Formless and Void

[Epic Beard Man]

The heavens do not seem to be the universe. That is the firmament excluding the open firmament of heaven which is the sky. It all there in the KJV.

Outer space is a part of the universe it is only one portion one sees in cognition from their point of view. I think you're making something so simple in being complex.

"In Biblical cosmology, the firmament is the structure above the atmosphere, conceived as a vast solid dome.[1] According to the Genesis creation narrative, God created the firmament to separate the "waters above" the earth from the "waters below" the earth.[2] The word is anglicized from Latin firmamentum, which appears in the Vulgate, a late fourth-century Latin translation of the Bible.........

Like most ancient peoples, the Hebrews believed the sky was a solid dome with the Sun, Moon, planets and stars embedded in it.[7] According to The Jewish Encyclopedia:

The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. So slight is this elevation that birds may rise to it and fly along its expanse."

Firmament - Wikipedia

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The very definition of firmament means "heavens, sky, etc."

Yet in the Biblical account the sky and the firmament are separate things. The heaven was created in Genesis1:1 and the fimament was spoken into existence in Genesis 1:6 on the second day. They can't be the same thing. The sky on the otherhand is refered to as "the open firmament of heaven." Seem to be separate things to me.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Outer space is a part of the universe it is only one portion one sees in cognition from their point of view. I think you're making something so simple in being complex.

"In Biblical cosmology, the firmament is the structure above the atmosphere, conceived as a vast solid dome.[1] According to the Genesis creation narrative, God created the firmament to separate the "waters above" the earth from the "waters below" the earth.[2] The word is anglicized from Latin firmamentum, which appears in the Vulgate, a late fourth-century Latin translation of the Bible.........

Like most ancient peoples, the Hebrews believed the sky was a solid dome with the Sun, Moon, planets and stars embedded in it.[7] According to The Jewish Encyclopedia:

The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. So slight is this elevation that birds may rise to it and fly along its expanse."

That they have a weird view of the cosmos is not relevant to to the narrative. Let's just look at what was written instead of what was written about it. Where the sun the moon and the stars are is outer space. That's the fimament.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Well there is HEAVEN and there are the HEAVENS. I would say heaven conceptually is a destination in the metaphysical realm where souls ascend to, whereas the heavens denote several destinations in the cosmos ergo, the universe, galaxies etc. That is what I would have understood it conceptually.

You get all of that from Genesis1:1?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

That would seem to be pointing to heaven having many levels or dimensions, as you call it, which seems to coincide with with the Hebrew. One heaven. Many aspects. This also puts heaven squarely in the middle of the tangible.

Well yes, though there is some distinction to be made between the heavens as referencing the physical sky above, and heaven of the afterlife, the 'house of my father' - which has many''rooms'.. and some overlap between them seemingly. One of those things I think would/will make sense when we can see the whole picture!

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yet in the Biblical account the sky and the firmament are separate things. The heaven was created in Genesis1:1 and the fimament was spoken into existence in Genesis 1:6 on the second day. They can't be the same thing. The sky on the otherhand is refered to as "the open firmament of heaven." Seem to be separate things to me.

"
One of those issue concerns the second day of creation (Genesis 1:6-8), where God made the “expanse” or the “firmament.” The Hebrew word for this is raqia (pronounced ra-KEE-ah). Biblical scholars understand the raqia to be a solid dome-like structure. It separates the water into two parts, so that there is water above the raqia and water below it (v. 7). The waters above are kept at bay so the world can become inhabitable. On the third day (vv. 9-10), the water below the raqia is “gathered to one place” to form the sea and allow the dry land to appear.

Ancient Israelites “saw” this barrier when they looked up. There were no telescopes, space exploration, or means of testing the atmosphere. They relied on what their senses told them. Even today, looking up at a clear sky in open country, the sky seems to “begin” at the horizons and reaches up far above. Ancient Israelites and others in that part of the world assumed the world was flat, and so it looked like the earth is covered by a dome, and the “blue sky” is the “water above” held back by the raqia. The translation “firmament” (i.e., firm) gets across this idea of a solid structure."

The Firmament of Genesis 1 is Solid but That’s Not the Point

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Well yes, though there is some distinction to be made between the heavens as referencing the physical sky above, and heaven of the afterlife, the 'house of my father' - which has many''rooms'.. and some overlap between them seemingly. One of those things I think would/will make sense when we can see the whole picture!

