Free Tibet

[JewishLeftist]

The Olympics are over but the struggle of the Tibetan people and its working class against the Chinese Imperialists and the Chinese KKKapitalist Party (no, I will not call it "communist") is still ongoing. The Tibetan people are bravely struggling for their human rights today. The right to religious freedom. The right to control their own means of production, instead of having them controlled by an industrial hedgemon thousands of miles away. The right to not have their country flooded by Chinese immigrants.

I was a member of Students for a Free Tibet before. I still support Tibet's independence under the rallying cry "Tibet for Tibetans", for them to preserve their own rich, diverse, cultural heritage.

Who else here supports this?

(If you don't agree with the above and want to debate it, please create a separate "debate" thread for that purpose. This thread is for Tibet supporters only.)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

(If you are of Chinese descent and/or do not support a Free Tibet, please don't post here, but create a "debate" thread instead.)

What an outlandishly gutless, bigoted, and repugnant 'request'!​

 

[Caladan]

If you are trying to make a case for Tibet, I don't think this little rant is very constructive for the cause.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hi JL,

I support a free Tibet, but I'm curious why you would request that those of Chinese descent not post here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has always encouraged those of us who are against the cultural genocide that has been happening to remain focused on open dialogue for further understanding between the two factions and platforms.

The problem is much more complicated, too, and their government hasn't just been committing atrocities against Tibetans. There have been many other ethnicities and religious groups within China that have felt pain and suffering, too.

 

[Hyperborean]

Now that JewishLeftist has apparently lifted his ban on those of Chinese descent posting in this thread, I am going to post a few "devil's advocate" questions. I will even honor your request, JL, that I post the heavier debate regarding historical aspects in another thread, which I have yet to create.

1) How can one plan to free the Tibetans from the CPC by being even more communistic than they are?

2) If, hypothetically, Tibet became free in 1951, would China be criticized today for not "helping" the Tibetan country, or even deporting illegal immigrants of Tibetan descent?

3) Along the lines of #2, if, hypothetically, China were to let Tibet go free this very day, do you think China should take with it investment that it has put into Tibet?

4) If the Tibetan government had not changed from its status in 1951, would the US have invaded them at some point for not being "democratic" enough? On a similar note, how do you think they could have transitioned from the feudalistic system into a more "modern" system?

5) Would you want to see Tibetans adopt certain modern values which are present in America, even if it goes to the detriment of their "traditional way of life"?

and finally,

6) How can we reconcile the differences between the self-proclaimed liberal agenda of "a world without borders", but at the same time promote secessionism of a region, recognized by the UN as part of another nation, thereby creating another border?

 

[JewishLeftist]

Now that JewishLeftist has apparently lifted his ban on those of Chinese descent posting in this thread, I am going to post a few "devil's advocate" questions. I will even honor your request, JL, that I post the heavier debate regarding historical aspects in another thread, which I have yet to create.

1) How can one plan to free the Tibetans from the CPC by being even more communistic than they are?

2) If, hypothetically, Tibet became free in 1951, would China be criticized today for not "helping" the Tibetan country, or even deporting illegal immigrants of Tibetan descent?

3) Along the lines of #2, if, hypothetically, China were to let Tibet go free this very day, do you think China should take with it investment that it has put into Tibet?

4) If the Tibetan government had not changed from its status in 1951, would the US have invaded them at some point for not being "democratic" enough? On a similar note, how do you think they could have transitioned from the feudalistic system into a more "modern" system?

5) Would you want to see Tibetans adopt certain modern values which are present in America, even if it goes to the detriment of their "traditional way of life"?

and finally,

6) How can we reconcile the differences between the self-proclaimed liberal agenda of "a world without borders", but at the same time promote secessionism of a region, recognized by the UN as part of another nation, thereby creating another border?

Hmm... do you ever try to contribute to discussions or do you just ask ridiculous questions to take attention away from the issue. Or are you just one of the so-called "Chinese internet police" that they hires ( China sending virtual police on cyber-patrols - Breaking - Technology - smh.com.au ) to come on the internet to post propaganda? Lets just say that I think that Tibet should be its own country because it's the right thing to do.

The answer to the first question is that I am not "more communist" than the Chinese gov't because I am not the same kind of communist. In fact China is not communist at all. It was stalinist (aka State-Capitalist) for a while then went to complete communism. I am personally a socialist and think that Tibet could have become socialist eventually without being invaded by the Chinese military.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hmm... do you ever try to contribute to discussions ...

