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Free-will and sin.

chinu

chinu
In the first place -- we all were one with God (Oneness). That oneness has its own free-will.
In the second place -- we aparted from God. Now, God has its own free-will and we all have our own free-will.

We aparted from God was the first-sin that we did that time using our free-will.
Chain of sins started from this first-sin.

Do you find any defect in the statement above ?
 

chinu

chinu
Sin is an immoral act or transgression against divine law. I do not have a god to sit on my shoulder dictating archaic laws, therefore no sin.
You are welcome to your beliefs, just don't force them onto me.
You are saying; "Sin is an immoral act or transgression against divine law"
If you don't belive in the existence of sin, then you don't have the right to define sin.

As an atheist what made you think that this is true definition of sin ?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
You are saying; "Sin is an immoral act or transgression against divine law"
If you don't belive in the existence of sin, then you don't have the right to define sin.

As an atheist what made you think that this is true definition of sin ?

I don't define it, it is already defined

Why do i think its a true definition, because it is from the Oxford English dictionary, you have a problem with it then soeak to them
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Yes, I disagree with all of it.

I do not believe that we were all "one with God" at some point, unless by "God" you mean the nebula that our sun formed from, which contained most of the atoms that compose our flesh today. I would not consider that nebula to have free-will, though.

I also would not consider any of us to have existed at that point, either. I think we are somewhat of a "ship of Theseus" problem, because there's a debate to be had about when "we" really begin and when "we" really end. At some point during or after conception, molecules eventually reach an arrangement that we would call "us." At some point during or after death, those molecules undergo physical and chemical changes until they become unrecognizable as "us;" personally, I would consider brain death to be the marker for when "we" stop existing.

I also do not agree that there is a God or that we have free will, so I cannot affirm the second part of your statement, either. I think we are the product of deterministic natural forces which have certain mathematical patterns to them, but are nonetheless mindless.

I think what we call a "mind" is merely an abstraction of a certain kind of computational system, the most well-known example being the neural activity of our brains. We call the output of this computational process a "choice," but that choice was always fated to be made. There was never any ability for us to have "chosen differently" or a future where we did not make that choice.

As far as I can tell, our choices are simply a product of how our genetic predispositions are conditioned by our environment, so they are always fixed. The deliberation that we make before we decide upon something is, itself, a linear process of cascading effects from causes that we have no direct control over. It gives us an illusion of agency only due to our limited cognition, since we cannot fully comprehend the multitude of processes that our nervous system undergoes which generate mental activity, but we have become increasingly aware of this through study and experimentation.

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, "sin" is a concept that other people use. I can describe what is considered sinful according to certain philosophies and scriptural interpretations, but I'm not sure that I would confidently assert that anything is a sin, myself. As such, I don't think I would consider departure from God to be a sin. If I was to use the language of "sin" at all, I would reserve it for describing vice and passion, and I do not see anything vicious or passionate about self-generation by itself.

There may have been a vicious or passionate reason for self-generation, in which case I might be able to agree that doing so would be sinful, but you haven't really gone into detail on that. Speaking for myself, I have never been one with God and I never chose to separate myself from that oneness, so I have no frame of reference for why you might have chosen to do something like that. Maybe some people who chose to separate had good reasons for doing so, how would I know?
 

chinu

chinu
I don't define it, it is already defined

Why do i think its a true definition, because it is from the Oxford English dictionary, you have a problem with it then soeak to them
I don't have any problem with Oxford English dictionary.

Am just surprised seeing an atheist using definition of sin. Using the definition of sin also proves existence of sin :)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In the first place -- we all were one with God (Oneness). That oneness has its own free-will.
In the second place -- we aparted from God. Now, God has its own free-will and we all have our own free-will.

We aparted from God was the first-sin that we did that time using our free-will.
Chain of sins started from this first-sin.

Do you find any defect in the statement above ?

I don't recall choosing to commit what you say is the "first-sin." I was just born here; I didn't choose to be born.
 

chinu

chinu
Yes, I disagree with all of it.

I do not believe that we were all "one with God" at some point, unless by "God" you mean the nebula that our sun formed from, which contained most of the atoms that compose our flesh today. I would not consider that nebula to have free-will, though.
From God came light and sound >> light and sound further created countless nebula's >> that further created countless suns >> out of which our sun is one of them.

Yes, I believe this.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I don't have any problem with Oxford English dictionary.

Am just surprised seeing an atheist using definition of sin. Using the definition of sin also proves existence of sin :)

What? I speak the English language, sin is a word of the English language, bring an atheist does not mean i speak a different language
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Human memory is limited of remembering.

The fallibility of human memory is the best evidence against any concepts of "free will." How can our will be "free" if we can't even control our own mind and memory?
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
From God came light and sound >> light and sound further created countless nebula's >> that further created countless suns >> out of which our sun is one of them.

Yes, I believe this.
Interesting.

I think nebulas are created by more than photons and acoustic waves. I think they require a good range of elementary particles to compose them as well as the fundamental forces to act on those particles in order to actually form the nebula. I don't think light and sound alone could do that.

The elementary particles were formed during the electroweak epoch and the fundamental forces emerged shortly afterwards during the quark epoch, I think, although my understanding of the quantum physics of the early universe is admittedly amateur.

I think these formations are explainable well enough without the involvement of a God. I would go a step further and say that I'm pretty sure, given what we know about this process, that there is no room for a God to have intervened at all.

If you're going to use God to explain away something we don't understand yet, I think you're going to have to go further back than sound and light. We have a fairly decent understanding of those now. Just be careful that you don't place God outside of time, because that would put him outside of causality, too, and so he wouldn't be able to cause or create anything.
 

chinu

chinu
Do you remember being in a state of oneness with God and choosing to depart from him? If so, was I there?

If not, why do you so willingly take responsibility for a crime you can't even remember committing?
I am in contact with people who re-united back with God and I 100% trust them.
According to them; yes we all came from there.

Whether or not I take responsibility, I will definitely get punishment if I have done something bad in the past.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I am in contact with people who re-united back with God and I 100% trust them.
According to them; yes we all came from there.

Whether or not I take responsibility, I will definitely get punishment if I have done something bad in the past.
Do you believe them only because you trust them, not because they've provided any scientific evidence?
 

chinu

chinu
Interesting.

I think nebulas are created by more than photons and acoustic waves. I think they require a good range of elementary particles to compose them as well as the fundamental forces to act on those particles in order to actually form the nebula. I don't think light and sound alone could do that.

The elementary particles were formed during the electroweak epoch and the fundamental forces emerged shortly afterwards during the quark epoch, I think, although my understanding of the quantum physics of the early universe is admittedly amateur.

I think these formations are explainable well enough without the involvement of a God. I would go a step further and say that I'm pretty sure, given what we know about this process, that there is no room for a God to have intervened at all.

If you're going to use God to explain away something we don't understand yet, I think you're going to have to go further back than sound and light. We have a fairly decent understanding of those now. Just be careful that you don't place God outside of time, because that would put him outside of causality, too, and so he wouldn't be able to cause or create anything.
No guesses please. Please come-up with something that you are sure of.
 
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