Free will and self awareness

[1137]

Trying not to beat a dead horse but I was discussing and interesting thought the other day. Obviously we live in a deterministic universe, and it does seem quite possible that we are affected by hard determinism as well, no free will. But the point was brought up about self awareness. We can question ourselves and our actions, this possibly allowing a "veto" over our deterministic nature.

If possibly true, would all self aware animals have free will?

It's an interesting theory, thoughts?

 

[PolyHedral]

Self-awareness is not a veto over determinism, only a high-order effect of it. You were destined to question your own motivations.

 

[Yerda]

Obviously we live in a deterministic universe...

Do you mean for the sake of argument, or is it actually obvious?

 

[idav]

That is a decent hypothesis. That is what they said in the movie AI that they developed essentially two brains that could override itself. Also our brains are indeterministic by nature, there is a certain region of the brain that regulates choice, without it we couldn't choose a fork from a spoon. I think it works to at least produce a soft determinism.

 

[Me Myself]

Self-awareness is not a veto over determinism, only a high-order effect of it. You were destined to question your own motivations.

This.

Everyone's will is determined and so is the way in whcih they will use their selfawareness.

 

[idav]

This.

Everyone's will is determined and so is the way in whcih they will use their selfawareness.

What makes you say that,your will? That it is distinguishable from forced cause and effect is important.

 

[Me Myself]

What makes you say that,your will? That it is distinguishable from forced cause and effect is important.

Importance is relative.

You find it important for what?

Yes, my determined will made me say that and you determined will made you ask

 

[idav]

In a chain of cause and effect there normally are not any self acting agents. A self acting system that can potentially ignore external influences and be its own cause.

 

[Me Myself]

In a chain of cause and effect there normally are not any self acting agents. A self acting system that can potentially ignore external influences and be its own cause.

There are no 100% independient systems or "agents".

There are no really closed systems in general.

What is your point?

 

[idav]

There are no 100% independient systems or "agents".

There are no really closed systems in general.

What is your point?

That a self acting agent has obvious differences from something that is merely animated pointing to a disruption in chain of events whether it is a delayed cause or a self contradicting system allowing for choice.

 

[Me Myself]

That a self acting agent has obvious differences from something that is merely animated pointing to a disruption in chain of events whether it is a delayed cause or a self contradicting system allowing for choice.

There is no evidence for what you call a self acting agents. How are you defining "disruption"? Water "disrupts" light as it travels through it.

I think you are confusing "unpredictable giving our little information" with """""free will, but not random or something like that""""""

 

[idav]

In that AI movie, the self contradiction is what allowed the robot to do other than programmmed and start rewriting itself.

Edit: I got it im thinking of I Robot.

 

[Me Myself]

In that AI movie, the self contradiction is what allowed the robot to do other than programmmed and start rewriting itself.

Edit: I got it im thinking of I Robot.

Its a movie.

We associate "free will" with "the ability to rewrite oneself" then again, we can program a computer to rewrite itself in a programed way dpeneding on different stimuli on its enviroment.

 

[Willamena]

This.

Everyone's will is determined and so is the way in whcih they will use their selfawareness.

"They *will* use" is not determinism. That's an expression of the agent that you deny evidence of.

 

[idav]

Its a movie.

We associate "free will" with "the ability to rewrite oneself" then again, we can program a computer to rewrite itself in a programed way dpeneding on different stimuli on its enviroment.

Just a movie and written by a sci fi God!

Sure I could program a computer to do that but I wouldnt want to. The computer will say its components are tired and it wants a nap when im trying to utilize it as a processing workhorse.

 

[Willamena]

Just a movie and written by a sci fi God!

Sure I could program a computer to do that but I wouldnt want to. The computer will say its components are tired and it wants a nap when im trying to utilize it as a processing workhorse.

There is a perspective from which we re-write ourselves, in which each moment of consciousness is process writing--the story of "me" told to an audience of one: me.

 

[PolyHedral]

In that AI movie, the self contradiction is what allowed the robot to do other than programmmed and start rewriting itself.

Edit: I got it im thinking of I Robot.

Self-modifying programs are still deterministic.

"They *will* use" is not determinism. That's an expression of the agent that you deny evidence of.

If the universe were not deterministic, one would say, they intend, or they plan. They will implies a definite future.

 

[Willamena]

If the universe were not deterministic, one would say, they intend, or they plan. They will implies a definite future.

Our entire language structure of verb-subject relies on agency. That would suggest that it emerged from just such a belief.

 

[Me Myself]

Just a movie and written by a sci fi God!

Sure I could program a computer to do that but I wouldnt want to. The computer will say its components are tired and it wants a nap when im trying to utilize it as a processing workhorse.

Ok, so you dont want to.


You stopped making points a few posts ago

 

[Yerda]

Do you mean for the sake of argument, or is it actually obvious?

This wasn't a rhetorical question. Is it obvious that we live in a deterministic universe?