An astute answer. So was the heaven of 1:1 the heaven where "the house of my father" is.

 

[allfoak]

The world that was formed in Genesis1:1 was formless and void according to Genesis1:2. This sounds like a good way to describe the indescribable. This leaves me to wonder, what was the nature of heaven in 1:1. Was it describable?

It is the same as the womb of a woman before she becomes pregnant.
There was no life until a thought from father god entered the formless and void womb of mother god.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It is the same as the womb of a woman before she becomes pregnant.
There was no life until a thought from father god entered the formless and void womb of mother god.

That's nice.

 

[allfoak]

That's nice.

Thank you.
As above so below.

 

[Deeje]

An astute answer. So was the heaven of 1:1 the heaven where "the house of my father" is.

No...this is referring to the 'physical' heavens. The 'spiritual heavens' is where God and his angels reside. This realm was in existence before the earth was made habitable, which is why Earth is described as "formless and waste". This was the chosen planet that God prepared to host an abundance of life. This "Goldilocks" planet was just right for God's purpose.....and, I believe, the start of many habitations to come.....and eternity to accomplish it.

There is one word for "heaven" in the Bible, but it has different meanings. Let's see if we can simplify the subject by breaking it down to its Biblical definitions....

The Hebrew sha·maʹyim (always in the plural), which is rendered “heaven(s),” seems to have the basic sense of that which is high or lofty. (Psalm 103:11; Proverbs 25:3; Isaiah 55:9)

Heavens of earth’s atmosphere. “The heaven(s)” may apply to the full range of earth’s atmosphere in which dew and frost form (Genesis 27:28; Job 38:29), the birds fly (Deuteronomy 4:17; Proverbs 30:19; Ma thew 6:26), the winds blow (Psalm 78:26), lightning flashes (Luke 17:24), and the clouds float and drop their rain, snow, or hailstones (Joshua 10:11; 1Kings 18:45; Isaiah 55:10; Acts 14:17). “The sky” is sometimes meant, that is, the apparent or visual dome or vault arching over the earth.—Matthew 16:1-3; Acts 1:10, 11.

This atmospheric region corresponds generally to the “expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ]” formed during the second creative "day", described at Genesis 1:6-8. It is evidently to this ‘heaven’ that Genesis 2:4; Exodus 20:11; 31:17 refer in speaking of the creation of “the heavens and the earth.”

Outer space. The physical “heavens” extend through earth’s atmosphere and beyond to the regions of outer space with their stellar bodies, “all the army of the heavens”---sun, moon, stars, and constellations. (Deuteronomy 4:19; Isaiah 13:10; 1Corinthians 15:40, 41; Hebrews 11:12) The first verse of the Bible describes the creation of such starry heavens prior to the development of earth for human habitation. (Genesis 1:1) These heavens show forth God’s glory, even as does the expanse of atmosphere, being the work of God’s “fingers.” (Psalm 8:3; 19:1-6)

“Midheaven” The expression “midheaven” applies to the region within earth’s expanse of atmosphere where birds, such as the eagle, fly. (Revelation 8:13; 14:6; 19:17; Deuteronomy 4:11

Spiritual Heavens. The same original-language words used for the physical heavens are also applied to the spiritual heavens. As has been seen. . . God does not reside in the physical heavens, being a Spirit. However, since he is “the High and Lofty One” who resides in “the height” (Isaiah 57:15), the basic sense of that which is “lifted up” or “lofty” expressed in the Hebrew-language word makes it appropriate to describe God’s “lofty abode of holiness and beauty.” (Isaiah 63:15; Psalm 33:13, 14; 115:3)

As the Maker of the physical heavens (Genesis 14:19; Psalm 33:6), Jehovah is also their Owner. (Psalm 115:15, 16) Whatever is his pleasure to do in them, he does, including miraculous acts.—Psalm 135:6.

Jesus. . . .used the heavens as representing God when asking the religious leaders whether the source of John’s baptism was “from heaven or from men.” (Matthew 21:25; compare John 3:27.) The prodigal son confessed to having sinned “against heaven” as well as against his own father. (Luke 15:18, 21)

“The kingdom of the heavens,” then, means not merely that it is based in and rules from the spiritual heavens but also that it is “the kingdom of God.”—Daniel 2:44; Matthew 4:17; 21:43; 2Timothy 4:18."