Interesting question given your disgusting opening remarks. Should you become honestly interested in what a real contribution might look like, I would suggest that you look here.

 

[3.14]

why create another border just because they can't work out there difrences, don't the tibetans adhere to teaching of harmony? why not apply that?

 

[Hyperborean]

Interesting question given your disgusting opening remarks. Should you become honestly interested in what a real contribution might look like, I would suggest that you look here.

JS, It's okay. He changed his request for those who don't agree not to post. I paid close attention to media coverage of the March riots, and the Olympics. I saw protests and counter-protests on the issue, so I certainly understand that there are people who are very passionate about this issue. This may make them feel uncomfortable discussing it with people of Chinese descent.

It is the same attitude of certain ultra-partisan individuals in the US who refuse to talk to people from the opposite political party.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

JS, It's okay. He changed his request for those who don't agree not to post. I paid close attention to media coverage of the March riots, and the Olympics. I saw protests and counter-protests on the issue, so I certainly understand that there are people who are very passionate about this issue. This may make them feel uncomfortable discussing it with people of Chinese descent.

It is the same attitude of certain ultra-partisan individuals in the US who refuse to talk to people from the opposite political party.

And you did raise some very good points to consider, too, I should add.

Like I've said before, this is certainly not as simple and black-and-white as many people here in the West think. Tibet has a history that isn't as rosy as people would like to believe. And because of this, I can understand the motivations of the opposing viewpoint.

 

[JewishLeftist]

Hyperboran, do you support Intolerance? Tibet may not have been perfect but it does not give the Chinese the right to perpetrate genocide against them IN THE 21st CENTURY. To me, it is just as bad as what White settlers did to the Native Americans.

China's oppression of Tibet reveals a country of intolerance | NevadaAppeal.com

"Even in Tibet, I knew how it was with an April day. It was sunny and breezy, cold and warm, with clear dry thin air at 12,000 feet in Lhasa, the capital city of Tibet in April 2005. It felt like home.

I visited Tibet during a three week tour of China and Tibet with friends from Carson City. The recent riots in Tibet combined with Carson City's blossoming April weather bring back memories of our adventure into the world of Tibet.

From our government-owned hotel in Lhasa, we could see mountains fringing the city, looking enough like Nevada to be familiar. They weren't the towering jagged peaks of National Geographic specials, but were still mountains - steep, snowcapped, fireplace ash gray, and treeless."

"It seemed to me that China was becoming a capitalistic society, very much in the image of the United States, but unable or unwilling to avoid our mistakes."

"By trying to eradicate the beliefs and culture of Tibet, China has drawn attention to its oppressive policies, and the degree to which it will not tolerate cultural or religious differences."

Abby Johnson is a resident of Carson City, and a part-time resident of Baker, Nev. She consults on community development and nuclear waste issues.

 

[Hyperborean]

Hyperboran, do you support Intolerance? Tibet may not have been perfect but it does not give the Chinese the right to perpetrate genocide against them IN THE 21st CENTURY. To me, it is just as bad as what White settlers did to the Native Americans.

I do not support intolerance. I have no hatred of Tibetans based on their ethnicity or religion. To play the race card in this situation is a red herring used by those who want to put this argument into a black-and-white framework.

On a side note, it seems that your article was rather condescending towards Tibetans, as it calls them "primitive". That is an insult to the Tibetans who value their culture.

 

[Surya Deva]

Why dialogue? As far as I can see it China has invaded a soverign country, just because it can.

 

[JewishLeftist]

Why dialogue? As far as I can see it China has invaded a soverign country, just because it can.

Exactly. There is nothing to negotiate, other than the fact that China needs to recognize Tibet's right to exist. There is no debate about that.

It is precisely the same thing that the Arab countries did to Israel, when seven countries invaded Israel "just because they could".

 

[darkendless]

Western Media has done a good job of making China out to be a heartless state with no compassion for poor tibet. Whether that is true or not who knows, all we get shown is both sides slandering at each other through the media who love to add their own little remarks about whos right, who wrong, who's suffering and who the tyrants are.

