dispossess him.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]Mark 3:22-30 states,[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif][font=Times, Times New Roman]"And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, 'He has Beelzebub,' and, 'By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.' ...'Assuredly, I [Jesus] say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation;' because they said, 'He has an unclean spirit'" [size=-1](NKJV, emphasis added / Note: The Pharisees made the same charge in Mat 9:34.).

[/font][/size][/font]​

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus says to the Pharisees,[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif][font=Times, Times New Roman]"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come" [size=-1](NKJV, emphasis added).

[/font][/size][/font]​

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]What is the context of these statements, and what is the exact sin described?[/font]

[size=-1][/size][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]The Pharisees had long observed the sinless Jesus Christ. They observed him doing undeniable and powerful miracles that were, at the very least, clear evidence of power supplied by God. These impressive miracles were freely given in pure kindness and love to release people from obvious suffering and the oppression of horrible evil.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]However, the Pharisees had so firmly set their hearts against accepting Jesus as the Messiah that they rejected the obvious truth before them and perversely twisted it to influence the crowds. They publicly credited the most ultimately evil being in the universe with these precious, godly miracles. In other words, they called the precious and holy Spirit of God, the unclean spirit of Satan. In effect, they charged Jesus Christ with sorcery; one who is in league with Satan. These charges are not only appalling and extremely serious, but clearly absurd. As Jesus immediately responded,[/font]

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html

 

[Green Gaia]

I've been thinking about this question in terms of how do UUs respond to someone like BTK. Unitarian Universalism does not have an adequate theology of evil. We would much rather focus on goodness and human potential than on the possibility of human depravity and evil. Our religion is not centered around the ideas of sin and salvation. We do not believe in Hell, and therefore do not believe that people must beg forgiveness to not end up there. We believe that people are punished by their sins, not for them, and that the evil people do lives with them. (That is not to say that violent, dangerous people should not be removed from society.)

Forgiveness for the Unitarian Universalist comes not from God, but from each other. When we wrong others it is from them who we should ask forgiveness.

Can we forgive Dennis Rader? Should we? I think it was Archbishop Desmond Tutu who said that forgiveness is not only possible, but necessary for the future. Not having been personally affected by BTK it would be easy for me to sit here and say yes. If I were a family member of one of his victims or one of his family or even just in the same community as him could I forgive him? Well, I am only human.... so, I don't know if I could, it would be very hard.

 

[TashaN]

I try to imagine what my attitude towards my son would be if he did something bad; for me, that works.

excatly michel i agree with you.

and i add that no one has the right to send any creature whether to Heaven or to Hell because we are in charge in this life only and we can judge all bad people by using jail or anything else.

Nevertheless, Allah ( God ) said in Quran:

And Seek forgiveness of Allah;surely Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate. (73:20)

And whoever does evil, or wrongs his own soul, but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, will find Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate. (4:110)

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

Everyone has the possibility of redemption, no matter what their crimes

 

[Fluffy]

I think that it is necessary to forgive BTK in order for everyone he has affected negatively to put their ordeal behind them. There is no other way forward without some sort of lingering affect allowing him a continued grip on one's life. Forgiveness can eradicate all such things and therefore should be encouraged for the sake of those who were harmed somehow if not because it is the right thing to do.

 

[ChrisP]

I think that it is necessary to forgive BTK in order for everyone he has affected negatively to put their ordeal behind them. There is no other way forward without some sort of lingering affect allowing him a continued grip on one's life. Forgiveness can eradicate all such things and therefore should be encouraged for the sake of those who were harmed somehow if not because it is the right thing to do.

Well put. It is important to forgive, even when those have offended or wronged us are not repentant. I think freeing ourselves of anger, resentment and bitterness is the first step towards forgiving.

 

[KirbyFan101]

If the BTK killer cannot repent and be forgiven by God, then the rest of us have no hope either since the Bible says that one sin is no greater than another.

Yes, I do believe that if he sincerely repents, God will forgive him. His mercy is infinite.

So the BTK killer has as much hope of getting into Heaven as I do?

 

[Todd]

So the BTK killer has as much hope of getting into Heaven as I do?

In my opinion, yes. From my point of view, all sin was created equally. However, he must truly have repented and been saved. Judging from his actions, I would find that hard to believe. Although, who am I to judge, that's up to God.

 

[Warlord]

I believe anyone can be forgiven for their sins, no matter how great or small. Even Hitler could have been forgiven had he repented at the end.

 

[Scuba Pete]

God is able to forgive if he is able to repent.

 

[CMIYC]

I believe anyone can be forgiven for their sins, no matter how great or small. Even Hitler could have been forgiven had he repented at the end.

How do you know Hitler needed to be forgiven? In the OT there were many atrocities against humanity commanded by god. What’s to say this wasn’t another.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Are you suggesting that the Holocaust was God's will? I find that line of thought highly disturbing.

 

[CMIYC]

Are you suggesting that the Holocaust was God's will? I find that line of thought highly disturbing.

Not at all, please take note of some of the atrocities God brought upon people. I won’t include all of them, just some of the harder ones which I find as disgusting as holocaust. do not be deceived, do not go by laws and morals you know but by wisdom of god .God is not always fair but just



Hosea 9:11-16 -The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."



Jeremiah 50:21-22-"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction".



Judges 18:27-29-Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Well, I am glad you think God sided with Hitler. I happen to disagree. The first chapter of Hebrews tells me those days are past.