Exerpts from Heaven — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I hope that helps.

 

[David T]

The world that was formed in Genesis1:1 was formless and void according to Genesis1:2. This sounds like a good way to describe the indescribable. This leaves me to wonder, what was the nature of heaven in 1:1. Was it describable?

I love this site. I read the comments. It's like like like you ask please sing me a song.... And muzak. Omg science fiction muzak.. No not that bad its like comic con science fiction muzak...no not that good it's like I heard about comic con science fiction muzak. Btw in the original void doesn't exist. In fact void literally doesn't exist till about the 1500's or so. Ex nihilo was a philosophy fantasy developed by the accedemic comic con folks my degree.

Originally back in time of the bible writings God created or brought out of chaos not nothing. But you seemed fascinated by the story opening pan shot... odd.

Btw it takes something to conceptualization nothing.. nothing cannot conceptualization something. Nothing only exists between the ears therefore nothing has no clue about something.
...

 

[sandy whitelinger]

No...this is referring to the 'physical' heavens. The 'spiritual heavens' is where God and his angels reside. This realm was in existence before the earth was made habitable, which is why Earth is described as "formless and waste". This was the chosen planet that God prepared to host an abundance of life. This "Goldilocks" planet was just right for God's purpose.....and, I believe, the start of many habitations to come.....and eternity to accomplish it.

There is one word for "heaven" in the Bible, but it has different meanings. Let's see if we can simplify the subject by breaking it down to its Biblical definitions....

The Hebrew sha·maʹyim (always in the plural), which is rendered “heaven(s),” seems to have the basic sense of that which is high or lofty. (Psalm 103:11; Proverbs 25:3; Isaiah 55:9)

Heavens of earth’s atmosphere. “The heaven(s)” may apply to the full range of earth’s atmosphere in which dew and frost form (Genesis 27:28; Job 38:29), the birds fly (Deuteronomy 4:17; Proverbs 30:19; Ma thew 6:26), the winds blow (Psalm 78:26), lightning flashes (Luke 17:24), and the clouds float and drop their rain, snow, or hailstones (Joshua 10:11; 1Kings 18:45; Isaiah 55:10; Acts 14:17). “The sky” is sometimes meant, that is, the apparent or visual dome or vault arching over the earth.—Matthew 16:1-3; Acts 1:10, 11.

This atmospheric region corresponds generally to the “expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ]” formed during the second creative "day", described at Genesis 1:6-8. It is evidently to this ‘heaven’ that Genesis 2:4; Exodus 20:11; 31:17 refer in speaking of the creation of “the heavens and the earth.”

Outer space. The physical “heavens” extend through earth’s atmosphere and beyond to the regions of outer space with their stellar bodies, “all the army of the heavens”---sun, moon, stars, and constellations. (Deuteronomy 4:19; Isaiah 13:10; 1Corinthians 15:40, 41; Hebrews 11:12) The first verse of the Bible describes the creation of such starry heavens prior to the development of earth for human habitation. (Genesis 1:1) These heavens show forth God’s glory, even as does the expanse of atmosphere, being the work of God’s “fingers.” (Psalm 8:3; 19:1-6)

“Midheaven” The expression “midheaven” applies to the region within earth’s expanse of atmosphere where birds, such as the eagle, fly. (Revelation 8:13; 14:6; 19:17; Deuteronomy 4:11

Spiritual Heavens. The same original-language words used for the physical heavens are also applied to the spiritual heavens. As has been seen. . . God does not reside in the physical heavens, being a Spirit. However, since he is “the High and Lofty One” who resides in “the height” (Isaiah 57:15), the basic sense of that which is “lifted up” or “lofty” expressed in the Hebrew-language word makes it appropriate to describe God’s “lofty abode of holiness and beauty.” (Isaiah 63:15; Psalm 33:13, 14; 115:3)

As the Maker of the physical heavens (Genesis 14:19; Psalm 33:6), Jehovah is also their Owner. (Psalm 115:15, 16) Whatever is his pleasure to do in them, he does, including miraculous acts.—Psalm 135:6.