Sure Tibet should be free of China IMO, but on this issue i don't believe everything i see, much like the Israel/Palestine situation.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Free Tibet
The Olympics are over but the struggle of the Tibetan people and its working class against the Chinese Imperialists and the Chinese KKKapitalist Party (no, I will not call it "communist") is still ongoing. The Tibetan people are bravely struggling for their human rights today. The right to religious freedom. The right to control their own means of production, instead of having them controlled by an industrial hedgemon thousands of miles away. The right to not have their country flooded by Chinese immigrants.

I was a member of Students for a Free Tibet before. I still support Tibet's independence under the rallying cry "Tibet for Tibetans", for them to preserve their own rich, diverse, cultural heritage.

Who else here supports this?

Surely those who feel something or those who are sensitive to something has to do something about it.

Personally see it this Way.
Tibet is all about buddhism.
Did buddha have any kingdom?
Did he have any possessions?
what did he want?
STILL, he was the kings of kings.
Nirvana is all that he wanted humanity to reach and for that no kingdom, country is a must.
Change is permanent, so will China and so will the earth one day but nirvana is outside the purview of change.
Lao Tsu had similar message that one needs to be just a flow, no attachments.
Love & rgds

 

[JewishLeftist]

Friends,



Surely those who feel something or those who are sensitive to something has to do something about it.

Personally see it this Way.
Tibet is all about buddhism.
Did buddha have any kingdom?
Did he have any possessions?
what did he want?
STILL, he was the kings of kings.
Nirvana is all that he wanted humanity to reach and for that no kingdom, country is a must.
Change is permanent, so will China and so will the earth one day but nirvana is outside the purview of change.
Lao Tsu had similar message that one needs to be just a flow, no attachments.
Love & rgds

That is very nice, but I am a secular humanist/socialist. Buddhism is a decent religion, but still I am concerned with the human aspects of this situation especially given that China is in fact a fascist nation despite what the name of the ruling party is. The media here in the states only pretends that they are communist -- when in fact they are the same breed of reactionaries as the Republican Party -- because the American media itself is very right-wing.

 

[zenzero]

Friend JL,
Humans every where are the same.
Those who are slaves of their minds are DEAD and still evolving BUT only those who still their mind are LIVING and also revolutionaries.
Love & rgds

 

[Hyperborean]

Western Media has done a good job of making China out to be a heartless state with no compassion for poor tibet. Whether that is true or not who knows, all we get shown is both sides slandering at each other through the media who love to add their own little remarks about whos right, who wrong, who's suffering and who the tyrants are.

While it is easy to sympathize with the underdog, the situation in Tibet is in fact much more complicated than the story you will get on the streets from protestors, or from the Chinese government for that matter. I myself have researched the historical aspects of the debate. For a modern perspective, here are a few articles to read on Tibet, from third-party sources:

Beware of Fantasy by Charley Reese (Charley Reese (born January 29, 1937) is a syndicated columnist known for his plainspoken manner and conservative views. He was associated with the Orlando Sentinel from 1971-2001, both as a writer and in various editorial capacities. King Features Syndicate distributes his column, which comes out three times each week.)

The American Conservative -- Radical Chic; Why Liberals Love Tibet by Brendan O'Neil (Brendan O'Neill is a London based journalist and editor of the website Spiked Online. His articles have appeared in journals such as the Spectator, the New Statesman, The Guardian, BBC News Online, and the Christian Science Monitor.)

 

[darkendless]

While it is easy to sympathize with the underdog, the situation in Tibet is in fact much more complicated than the story you will get on the streets from protestors, or from the Chinese government for that matter. I myself have researched the historical aspects of the debate. For a modern perspective, here are a few articles to read on Tibet, from third-party sources:

Beware of Fantasy by Charley Reese (Charley Reese (born January 29, 1937) is a syndicated columnist known for his plainspoken manner and conservative views. He was associated with the Orlando Sentinel from 1971-2001, both as a writer and in various editorial capacities. King Features Syndicate distributes his column, which comes out three times each week.)

The American Conservative -- Radical Chic; Why Liberals Love Tibet by Brendan O'Neil (Brendan O'Neill is a London based journalist and editor of the website Spiked Online. His articles have appeared in journals such as the Spectator, the New Statesman, The Guardian, BBC News Online, and the Christian Science Monitor.)

See that was my point exactly. Without research, all we see is that China is occupying poor Tibet who are an independent state. From those articles Tibet is part of China. I never knew Tibet was a part of China, and im sure many of the people who are sucked in by western media get into a fit of rage when they don't even know the truth.

Fine articles though, enjoyed reading them, Frubals