Jesus. . . .used the heavens as representing God when asking the religious leaders whether the source of John’s baptism was “from heaven or from men.” (Matthew 21:25; compare John 3:27.) The prodigal son confessed to having sinned “against heaven” as well as against his own father. (Luke 15:18, 21)

“The kingdom of the heavens,” then, means not merely that it is based in and rules from the spiritual heavens but also that it is “the kingdom of God.”—Daniel 2:44; Matthew 4:17; 21:43; 2Timothy 4:18."

Exerpts from Heaven — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I hope that helps.

This is an answer that is on point. It brought up something I've seen yet no one has ever brought up and that is when was the sky created? It shows up in Genesis 1:20 as the open firmament of heaven. It's not clear when it was formed.
What is clear is that the firmament of heaven was formed on the second day and is where the sun the moon and the stars are (Genesis 1:14-18) which clearly makes this outer space and not the heaven of 1:1.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I love this site. I read the comments. It's like like like you ask please sing me a song.... And muzak. Omg science fiction muzak.. No not that bad its like comic con science fiction muzak...no not that good it's like I heard about comic con science fiction muzak.

The new age movement started a whole process of fuzzy feel good thinking. In the real search for the ethereal their thinking became ethereal.

Btw in the original void doesn't exist. In fact void literally doesn't exist till about the 1500's or so. Ex nihilo was a philosophy fantasy developed by the accedemic comic con folks my degree.

Jaywalker seems to be trying to make a point about the void but he's an ethereal presence at best.

Originally back in time of the bible writings God created or brought out of chaos not nothing. But you seemed fascinated by the story opening pan shot... odd.

I like to start at the beginning. Every story needs a firm foundation and that is Genesis when it comes to understanding the Biblical world. Imo.

Btw it takes something to conceptualization nothing.. nothing cannot conceptualization something. Nothing only exists between the ears therefore nothing has no clue about something.
...

Since we can't conceptualize nothing I think it's impossible to speak of the abilities of nothing.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

"
One of those issue concerns the second day of creation (Genesis 1:6-8), where God made the “expanse” or the “firmament.” The Hebrew word for this is raqia (pronounced ra-KEE-ah). Biblical scholars understand the raqia to be a solid dome-like structure. It separates the water into two parts, so that there is water above the raqia and water below it (v. 7). The waters above are kept at bay so the world can become inhabitable. On the third day (vv. 9-10), the water below the raqia is “gathered to one place” to form the sea and allow the dry land to appear.

Ancient Israelites “saw” this barrier when they looked up. There were no telescopes, space exploration, or means of testing the atmosphere. They relied on what their senses told them. Even today, looking up at a clear sky in open country, the sky seems to “begin” at the horizons and reaches up far above. Ancient Israelites and others in that part of the world assumed the world was flat, and so it looked like the earth is covered by a dome, and the “blue sky” is the “water above” held back by the raqia. The translation “firmament” (i.e., firm) gets across this idea of a solid structure."

The Firmament of Genesis 1 is Solid but That’s Not the Point

This seems to be an interpretation of a pretty effed up model of the world. Do we still want to use a geocentric model of the firmament also.
I believe there is more meaning to the very opening of my scriptures than trying to fit it into that perverted view of my reality.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There seems to be a discrepancy in the meaning of the nature of the world ...

That is far from the critical distinction. At issue is whether the opening verses, when seen to be in the construct form, assert creatio ex nihilo rather than the instantiation of a cosmos out of a primordial chaos.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That is far from the critical distinction. At issue is whether the opening verses, when seen to be in the construct form, assert creatio ex nihilo rather than the instantiation of a cosmos out of a primordial chaos.

Thank you for an informational reply. At this point of my inquiry I'm leaning toward an intervention concerning the primordial chaos. Less of the nature of the intervention but the nature of the results. This is the crux of my op.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

At this point of my inquiry I'm leaning toward an intervention concerning the primordial chaos

I have no idea what that sentence means. But tell me, what body of scholarship informs this 'leaning'?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I have no idea what that sentence means. But tell me, what body of scholarship informs this 'leaning'?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your use of the word instantiation. I took this to mean God forming heaven and earth out what already existed, the primordial chaos.
As to the scholarship I'm using, right now this you. I have a general understanding of the basics of Biblical theology, the basic physics of the big bang concept, Taoist cosmology, and a vague understanding of quantum physics and a strong understanding of the English language. I'm no scholar but I have an inquiring mind and am ready to be proven wrong. Prolly not not your personal ideal sounding board.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You don't seem too knowledgable of spherical trigonometry nor cosmology.